RE-OPENED Birkierunner's 2013 mentor group - RE-OPENED!!! (Page 12)

Training got off to a rough start this week after I got a bout of stomach flu sunday night.  Got down to race weight 4 months early haha.

I am doing bike testing this week (5MP & 20MP) probably on Saturday..which is always fun...er painful I mean.

Looking to find a 5K or 10K race in the next couple weeks as well to see where my run fitness is at but having some trouble with timing and proximity to home.

Hmmm...you're talking to a guy that did a 50 mile ultra 6 weeks after an Ironman.  I did the ultra so that I could qualify for the lottery for the Western States 100 the following year.   Personally, I wouldn't recommend it if you are trying to actually "race" the marathon...especially if this is your first Ironman.  People think it's easy to maintain the peak fitness you attain for your Ironman race and then go on to do other races at the same peak condition.  Maybe if you're extremely experienced or a pro, but its tough for the average person.  I think that's why a lot of people sign up for a fall marathon because they think they'll be in great shape from a summer of Ironman training.  After an Ironman you will feel a little sore the first few days afterwards but it wouldn't be too difficult to start up slowly again after a few more days.  BUT....(and this is an individual thing)...that second week after an IM is when the fatigue will catch up to you and that's where you need to be careful.   Can it be done?  Absolutely.  But, the marathon will always be there another year.  I vote for 2014...if I was doing Chicago for the first time I would want it to be a positive experience...not a death march.

Oh, and no royalties from my cameo in The Distance....I can't speak for Davey

I saw Jim's response, but thought I'd add my own view.  I've done 3 HIM's to date, and after each one I was completely trashed - heck, even after an HM I've had to take quite a bit of recovery time.  I think the reason is twofold, 1)  I'm not holding anything back during race day, 2)  I don't seem to recover very well from all out efforts.  I can get away with it at shorter distances, even an Olympic, but I think it's the longer period of running that really does me in.  Everyone is individual, and rebounds differently, but if you were really planning to race the marathon - I'd pick a different one.

Nice to see you in the grroup Ryan.

I like to follow you around Neil .

Cold morning in MI.  5F wind chill this morning with sideways snow coming off Lake Michigan but got a decent run in.  Considering another shorty at lunch.

Jim:  How long have you been with E3 as a coach?  If I was going to get a coach they would be at the top of my list to consider.

I joined them in 2012.  I had informally coached some folks in the past but when I got my Level 1 certification I approached Jorge about joining his team.  I really like our evidence-based approach to coaching.  High temp here today is supposed to be 3 degrees...x-c ski this afternoon.

I think you could probably do it for fun, but I think you may be disappointed with your results if you tried to "race" it.  

I started Marathon training exactly 1 week after my IM.  After six days of doing nothing, I was going stir crazy.  I was fortunate to have 4 months between the two events.  It gave me enough time to treat the first two months as just base building/active recovery before working up to longer distance running.  Overall, my fitness as of today is far beyond where I usually sit going into February.  

Good swim on lunch.  Not sure if I mentioned it here before, but I stumbled across a coached swim session for a local Tri group at my gym pool when I wlked onto the deck for my lunch swim.  They said I could swim with them for free as long as I was a member at the gym - but I had just cancelled my membership.  As fate would have it, my new gym has delayed opening so I extended my current membership and have swam with this group 3 or 4 times now.

Coach gives a lot of stroke feedback which is what I need.  Anyway, I have lots of work to do on my catch, but I'm seeing some positives already with my 100's dipping in the high 1:2x's, and managed a 2:58 for a hard 200 today.  Hoping that I can find a few extra seconds over the next few weeks, which would be awesome since I've been stuck in a rut swimming mid 1:3x's for a long time now.

When I started tris in 2005 I literally had no idea what the catch and pull were.  None.  Nada.  I didn't seek help for about a year and then took a private lesson from a coach.  As an aside, this guy was on the Canadian National Team at one time and had a 48 minute swim split at IM WI the year he qualified for Kona.  He literally had to teach himself how to run because he spent his whole life in the pool.  Anyway, before my lesson he timed me in a 50m and then a week after the lesson he timed me again.  I think I chopped off 6-7 seconds just from being aware what a pull was and trying to do it...although still not all that well at the time.  Still have a long way to go to get my IM swim to where it needs to be. 

Zero degrees here today but warming up this weekend to the mid teens.  Running and skiing are on the schedule.  I also brought down the Kurt Kinetic Road Machine I bought on Craigslist to my girlfriend's house where I'll use it on weekends.  I have a near 30 year old KHS steel framed 7-speed still in great condition that I'm going to use as a dedicated trainer bike on it.  The computrainer stays at my house with my Trek road bike and Felt DA.   What's on tap for everyone's weekend??

Great work in the pool Neil.

Jim - you will like the KK trainer.  I upgraded from a Fluid2 and will never look back.

I am planning on bike testing tomorrow and probably a longer run on Sunday w/ a hockey game as well that night.

Will be transitioning into a bike focus for 6 weeks or so before I start looking ahead to actual race preparation.

Do you have the standard flywheel or the larger Pro?  The one I bought has the smaller standard one so I hope its not a huge difference...don't really want to pour any more money into a spare trainer.   I love my computrainer but it will be nice to have the spare trainer available at the other house rather than lugging the CT and bike back and forth.

Have the standard...never had an issue.  You should be fine.

I am finally back home!  My apologies to anyone that has asked me a direct question about swimming.  It wasn't that I was ignoring the forum, just that I was driving...and driving...and driving.

I will be taking the next few hours and catching up on forum posts.  But first, I am going out for a quick run, just because I can!

Had my first lesson today at my pool.  I don't know how experienced the coach was but she did point out a couple of things that I can work on.  She also showed me a couple of different drills to work on my kicking.  I am a bit concerned as I have been trying to adopt some of the Total Immersion swimming techniques which does not have a huge kick component.  My coach did not know what i was talking about.  In any event, I think that the session was worthwhile and I feel better now that a coach looked at my stroke and did not have many issues with it.  It is now all about endurance and being able to stay in the water and consistently swim longer that 50 yards at a clip.  Hopefully, it won't take long to see some improvement.  

On a another note, I will be upgrading my BT membership and start a training plan.  Tomorrow, I will pick an A race and develop a plan.  All for now, enjoy the Superbowl and hopefully the 49ers will beat the Ravens as they took out my Patriots.

Hey Gary, sorry I didn't respond sooner.  I have been traveling.

You mentioned, "the leg drop happens when I stop kicking and try using the pull buoys."  In all likelihood, in a triathlon you are only going to have a 2-beat kick - the functional equivalent of no kick at all.  That is why it is so important to develop good stroke technique.  Three cheers for recognizing you should get with a coach now BEFORE you learn a whole bunch of bad habits that you would have to break.

Hey Gary,

I have been traveling so sorry I didn't respond sooner.

There are two main things that are different in open water vs. in a pool.  First, you won't be able to see the bottom, certainly there won't be lane lines to keep you pointed in the right direction.  Second, in the ocean you are going to have to deal with rough water, swells, etc.

Learning how to sight and navigate to where you want to go is critical.  I have seen people add literally thousands of yards to an open water swim because they "got lost."  There is no easy answer to this.  I use a heads up freestyle stroke for three or four strokes to look ahead.  Another option is to use breast stroke for a couple strokes.  You can use bilateral breathing if you can sight on the shore to the side, although that may or may not be an option if you are a considerable distance off-shore.  On top of the inherent difficulty to sighting in open water, you may also have large swells to deal with which will make sighting all the more difficult.  I was in a three mile OW race once where we went from the shore, out a mile and a half around an oil drilling platform, and then back to shore.  The problem was there was an 8-foot swell.  Even the lifeguards on the paddle-boards could not tell where we were at in relation to the course.  I just used my heads up freestyle until the swell took me high enough to see the top of the oil platform.  There were more than a couple participants that had to be told by a helicopter that they were WAY off course.  Of course, that is the horror story, most open water events are not going to be that difficult.  Suffice to say, you need to figure out a way to sight your objective that works for you.

The next thing that you will have to deal with is the rough water.  In the ocean, even on a 'smooth' day, you are going to have swells to deal with.  If it is not a smooth day, the swells can be considerable.  Through in some wind and it can get pretty rough, really fast.  Being able to breath on both sides is the best way to combat the rough water issue.  You can breath to the side that that you can actually breath!

A couple of other quick observations on swimming in the ocean.  It came as a rather disagreeable surprise to me the first time I was in relatively clear ocean water that there are 'critters' sharing the water with you.  Intellectually I knew there was aquatic life down there, but seeing a shark in the water with me was a surprise the first time I saw it.  Now, having seen them a few times, it is not the shock it once was.  Another disagreeable surprise was jellyfish.  On one of the races I did in Seal Beach I was stung, quite literally over my entire body.  I learned from that experience that a wetsuit is indispensable.  One final observation, your body is going to be much more buoyant in the ocean because of the salt water.  Add a wetsuit and your body will be considerably higher in the water.  That will translate into much faster swim times.  For me, I average 10-15 seconds/100 faster in the ocean over in a pool.

Not sure if that was what you are looking for, just my general observations after several three-mile open water races.

It is amazing what a simple change can do for stroke technique and times.  Now if I can just find a similar 'magic bullet' for my run, I can make those reservations for Kona!

Just a quick thought.  In a longer triathlon (OLY, HIM, IM), you will likely be using a 2-beat kick.  Maybe a 4-beat if you are REALLY ambitious and don't have designs on doing well on the bike.  For me, my kick is really nothing more than maintaining balance in the water.  I certainly am not deriving any real propulsion from my kick efforts.  My point is, I would not be overly concerned about, "not having a huge kick component."

Suggestion - find out how experienced she actually is, what certification she has, etc.  Calling yourself a coach, and actually having the ability to help people are not one in the same.  I took some semi-private lessons a couple of winters ago, and he had me working on my kick for weeks, and said my stroke looked pretty good.  I got nowhere fast. 

It may cost you more to use someone good - but it's a worthwhile investment.

Note.  I know nothing about the coach, or how good they are, and am not saying you need to change them.  You just need to be educated about who you are employing to help you.

I will second what Neil said with a "qualifier."  I think the experience your coach has is extremely important.  I am not so sure I fully agree with the certifications part.  I will use myself as an example.  I swam competitively for 15+ years.  I competed in multiple U.S. National Championships.  I held a world record for a brief period of time - BUT - I hold no 'official' certifications; unless my CPR and EMT certs count, and I don't think that is what certification in this context refers to.  Does that immediately disqualify me as a coach?  (I hope not seeing as how I have coached on and off for the past 30 years).

I would say, find out how much experience your coach has.  What do they 'bring to the table?'  Almost as important, can they convey that experience into instruction that you can understand?  If they have certifications, so much the better.