Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open (Page 11)

Hey Dorm,

Regarding the bold comment - yes and no.  I would not tell someone that just got off the couch who couldn't walk around the block without a rest that they should hop on the bike and do some over/under intervals or VO2 MAX intervals 'cause, well, I wouldn't want to be responsible for their death.  I probably should have clarified that you do indeed need a bit of a base before you start doing really intense intervals.  You can however, even with ZERO base, add some intensity in the form of bike fartleks.  Just like on a run, you look ahead, maybe there's a fire hydrant a couple hundred yards down the road.  You pick up your pace until you get to the hydrant, etc.

It doesn't take a LOT of base before you are ready for structured intervals.  For that person I referred to above, the one that is just coming off of the couch, maybe 4-6 weeks of easy Z1-2 type riding.  Then they can safely introduce some structured intervals.  Once someone is doing structured intervals, they can also begin to increase their tempo once or twice a week on their longer steady state rides by riding in their Z3 sweet-spot.

By the way, what is MP?  I am not familiar with that term.

Hey Janet,

Yes, doing the STP test is an important first step.  Training at the proper speed targets the improvements you need as a triathlete.  Yeah, you could get in the water and just blast through intervals as hard as you can go, but that won't server you well on race day.  If you have any questions about calculating STP once you have done the test let me know and we will go through it.

When you get some video, you can either put it up on YouTube or let me know and I will send you a link so you can upload it to me.

Scott, I agree that it takes time to build a base ... I think years.  While I'm not the fittest or fastest cyclist, I can easily get back to 35-50 mile local rides as soon as the weather warms, which translates into having a good base.  That stated, I worked in some interval, hi-intensity drills this week, one with alternating 1 minute intervals at 100% and 65% max power (MP) for 15 minutes.  I don't know if any in the group here mountain bike, but that is great interval training for me with short hills and the short energy bursts needed to climb these.  One hour of riding on single track mountain bike trails gets me some good interval work.

I must say the toughest part with training this week, was the saddle ... it just takes 5-7 hours of saddle time to toughen up the 'spot'. 

I had a swim coach session wherein she had me work on better shoulder rotation (I was somewhat flat)  and a hi-elbow (arms swung wide) just prior to the hand entry on recovery.  My shoulders with rotation were about at the 2:00 and 8:00 positions instead of 12:00 and 6:00.  Scott, your drill to make the fingertips just touch or sweep the water at re-entry worked nicely too.

Hi Mike!

Welcome to the group.

"No surprises on race day" is a great mantra to have.  ESPECIALLY when you are going long.

Two quick questions -

a) What kind of time do you have available to train, or more specifically, is there a reason you are squeezing your IM training in to 90-days?

b) You say you have essentially ignored HR zone training.  You also mention your HR gets up over 170 on some of those late afternoon hot runs.  So you have used a HR monitor but just not utilized zones?  Maybe you can fill in just a little bit on your HR monitor experience.

Again, welcome to the group.  We have a good bunch of people here and welcome any questions you may have.

Hey Dan!

Welcome back.  I thought you were overseas!

A lot of the same faces are here and we have a couple new faces.

Glad to have you in the group for another season.

Hey Dorm,

The Maffetone Method is about determining your maximum aerobic function (MAF) heart rate and then very strictly keeping your HR below that number when you workout.  At first that generally results in very slow running.  Over time, your pace at your MAF HR will begin to get faster.  As Deb mentioned, in the last 5-weeks she has experienced ~ 1:00 per mile improvement in her pace at the same HR, meaning at the same effort.

Here is a link to Dr. Maffetone's webpage that talks about how to determine your Maximum Aerobic Function Heart Rate - http://philmaffetone.com/180-formula/

And here is a link to the "Introduction to Maffetone" page that will better explain what the Maffetone Method actually is.  I should tell you, the Maffetone Method is extremely controversial although there is a growing number of athletes that have become believers in the method (myself included).

http://philmaffetone.com/what-is-the-maffetone-method/

From either one of those pages you can get to dozens of other pages on various aspects of the Maffetone Method.

Scott, while my results right now are very preliminary, I'm intrigued enough to pursue this method for a while.  The main reason right now is simply my reduction of joint pain/stiffness.  Given the formula, my slower run this week exceeded the Maffe MHR by about 10bpm.  But, I'm willing to experiment and slow the pace maybe another 15 seconds and see how this works throughout the week.

I gather from this, eventually one will see a drop in HR with a given pace.  Would this be the point where the athlete could increase speed and effectively increase both speed and HR - but not exceed the Maffe MRH?

Do you use this or what method do you use with your cycling?  My method with cycling is based off max power (MP) and equivalent HR at MP.  These are determined via an all out, ride to you puke, effort over a 20min TT.  Given the MP and HR levels, I like to ride wherein my HR seldom exceeds 80% of max.  This seems the 'sweet spot' for me - where I feel I ride at optimal speed and longer distance.

What are the group's thoughts on this process for cycling?

Hey Tony,

The Maffetone method is NOT about pace.  The Maffetone method advocates determining your Maximum Aerobic Function Heart Rate.  Then STRICTLY keeping your HR below that number during your runs.  I don't know what you calculated your MAF HR at, but say for the sake of discussion that your MAF HR is 116 beats per minute.  You would keep your HR at or below 116 BPM during your runs.  Initially, that may mean you have to occasionally walk to keep your HR that low, especially if your route has hills.  Over time, your pace at the same MAF HR will begin to become faster.  Maffetone suggests you do a test every 4-weeks or so to determine your average pace at your MAF HR.  When you see that pace plateau, meaning no improvement over a couple of tests, then you add speed work.

The important thing with Maffetone is that when you train, you are targeting your MAF HR, not a pace.  Your HR is what dictates your pace.

Using Maffetone for cycling becomes even more controversial than using Maffetone for running.  Dr. Maffetone does not explicitly define the Maffetone Maximum Aerobic Function Heart Rate for cycling.  Typically for most people, their cycling Lactate Threshold is 10-20 beats per minute lower than for running.  So how does that translate to aerobic threshold?  The answer to that is unclear.  For that reason, and because intensity on the bike is far less harmful than intensity during a run can be, I don't follow the Maffetone Method on the bike.

I am not familiar with 'Maximum Power' (MP).  I would love to hear what that is and how you determine what your Maximum Power is.  More specifically, how are you measuring Max Power?  I am familiar with the terms 'Functional Threshold Power' and 'Critical Power.'

With that in mind, because I use power I follow the Hunter-Coggan Cycling zones.  Others follow the Friel HR based zones.  I typically have one long zone 2 endurance ride each week (ex. - 210' @  60-70% FTP) which I generally get to do outdoors because I am in sunny Southern California.  Then I do three rides per week on my trainer, typically one of those rides is an over-under interval ride (ex. - 5 x 9' intervals (3 x (1' @ 95% FTP, 2' @ 105% FTP)) w/6' recovery @ 55% FTP between interval sets); the remaining two rides I alternate between the following types of workout:

• VO2 MAX intervals - (ex. - 6 x 3' @ 120% FTP w/3' recovery @ 50% FTP)
• Sweet spot intervals - (ex. - 4 x 12' @ 85-90% FTP w/9' recovery at 50% FTP)
• Tempo ride - (ex. - 90' @ 75-80% FTP)
• Threshold intervals - (4 x 15' @ 95-99% FTP w/3' recovery at 60% FTP)

I alternate VO2 MAX/Threshold interval workouts with tempo/sweet spot workouts based on what the rest of my training week looks like - VO2 MAX and Threshold intervals can create a great deal of residual fatigue so I take care not to impact other key workouts that week.  Recovery weeks I do all four rides as Z1-2 recovery/endurance rides.

Hope that helps.

Hey Dave,

First, to your Trainer Road question.  I don't think I would be looking at the build plans at this point.  The build plans actually drop volume and keep intensity about the same as some of the base plans meaning the build plans have a bit less training load.  While it may seem the build plans are a bit more targeted, you can achieve better results I think with a combination of base plans.

Talking about the base plans - Traditional Base plan is just that, a traditional approach to building base.  Long slow endurance rides.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with building an aerobic base this way.  However, you can get a bigger bang for your buck (buck = available training time) by raising the intensity a little bit, which is what the Sweet Spot Base plan does.  My personal opinion is that the specific race base plans (Sprint Base, Olympic Base, etc.) are a little bit lacking in total training load so I am not particularly a fan of those targeted plans.

If it were me and I was going to continue riding three times a week, I would start with the Sweet Spot Base Low Volume I plan.  Obviously you would be replacing your current home trainer ride with a TR ride.  Then you would need to make a decision - keep the other two rides as is, or replace one or both of them with a TR ride.  I would want at least two TR rides each week.  The group LBS ride probably has a fair amount of intensity so I would probably keep that one - although be aware that too much intensity can be problematic if residual fatigue negatively impacts future workouts.  Assuming you're doing two TR rides, I would absolutely start with the 8-Minute test as that will determine your FTP and your future training levels.  Follow the test with the Saturday ride (not necessarily on Saturday, whatever day would be convenient), then in future weeks, do the Thursday and Saturday rides in order.  If you choose to do three TR rides per week just follow the SS Base Low Volume I plan as written.  That would get you 6-weeks down the road.  At the end of that I would move on to the Sweet Spot Base Low Volume II plan.  That plan adds an additional ride each week in the form of a recovery ride.  Again start with the 8-minute test and then, if you choose to continue with two rides, do the Tuesday and Saturday rides.  If you decide to do three rides, eliminate the 30-minute recovery ride.  As you approach the end of that second 6-week block it would be wise to re-evaluate where you are at and plan future training based on that.  Through all of this, when the weather improves so you can ride outdoors, I would be doing a long endurance ride outdoors once a week.  Something along the lines of 90-120 minutes minimum riding Z2-Low Z3.

Next, thinking about preparing for an Olympic and a 70.3.  The first question is which one of those races is your 'A' race?  The next thing that comes to mind is regardless of which is your 'A' race, you have ~ 24-weeks to prepare for a 70.3 coming off of reduced run volume due to the calf injury.  That will have to be taken into account as it won't do any good to re-injure the calf as you prepare for the half.

At this point I would be leaning towards preparing for the 70.3 and the Olympic fall in where it does and you train through it but we can talk about that once you mention which is your 'A' race.

Just my humble two cents.

Hey Dave,

I re-read this this morning and realized it could be interpreted differently than how I meant it.

I did not mean to immediately follow the test with the Saturday ride, rather, your next scheduled bike workout day, do the Saturday workout.  If you immediately followed the FTP test with the Saturday workout, you might need someone to help you off of the bike and you likely wouldn't ride, run, or maybe even walk again for a couple days so don't do that!

Sorry if I created any confusion.

Dave,

OK, that makes sense.  I suggest the focus and goal for the Olympic be to master bike pacing in the hills because you will have more of them in the Half-Iron.  Also it would be a good time to begin testing your nutrition plan for the 70.3.  Don't know if you have seen the elevation profile for the 70.3 bike course but I looked it up and found it, at least it appears to be the same course - http://www.mapmyride.com/us/gilford-nh/timberman-70-3-bike-route-2358617.  As you can see, there are several significant climbs and while none of them would be rated climbs by true cycling standards, they are going to be a challenge nonetheless (MapMyRide shows them as rated climbs but MMR has their own climb classification system that doesn't match up to true cycling climbs very well).  Especially the 4.67 mile climb that ends 10-miles from T2 (this climb is close to being a true category 4 climb).  Pacing on the bike is going to be key so you have the legs to run 13.1 miles.

A strong bike focus now, leading into the race plan you begin in April will help a lot.  Once you start your plan, you might actually consider supplanting the plan bike workouts with Trainer Road workouts.  I strongly believe you will get more bang for your buck out of Trainer Road - however, that said, it will be important once you can get outside that you ride your long ride outdoors to sharpen your bike handling skills.  You are going to have a couple of good downhills you will need to contend with and bike handling skill will be critical to safely taking advantage of the free speed.

This is going to be a fun, challenging season.  Happy training and racing!  And if you have questions along the way, don't hesitate to ask.

Hi Mike,

I absolutely respect the desire to avoid the toll on your family as you train.  More triathletes probably should do likewise and reduce the stress their training creates.

To start with, I highlighted above in your original post (actually put in bold) a couple things I am going to comment on.

When you talk about bricks by saying for example 50/12 brick, are you referring to 50 minutes bike followed by 12 minutes running?  How are you defining your bricks?

Going three weeks on followed by one week "off" is essentially following a 4-week periodization schedule.  That is a fairly common training method that involves gradually building over three weeks, then dropping volume 40-65% during a recovery week.  During that recovery week is when you body is actually making the adaptations to the increased training stress so in some ways, that recovery week is at least as important, if not more important, than the build weeks.  

Let's take a couple minutes to talk about the swim.  You are right, being winded is likely a good indication that you have some technique flaws.  More importantly than that however, being severely winded is a good indication that you are anaerobic during your swim.  That's a problem.  As you probably already know, triathlon is an aerobic event.  Even at the Sprint distance, athletes are primarily relying on their aerobic energy pathways to utilize fat for energy.  If you are anaerobic, you are relying on anaerobic energy pathways that utilize carbohydrate (glycogen) for energy.  You only have a limited supply of glycogen available (~90-120 minutes worth) while you have a virtually unlimited supply of fat.  In addition to the quantity of fuel available, when you are burning carbohydrate you are creating metabolic by-products in the form of lactate and +H ions.  In the blood, those +H ions become lactic acid - creating that burning feeling in  your muscles when your exercise intensity is high.  Finally, when you are anaerobic, your heart rate goes very high as the body attempts to provide the nutrients your working muscles need and clear the lactate and +H ions.  The kicker is that your heart rate will not fully recover, even when you "rest" in T1.  That means you go out of T1 on your bike with an elevated HR that will likely stay high for the remainder of the race.  To avoid all of those not so good things, I would strongly encourage you to focus on swimming in the coming weeks.  First, if there is someone on your Master's team that might be available to work with you one-on-one to improve your stroke.  Then I would up my swimming to a minimum of three times a week.  I know, you want to avoid impacting your family life.  It would be worthwhile to find a way to get in the pool for an hour, three times a week.  It is true you can't "win" a triathlon during the swim, but you can certainly sabotage an entire race day in the water by becoming anaerobic.  The additional time in the water will improve your technique and raise your swim threshold pace (the pace at your swim lactate threshold) and allow you to swim aerobically.  I will be happy to go into more detail on swim threshold pace (STP) and it's importance if you are interested.

I have no idea why anyone would recommend multiple strokes per breath at this point.  Yes, I absolutely recommend you learn to breathe bi-laterally - breathe to both sides.  However, at this point, you are already anaerobic, the last thing you want to do is further reduce the available oxygen.  Once you are able to swim a lap without feeling like your lungs are going to explode, then we can talk about bi-lateral breathing and going multiple strokes per breath.

How have  you determined your HR training zones?  Or have  you?  Let me know how you determined your zones and we can have a discussion about HR zone training.

Finally, beating your 13:32 PR is not entirely un-reasonable - it's four years later, but from the sounds of it there is some low hanging fruit (swim technique for example) that will pay large time dividends.  To get there is going to require a good race plan that is exquisitely executed, a solid nutrition plan, and focused training over the coming weeks/months.  Concentrating on your limiters now (such as swimming) will go a long way towards helping you achieve the sub 13:32 goal.

Hope all of that helps just a little bit.

As always, just my humble two cents.

Now that sounds like a plan - having the couch where it will catch you if you fall!  You know, if you had your remote tied to the couch - kind of like a surfboard leash for the remote - you'd never have to worry about not being able to reach the remote.  The perfect man-cave accessory!