Peter Sagan....it was just a pinch (Page 11)

No, I think people do understand how it is defined, but and that they are underestimating that number for different reasons.

You said you would be annoyed.  My question is if it happens over and over because it is just not a big deal when does it become a big deal.

To be frank, I don't think you understand how it's defined.

Why do you think the prevalence of rape on college campuses is underestimated by college- aged men? 

Really?

If someone grabbed my butt without my permission I would find it "horrendously unacceptable." It's MY body and no one has the right to grab any part of it without my consent. Jail? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the facts and on any prior criminal record. But a conviction? Yes.

Maybe to prove your point, as far as intoxication preventing a person from giving consent, does the gender of the intoxicated person matter?  I presume that a drunk guy could press charges against a woman that had sex with him while he was intoxicated?   What if both are intoxicated?

i think there could be a number of reasons, but i'll offer one. When you ask a man if he would rape someone, i would think that the majority would say of course not. Ask him if he thinks his buddies would rape someone, you would probably get a similar response. So ask him how many rapes occur. Its not him, its not his friends, it must be a few terrible people that he doesn't associate with.

And yes to everyone here who understands rape culture and why it's harmful to both women and men.

See: Stuebenville.

That is an excellent question and something I have always wondered myself.

I am a little leery about the whole intoxication thing myself. 

it was not my intention to say it is ok. i was just trying to pose the question, what is it that makes it a bad thing.  Why is murder bad? well I think that is easier to answer, it ends someones life right. So I just wanted to know why people thought that grabbing a butt is so terrible compared to other sorts of behavior. to the point that it spawned this thread.

I can tell you this, those cases are an absoluote nightmare to investigate (imagine neither party remembers everything from the night) and a nightmare to get a conviction on.  As such, at least in my jurisdiction, many cases never get brought forth due to a lack of evidence.....even if we believe consent was not given.....we just can't connect the dots because the victim/suspect can't and there is not always physical evidence/witnesses. 

The best advice you can give your daughters on this one is don't get so drunk you can't defend yourself. (notice I did NOT say it was their fault) My point is that we all have personal responsibility for our safety.....no point in making yourself less safe by getting blackout drunk.

I'll answer it this way. If a person is incapacitated by alcohol (drugs, etc.), that person is not capable of consenting to sexual contact (your state's statutes may vary). Intoxication of the accused will not excuse sexual assault. That is to say if you decide to have sex with a person who is unable to consent to sexual contact, then you've committed a sexual assault. Even if you're drunk. I'll let the lawyers play their game as that gets defined in a court of law (or a conduct hearing).

I know where this discussion is going to go with the "what if" scenarios, as I've had it a gazillion times. I'll probably not play the "what if" game.

Instead, I'll state that if sexual contact was had in the absence of consent, conduct codes and state laws were likely violated. Which brings us back to the "tree in a forest" discussion. The analogy I offered that you still drove drunk even if you didn't get arrested if you were driving with a BAC of .09 but nobody pulled you over.

Men are victimized by sexual assault. Even by women. The nature of our society discourages male victims from coming forward even more than it discourages female victims from doing so. 

Given the patriarchy that pervades our society, women are still raped at an alarmingly higher rate than are men. Objective stats on the matter are easily found.

 

Thanks for the response.  If you'll indulge me one sort of what if, can both people to a sexual encounter be victims of sexual assault?  It seems, based on what you wrote, they can.  

This is a good point, alluding to some things you said before, I bet you would find a fair level of misunderstanding among my peers as to the point where its not that the woman has to say no, she has to say yes. Consent doesnt not mean not saying no.

And i apologize if i'm getting into the what if game, but lets say sagan grabs girl's butt. she says to him no dont do that, and he lets go and apologizes. is that assault?  am i risking assault every time i go in for a first kiss on a date?!

Totally agree.  That's not going to change for one second that I'm going to teach my daughter exactly what LB wrote.

Exactly.

I plan on teaching my son - when he's older (2 may be a little young) the definitions of rape of consent. It will be awkward and embarrassing and I'm sure he won't want to have that conversation, but we need to teach both sexes - not just women - about consent, intoxication, and rape.

Dude, I have 4 daughters.......I don't give a rats arse what you teach men....have at it, I've got my hands full.

Agree as well.  What are your thoughts on two victims of sexual assault from the same encounter?

In addition to what you've taught your daughters, I've taught mine assertiveness. As in "I said no ... what part of that do you not f***ing understand?!?!"

And to clearly articulate their "no" in arenas that expand beyond sexual encounters. Practice is good. 

Where it gets difficult to understand is if you have a sexual encounter that, if videotaped, might show that the intoxicated person appears to be the aggressor.  I assume, but don't know, that there have been people convicted of rape that either didn't know the other person was intoxicated or when the intoxicated person initiated and controlled the encounter.

A what if, I know.

Your not a girl...  and apparently clueless about the psychology of this.  It's not just a "pinch".  It's the fact that someone feels they have the right to do something to you just because they feel like it, for kicks and fun - and in many cases, you just have to take it.  People get upset/mad just if someone calls them a name (and dwells on it for more than 5 min) - because that shows disrespect.  To what level of disrespect is shown by someone touching you in a manner you basically only let husbands or close friends do?  Even THEN, it's not always cool.

My wife get's occasionally pinched and grabbed in her work.  She does NOT just never think of again after 5 minutes.  She's not asking for the guys hands to be cut off or thrown in jail, but maybe thrown out of the concert/show.

She wears outfits for the atmosphere of the show and to contribute to the entire stage show.  She then does audience participation.  She is there for part of the show and illusion, not to be grabbed by drunk slobs.  You think she just "forgets after 5 minutes" when some guy grabs her butt where NO ONE else (save me) is permitted?  The embarrassment of having that happen in front of 100's/1000's of people?  Would she LIKE to smack the guy?  Sure, but she also has her job/show/venue to consider.  Employees of the casino/show can't strike people.  They have to go through normal security procedure.

And to think, this is a family show that I have taken lots of BTers to.  Just like the podium girls.  It's not just the physical pinch, it's the degrading and belittling and embarrassment that goes with it.  Especially if it's there for the world to see.

In bar?  yeah, smack the guy and move on.  In the public eye?  If your job could be at stake?  You have to smile and take it or go through some long process just because some yahoo thinks he can just grope and grab as he pleases.  It's a lack of respect, and she has to just stand there and be disrespected in front of an audience.

She comes home after a show where this happens is is visibly upset.  It's not something you just brush off in 5 minutes.  Is it the end of the world?  No, but it's not "just a thang".  I have seen it happen and yelled and asked her what I should do next time it happened.  Go over and pop the guy or protect her?  No, the show can't have the HUSBANDS of performs punching people either.  Helpless, unless you get security.

I do have one son...he is 15.....we have had that discussion numerous times.  I don't find it awkward.  I would find him sitting in a prison to be awkward and embarrassing.  I would find him not understanding the elements of rape to be embarrassing, from a father raising a son aspect. I would find him not treating women with respect to be almost unbearable in light of my relationship with my daughters.

Still.....back to the arse grabbing at hand.....sorry.....not a big deal so far....it's up to her to say she was offended.  It's wrong, he's an idiot, but she's driving the bus.