Jim Kelley's (Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN) (Page 11)

Shoulder impingement has led to a visit to the doc today and he gave me a cortisone shot.  Fingers crossed.

MarathonGirl, Keven, I'll offer my thoughts; Jim and others may disagree on some points and I'm happy to discuss....

-Will Iook like a retard if i don't have a tri bike OR aerobars, i have a road bike. 

No/Don't worry about it. You will be giving up 1-2mph. Clip-on aerobars can get you close for ~$100. With clip-ons or a TT (tri) bike, fit is key. It's usually worth the seemingly high price tag to get a professional fit.

-Any recommendations on some wetsuits that don't feel like they are choking you? I kept getting passed last summer by everybody.. as i was one of the only one's without a wetsuit in 65F water. I have one and its real stretchy, doesn't feel too tight, just the neck is so restricting i felt like it was drowning and was freaking out the whole time i tried an open water swim 1 mile and never wore it again. 

Obviously the fit will be quite personal, so a wetsuit that works well for me might choke you. Sometimes you can/should adjust how it's sitting on you to get it off your neck. Also, just in case, it should be a tri-specific wetsuit; you really don't want to swim in a regular one.

- nutrition. for those who have done an ironman any suggestions or tips for nutrition? 
I did 100 mile ride twice. The first one i didn't really each much until several hours in, and then was fading out at 80 miles where i ate a bag of doritos and was ok to the end. I can imagine running a marathon after a 100 ride though, as cycling is pretty exhausting for me. 
On the second 100 miler, I made an effort to really start eating early. Mainly margarita cliff blocks, and when we stop (3x at gas stations) had a few protein bars. ( i think i did 1200 calls total, which is a lot for me as i don't really get hungry until after riding/running/races, then i'm ravenous) about 93 miles in I had this sudden thought "I need to get off my bike right now" 
Told my friend at the moment, " I think i just need a big bag of candy and i'll be ok" 
He made me pull over and eat one of his gels and i ate my last few blocks, before i passed out or wrecked. 
was kinda funny for me because i was totally fine and then SUDDENLY it happened. My friend said thats the wall or something. In running the wall is little different and you don't eat as much. 

I'd be interested to hear what others do who have done an ironman. Because its hard to eat too much while running. I only eat maybe 600 calls max during a marathon.. So i'm just worried about Bonking. 
How do you carry enough food on your bike? Do they have food at aid stations and what is typical?

This is almost as personal as the wetsuit, and you should practice your race nutrition multiple times, especially on your most race specific workouts around 7-3 weeks outs. Don't compare too much to your stand-alone marathon... an IM is much lower intensity, so your body can send more blood to your stomach to digest (and going too hard in an IM -> not being able to process nutrition -> GI issues or running out of fuel is one of the most common causes of underperformance). Also, as you found out on those rides, you need to supplement your stored glycogen to get through an 8-17 hour day. So, start trying to take in 2-300 calories/hr on your long rides and see how it feels. Try a mix of sportsdrink (if you can use what they're serving on course, it will make your life a lot easier), gels/blocks, and if you want some real food (I like Clif Kids z-bars, sometimes something salty like pretzels is nice to break up the sugar taste... you're looking for mostly carbs with some protein and minimal fat and fiber [although a study just showed raisins are as effective as shotblocks at moderate intensity]). It will probably be hard to keep eating during your IM marathon, but it's very important. Most people seem to drop their hourly calories by about 1/3 from bike to run. Lots has been written on this, and I'm sure we'll continue to discuss it over the course of the season. The main thing is to experiment in training. 

Yes they'll have food at aid stations, you can and should find out soon what will be offered where. On training rides, bento boxes are nice and it's amazing how many calories you can fit in jersey pockets.

-The typical Sunday training is a long Ride at an easy pace...if we were to make that in terms of heart rate, what would it be? 

Zone 2/conversational pace is a reasonable suggestion. Early in the season/when you're working on pushing your endurance envelope, it might be zone 1 or move from 1 to 2 over the course of the ride. Once you've established sufficient endurance for the race, you might put some zone 3 or hill climbing into it. Also, learn to listen to your body and err on the side of lower intensity. Gordo Byrn's 4 pillars is my favorite writing on this topic... I recommend reading it over and over until you've fully internalized it.

You can estimate your training zones just based on your age, but at some point it will be worthwhile to test your functional threshold and calculate zones from that. Here's a protocol, and you can then use BT's zones calculator. 

-90% of the workouts during the week have Swim/Bike on the same day...due to time constraints, it is easiest for me to train Swim/Run one after another at the gym (winter weather in Canada is not favourable for outdoor training) and my cycling work would be done at home on the trainer, does this switch have any negative impacts? 

-Lastly, it is also easiest for me to switch Thursday Long Run to a weekend long run and Sunday long ride to Thursday on the trainer, would this cause any issues? (I am assuming that the importance is getting the training in and not so much the day in which we do them but just want to be sure.)

Those two are related, so I'll answer them together. As much as possible, try to separate (in decreasing priority) your most challenging workouts (of which there should only be a few in a week), your same-sport workouts, and your non-swim workouts. So your long run and ride switch is no problem. It's not ideal to do swim and bike or run workouts back to back... you'll lose a little quality in one or both, but it's not a huge deal, and hey, we have lives that tri has to fit into. 

Originally posted by Ted Conroy

Originally posted by momandmd

Originally posted by Birkierunner

Any fun things coming up for the weekend for folks?

I'm planning on a 6 mile run Saturday, followed by a 20+ hour trip to Qatar .

I'm going to be traveling 3 out of 4 weeks next month for work. How do you keep up with your training while on the road?

I do travel a lot and it has a tendency to derail my training, but I'm getting better . Planing is key. I usually try to plan for lighter volume weeks when I'm traveling, especially if it's more than a couple of days, and I'll plan my rest or easy days for when I'm away.  I also scope out the hotels and try to choose ones with good (decent) gyms if I don't think I can get outside (I travel light so especially winter time I usually run in the gym).  I do love to run outside when the weather is decent.  I'm not planning to in Qatar as I'm not sure how socially acceptable running clothes are on women there.  I tend to do either easy runs or interval runs while I'm away- interval training is nice and efficient and works well on a treadmill.  I'll also prioritize strength training since hotels tend to have a decent selection of weights.  Bikes are plus/minus- half the time it's a recumbent bike, which makes me very sad.  I also tend not to rely on hotel pools- inevitably they are about 10 feet long, so you are swimming like a hamster on a wheel, and occupied by herds of small children splashing and jumping on top of you.  I can usually fit in workouts in the morning (less fun when I'm traveling east from Denver), or in the afternoon between meetings and dinner.  In the worst case, I'll do 15 minutes of yoga and core work in the room.  

I got my 6 miles in this morning, but probably won't get anything done until Monday since I get to Doha at 9 pm tomorrow!

Marathongirl- I think there are some places where you can rent wetsuits, so you could try out a few to see which ones work best.  I hate that feeling too- I have a BlueSeventy and it's not too bad.

Your congrats are to him, right? 

Mike already addressed some of this but I'll add a bit.  When it comes to long distance racing you cannot wait until your body tells you that it needs energy before you start giving it energy.  If you wait too long it will be too late.  In an IM you may wait 10 min or so to let your body get used to the transition from the swim to the bike and then start feeding but once you start you need to keep taking in calories on a frequent and regular basis.  Figure out what your stomach can handle as far as calories per hour and divide that up into 10 or 15 minute blocks and be sure to eat in each of those blocks.  For my IM racing I have settled on the following schedule per hour on the bike: 

24 fluid oz of Skratch Lab drink (2.75 scoops of Skratch per bottle)(sip approx. every 10 min)
1 GU (take in at 0:15 of the hour)
Saltstick cap (take in at 0:30 of the hour)
1/4 Powerbar (take in at 0:45 of the hour)
16 oz extra water

I carry all my GUs and Powerbars in my Darkspeed bento box on the top bar.  I don't like the Perfrom energy drink that has been served in most IM races the past few years so I started using Skratch Labs.  Some people will cringe about all the weight I carry but I carry 3 bottles of Skratch for the first half and then stop at special needs and get another 3 bottles that I have put in my special needs bag.  I also have a on XLab Torpedo between the arm bottle that I have water in and which I top off at every aid station.  IM has now switched to Gatorade Endurance so if you prefer that you can live off the course and have fewer bottles on your bike. 

It sounds like you have modified your calorie intake frequency on the bike...you don't want to wait until several hours in to start feeding.  And I would probably lay off the protein bars...you want carbs and not a lot of other stuff that is harder to digest and assimilate.

Wetsuits are a very individual thing and you just have to try a few brands/models on until you find one that fits your body and pocketbook.  Most are going to be fairly snug so you are just going to have to get acclimated to it during training.  We had a clip-on aerobar discussion a few pages back that should give you some good info.

Nice job on the second ride.  Until you get more experience I would keep the pace of your runs off the bike a little easier.  As your race approaches you can work in some faster runs of the bike in your key race prep workouts.  Your rpms on the first half of the bike may have been too low and you may have been mashing a little more than you should (hence the higher HR ?)   Many people prefer to ride at about 90 rpm, although I usually find myself at the 82-84 end of the spectrum. 

Originally posted by momandmd

Originally posted by Ted Conroy

Originally posted by momandmd

Originally posted by Birkierunner

Any fun things coming up for the weekend for folks?

I'm planning on a 6 mile run Saturday, followed by a 20+ hour trip to Qatar .

I'm going to be traveling 3 out of 4 weeks next month for work. How do you keep up with your training while on the road?

I do travel a lot and it has a tendency to derail my training, but I'm getting better . Planing is key. I usually try to plan for lighter volume weeks when I'm traveling, especially if it's more than a couple of days, and I'll plan my rest or easy days for when I'm away.  I also scope out the hotels and try to choose ones with good (decent) gyms if I don't think I can get outside (I travel light so especially winter time I usually run in the gym).  I do love to run outside when the weather is decent.  I'm not planning to in Qatar as I'm not sure how socially acceptable running clothes are on women there.  I tend to do either easy runs or interval runs while I'm away- interval training is nice and efficient and works well on a treadmill.  I'll also prioritize strength training since hotels tend to have a decent selection of weights.  Bikes are plus/minus- half the time it's a recumbent bike, which makes me very sad.  I also tend not to rely on hotel pools- inevitably they are about 10 feet long, so you are swimming like a hamster on a wheel, and occupied by herds of small children splashing and jumping on top of you.  I can usually fit in workouts in the morning (less fun when I'm traveling east from Denver), or in the afternoon between meetings and dinner.  In the worst case, I'll do 15 minutes of yoga and core work in the room.  

I got my 6 miles in this morning, but probably won't get anything done until Monday since I get to Doha at 9 pm tomorrow!

Here's a good article I came across a few years ago with some good tips on training and nutrition while travelling

Nice job Steve!!  Glad the hamstring gave you no issues

So....you are smart to be thinking about all this!! Nutrition can make or break your race.  Now is the time to start trying things out and to use it in your training!!  You must practice this!  

For me, I keep it simple with Infinit Nutrition (custom formula) and Gels.  I learned I don't 1. tolerate solids when racing and 2. want to be bothered with anything. I like to keep it simple.  BUT, plenty of people will have a feast on the bike and that is ok  I keep a coke and payday bar, advil and tums in special needs for an emergency but don't usually stop unless I am dying.  However, special needs is sort of a mini goal for some - it can break up the race and give you something to look forward to!  It really depends on your goals for the race and your comfort level. 

The more time you spend on your bike, the more comfortable you will get with drinking from an aero bottle, taking food in on the bike, etc.  You can get a rear bottle mount for behind the seat to hold 2 bottles and then one on your frame.  You can stop at aid stations or slow down and grab a bottle.  I usually just grab water and squeeze it into the aerobottle. I don't rely on the course at all, except for water and then on the run if I need something extra I have that.  If you rely on the course for your nutrition, be sure you know what they are serving and use that in your training  

There will be porta potties at various locations, yes- usually at the bottle drops.  I have learned to pee myself.  Ewww...I know...but again, depends on your goals for the race  

Cool you are doing Boulder! That will be a beautiful race.  Feel free to "inspire me' with questions...I am not an expert but have done 4 IMs and made all the mistakes  And of course Jim is the bomb dot com so his input is invaluable!  

Not sure what brand of bento box you have but maybe its a little small and you should explore other options? I can fit quite a bit in my Darkspeed bento.  I usually have 6 GUs, a Powerbar and a small sandwich bag with my Saltstick caps in it.  It is a little cramped to begin with but once you start eating stuff the volume decreases.  You can also tape GUs on to your bike's top tube.  If you wear a bike jersey you can put other things in the pockets, including empty GU packs or wrappers once you eat things.  You cannot litter on the course (DQ by rules) but you can throw stuff away at aid stations.  I wouldn't wear a running belt on the bike because you really don't need to be carrying all that much...try to get a good percentage of your calories in liquid form. 

I doubt you will encounter a sharp U turn right after an aid station at any IM brand race.  Be sure to check the athlete's guide (the post it 4-6 weeks prior to race but they still have last year's posted and it likely won't change much except IM has switched back to Gatorade this year) for what they will serve at aid stations.  You can discard empty bottles at the beginning of the aid station...they usually have hockey nets set up so you can practice your bottle throwing goal scoring   Most importantly....SLOW DOWN prior to the aid station.  Its a long day and taking adequate time for aid stations isn't going to affect your race in the big picture and it ensures you get the things you need and its easier to grab bottles.  They rely on volunteers and their ability to properly hand off bottles will vary but most are pretty good at it once they get the hang of it.  There is a progression of what they offer as you go through the aid station.  Last year Boulder offered IRONMAN Perform, Water, Bananas, Bonk Breaker Bars, GU Original Energy Gels, Roctane Ultra Endurance Gels, and GU Chomps every 15 miles on the bike.  Aid stations are very long.  The first few volunteers will usually have water to hand off and the next volunteers will have energy drink, then another set of water volunteers and then another set of energy drink volunteers.  There will be GU and energy gel/bar volunteers mixed in for certain zones.  So, there are multiple chances to get what you need so don't freak out if you miss the first bottle handoff.  Ideally you could grab a GU, slam it down your throat, then grab a water to wash it down.  Again....GO SLOW but keep moving so you don't crash into others.  Do not try to ride without holding on to handlebars!!!   Never assume a rider in front of you is going to do the logical thing and ride straight...people do stupid things in aid stations so constantly be vigilant about who is around you and how fast you and others are going.  If you are totally intimidated then pull off to the side, get out of the way, and simply STOP and get what you need.  Do not skip an aid station.  Most aerobottles that are attached to your bike will have a fill opening where you can put the top of the water bottle into the opening and squeeze water into it to refill it.  The openings have flexible material (and/or mesh spongy thingees) that reduce/prevent splashing of water out of the bottle.  After the aid station there is one last chance to discard any empty bottles you have.

For special needs bags they have a volunteer set up before the bag pickup to check your race bib number and then they will yell down the line what your race number is so other volunteers can grab your bag and get it ready for you.  Since I pick up new energy drink bottles I will actually stop.  To me its worth it because I get the energy drink I prefer...although with the switch to Gatorad I may change that strategy.  If you put things in your bag that you HAVE to have then stop and get them...its too tricky to try to grab the bag while riding, then get what you need, then discard the bag before the aid station has ended.  Stopping for a minute is not going to affect your time much in the big picture and it will ensure a successful race if you get what you need. 

If you want to carry several bottles then you will need either an extra aero bottle between your aerobars and/or bottles mounted behind your seat.  I have both.  I use my XLab Torpedo between my aerobars for water.  I love it.  Its easy to refill, it is securely mounted, I can mount my bike computer on it so I can easily read my power reading without moving my head, the straw is very well placed and it tucks down under a clip when not in use to its not in your face at all.   I like between the arm aerobottles because its constantly there in front of you and reminds you to DRINK...its amazing how easy it is to get caught up in pedaling and you forget to drink.  I have my Garmin 910 set up to beep every 10 minutes to remind me to drink.  I explained topping off water bottles above.  The key is to go slow enough to be able to grab the bottle from the volunteer, then quickly put the top of the bottle into the aerobar opening and squeeze as quickly and as hard as you can.  It may take a couple squeezes to get the bottle contents into your aerobottle.  If this intimidates you then simply practice it in the weeks before the race.

I mix my energy bottles the night before and put them in the 'frige so that they are cold when I drop them off at the bike special needs dropoff on race morning.  I'm not out there long enough for them to get super hot.  If this is a concern for you, you might try freezing them the night before and if its a while before you get them during the race they won't be as warm.   All aid stations have a few port pottys available.   I pee on the bike myself.  During IM WI in 2006 it was so cold and rainy that I actually looked forward to peeing on myself so that my legs got some temporary warmth

You don't sound like a retard.  The only stupid questions are the ones that don't get asked.

Cortisone shot in the shoulder didn't work its magic over the weekend.  Doc has scheduled an MRI for Wednesday to see what's going on.  I ain't got time for this!  Vent over.

As you become fitter your HR will be lower for maximal efforts versus when you are less fit.  When you are fit you don't have to work as hard for a given effort.  So, don't view it as a bad thing that your HR is lower...and 170 isn't exactly "low"