Gray Guys/Girls Masters Focus Triathlete Forum--OPEN! (Page 12)

Karl,

Having the ability to breathe bi-laterally is a very important skill to have and is a technique I always encourage triathletes to learn.  However, if it is holding you back or creating a problem, I would suggest you don't worry about it right now.  There is plenty of time to learn bi-lateral breathing down the road after your swim becomes stronger.

My experience is that when someone struggles with bi-lateral breathing it is because a) they have insufficient body roll, and/or b) their swim fitness is not as good as it could be.  Please don't take that second part the wrong way.  I have worked with individuals that could run a sub 3-hour marathon that couldn't swim 100 yards.  Not because they were not fit, but because they had not developed swim fitness.  There is a difference.

I say stop beating yourself up over the swim.  Get in the pool and have some fun.  Don't worry about bi-lateral breathing and just swim a few laps.  Then a couple days later, do it again but maybe add a few more laps.  After a couple weeks of gradually adding a few laps, then we can talk about actual structured workouts that focus on technique and begin to build swim fitness.  If you are trying to "beat the water into submission" (a common problem of new or developing swimmers) then you are going to fatigue rapidly.  Once you are tired (or maybe thrashed would be a better word) there really is little sense in continuing as you have not yet committed proper stroke to muscle memory.  Your stroke breaks down when you are tired!  Have some fun, after a few laps as you tire, get out of the water and come back in a couple days.

If you are interested, send me a private message and we can work on developing your swim privately.

Thanks Dave, but all I did was give you a couple pointers and helped with a workout structure.  You are the one who actually did the work and put the time in doing laps in the pool.  You are only just beginning to tap in to your swim leg potential and I will be happy to talk about what is next to take your swimming to the next level.  This is where you take a couple minutes, reward yourself for a job well done . . . and then get back to it!  The other guys your racing against are still doing laps and they are still getting faster!

Hey Karl,

I am not "picking" on you!  I just saw something that is worthy of comment.  The comments I am about to make are not directed at you specifically, rather they are directed at ALL of us that call ourselves 'athletes.'

You mention "THEY" by which I assume you mean a coach or an instructor.  This is an area that many athletes struggle with.  Our coach or instructor says something so we just do it.  The coach is supposed to know what he/she is talking about, so we just blindly do what they say.

I have the opinion that, at the end of the day, we are each individually responsible for our own workouts.  More importantly we are responsible for knowing what we are doing and WHY we are doing it.  A coach on the other hand, has the responsibility to know and understand what they are asking you to do.  They should have the ability to explain what they want you to do and why they want you to do it in a clear and concise manner.  Most importantly, a coach should have mastered the ability to listening to his/her athletes.

I submit that if your coach(es) tell(s) you something you don't understand, or instructs you to do something that doesn't make sense or has you doing something new that is creating a problem, then it is incumbent upon you to talk to your coach.  I am not for a moment advocating arguing with your coach.  I suggest you should talk to them.  If you communicate via email or telephone with your coach, then you have a captive audience.  If you are in the pool, it can wait until the end of the workout, if you are at the track, it can wait until the workout is over.  There will be a time that you can privately talk to the coach and ask your questions or state your concerns.  If you coach is unwilling to talk to you, then perhaps it is time to find a different coach.

I am a big believer in having a coach if you truly want to get to the pinnacle of any sport.  My coaches understand that they work for me, not the other way around.  I value my coaches knowledge, experience and suggestions more than I am able to say.  However, when I have a question or I don't understand something, I EXPECT them to make it clear and offer a better explanation.

My hope is that you will never blindly do something a coach tells you to do and have a negative outcome.  Understanding what you are doing and knowing why you are doing it goes a long way towards avoiding the negative outcome.

Karl: good to see you jumping back in.  Take it slow and be patient.  Set yourself a longer term goal, i.e., maybe sometime next year for a shorter distance triathlon.   The other thing you should try if you haven't is to swim with a wetsuit.  

Running in the rain:  the key for me is to put on my rain gear even when it is really warm out.  I have a jacket and pants from North Face that I bought like 20-25 years ago.   They still work great.   I know my feet will get wet, but not starting out a run soaking wet goes a long way.   Getting caught in the rain is another story - that is almost always a pleasant experience because I'm usually overheated.

Hi Deb,

You mentioned a number of different things - kicking, Total Immersion, using fins, BT plans, drills, and then you posed a specific question.  I apologize in advance as I want to comment on each of those items so this post is likely  going to get a bit long.

First, let's talk about kicking.  Back in the day, at the height of my competitive swimming career, I was putting in 12-15,000 meters per day, seven days a week, +/- 330 days a year.  That works out to more than 360,000 meters per month.  Across nearly 10-years of that kind of volume, my recollection is that we did not do 500 meters per month on a kick board - EVER!  That was for a swimmer training for swim meets where the only consideration was to go as fast as possible.  How much less important is the kick for a triathlete who's only concern during the swim should be conservation of energy?

Next, it is very important to understand that you are going to get very little, IF ANY, propulsion from your kick efforts.  When I was swimming, I was fortunate enough to be a member of a world record setting 4 x 200 meter freestyle relay.  I used a 2-beat kick - that is essentially the same as NO kick!

The sole purpose of the kick for a triathlete is balance and to drive body rotation.  You can't work on that skill on a kick board.

Carl, you mentioned that you were EXHAUSTED after very little kicking.  That is a common problem among newer swimmers, ESPECIALLY among triathletes whose first language was running or cycling.  Runners and cyclists develop power by bending their knees.  They naturally try to transfer that technique into the pool while they kick.  To compound the problem, most runners and cyclists do not have very much flexibility in their ankles.  When they kick from the knee with limited ankle flexibility, they can actually generate "negative" propulsion.  I have actually seen people kick and move backwards.

What swimmers in general, and triathletes specifically need to focus on is a proper kick.  One that is streamlined, and one that expends as little energy as possible.  To accomplish that, I recommend a simple drill that is guaranteed to make you feel foolish but which will develop a proper kick in only a few minutes.  For the record, this is one of only a couple drills anyone will ever hear me recommend (Opps!  I think I just foreshadowed my feelings about drills.)

Kicking Drill -

1. Sit on the first step in the pool and stretch your legs out straight in front of you (if no steps sit on deck).
2. Lean back as far as possible, preferably to where your body is straight.
3. POINT YOUR TOES towards the opposite side of the pool.
4. Begin to kick, keeping your feet "in contact" with each other - meaning the heel of one foot never goes above the top of the other foot.
5. DON'T bend your knees.  You can see this!  DON'T bend your knees.
6. The best way to describe this is you are "kicking" from your hip.
7. The only flex, anywhere on your leg, should be at your ankles.
8. To visualize this, hold your arms straight out in front of you, now "kick" with your arms, keep the elbows straight and allow the wrists to naturally flex as your arms move up and down.  You want the same motion in your legs.
9. Strive for no splash and any bubbles to be pushing away from you.
10. Do the drill for +/- 5 minutes, repeat 2-3 times per week for a couple weeks.

If anyone has any question about thi drill, please ask.

Let's move on to Total Immersion.

Simply stated, I am not a fan of Total Immersion (TI), however, there are some useful aspects within Total Immersion for newer or 'challenged' swimmers.  Let me try and explain that seeming contradiction.  First, in my opinion, Total Immersion over emphasizes front quadrant swimming.  Paraphrased, front quadrant swimming is where one arm is ALWAYS in front of you.  To achieve that, you have to have a significant amount of glide in your stroke.  Taking it to the level that TI advocates will result in a VERY low stroke count (number of strokes per lap).  While it may, at first glance, appear that efficiency of the stroke is increased, the reality is that you cross a point where low stroke count negates any gains by the increase in efficiency.  I would be nice if I only had to take one stroke per 25 yard length of the pool.  Unfortunately, that simply is not realistic  In the same way, TI's low stroke count, or turnover rate, is not realistic, especially for open water swim events.  The other BIG problem I have with TI is that it is slow.  TI advocates will argue that point all day long.  I counter with, "Can you name ONE active swimmer using TI methods that is competing at the national or international level?"  They never can.

There are however, a couple of redeeming qualities of Total Immersion - specifically for newer swimmers or those swimmers that are struggling to progress.  If you are currently swimming at +/- a 2:15/100 pace or slower, this is for you.  Most new swimmers tend to "fight" the water and they share the common belief that "faster is faster."  Let me explain - newer swimmers tend to thrash around quite a lot.  They have a great deal of splash, their form is generally poor and they expend a tremendous amount of energy to do . . . not very much.  As they progress and begin to smooth out and develop some technique, they tend to mistakenly believe if they do things faster, they will go faster through the water.  I call this "Beating the water into submission," and it is very inefficient, resulting in a VERY tired swimmer, very quickly.  One of the things that Total Immersion does is to slow things down, teach streamlining and balance.  For the new or struggling swimmer, Total Immersion may be the answer to get you started swimming properly.  However, in my opinion, once you have progressed to 2:15/100 or faster, you are beyond what TI can do for you.

Let me be clear - there is no replacement for "eyes on deck."  Having a live coach spending one on one time with you is the fastest way to become an accomplished swimmer.  Unfortunately, that is not always possible.  Absent a good relationship with someone that can help using video tape etc., then TI is better than nothing.  In that sense, I consider Total Immersion a 'last resort.'

Enough said about TI.

Now real quickly, my opinion on the use of fins and drills in training.  In nearly 15 years of competitive swimming with over 50,000,000 meters in the pool training, I NEVER, not once, NEVER put on a pair of fins.  Have times changed in the years since I hung up my competitive Speedo?  Yes, absolutely.  Yet, nobody has ever been able to give me valid rationale for the use of fins.  They say they increase flexibility in the ankles.  I agree, they do - but you can do the same thing, much more quickly, with a targeted stretching program.  It is said they increase strength in the ankle.  Again, I agree, they do - but here again, you can do the same thing, FAR more quickly, with a targeted program in the gym.  My favorite one is that using fins increases you speed through the water so you experience the catch at the higher speed.  That is all well and good except you don't get to use the fins in a race.  You develop feel for the water and a proper catch by swimming - at whatever speed you swim at.  Artificially increasing your speed through the use of fins does absolutely NOTHING for developing a feel for the water or a proper catch at your 'normal' speed.  I see no value in the use of fins.  If anything, I think using fins may actually slow progress down.

This is an area where I believe coaches are doing a dis-service to their swimmers.  I kind of feel that coaches are often overworked and have so many swimmers in the water that they simply don't have time to dedicate to proper stroke instruction so they resort to "toys" and drills.  Back when I was swimming we used paddles and ankle bands during our base phase as we worked on stoke technique.  Then we VERY rarely used a kick board for a kick set.  That was it.  Now days, there are paddles and pull buoys, snorkels and fins, and you name it.  I have seen swimmers show up at a workout with a backpack full of toys.  They use those toys during training in various drills.  I do believe that drills OCCASIONALLY have their place.  However, a drill should be specific to the swimmer in question.  It should be one that the swimmer can EASILY see if he/she is doing properly, and a drill should only be a few minutes of a workout.  When a workout becomes a third drills, a quarter kicking, another quarter using fins and such with the final amount of time actually swimming, something is wrong.

If you want to swim fast, then swim.  Swim lots.  When you are done swimming a lot, swim some more.  Then do it again tomorrow.  That is the secret to swimming fast.  Once you have developed proper stroke technique and adequate swim fitness, you should strive for 3-4 times per week in the pool for at least 60-90 minutes per session.  To become an accomplished, fast swimmer, four times per week is good, five is even better if you can manage it.

Having a written training plan is always preferable to having no plan.  Here on BT there are a number of plans available and most, if not all, of the BT training plans were written by Mike Ricci.  Mike is the current USAT National Coach of the Year so he clearly knows what he is talking about.  That said, the plans here on BT can best be described as GENERAL plans, meaning they are generic and were not developed specifically for YOU.  As such, even if they say 'beginner' they may not truly take into account an aspiring athlete who is actually a novice.  Nor do they take into account the intermediate or advanced athlete that may choose to go with a 'lower' plan.  If the plans have one failing, it is in the swimming portion in my opinion as they are often heavy on kicking sets.  If you look at Mike's bio you will see that he was a swimming coach at one time.  I believe that swimmers and triathletes training for the swim are training for vastly different events and as such, the training needs to be done differently.  My opinion is for triathlon, that means less kicking and more swimming.  The BT plans all follow typical periodization schedules and if you follow them, you WILL progress.  I think a one-on-one coaching relationship is the best way to go, but not everyone can afford that.  The Beginner Triathlete Plans are very good for what they are.  As I said, having a written plan is better than just guessing.

Now Deb, finally, to answer your question, "My question to you Scott is what you would recommend doing where the plan calls for kicking laps? Or is there a purpose to them?"  You probably know what my answer to your question is going to be if you have read this book.  I would substitute swimming for the kicking sets.  I can't really answer specifically what the replacement swim sets would look like not knowing which plan you are following or where you are in the plan.  Let me know which plan and where you are at and we can work out an alternative to the kicking.  As to improving your overall swim; if it is possible, I would work with a coach or instructor on occasion to make sure your stroke technique is correct.  If you don't have a coach and can have someone video tape you in the pool, I will be happy to take a look and offer suggestions for improvement.

Hopefully that answered your question, plus a lot of other stuff that you may or may not have been interested in.

Hey everyone!  I'm falling behind again.  Lots going on at work plus trying to get ready for my race on Saturday - it's a biathlon, 4 mi run followed by 20 mi bike.  I expect it to be a small race (Race for the Cure and a pretty popular local triathlon are also going on this weekend) so there's a good chance I'll finish last or close to it but I think I'm ready for it.  And the weather should be just about perfect after a week of nothing but rain. 

Steve - sorry to hear about the accident.  Hope you're recovering well!

Scott - I'm going to have to check out your website I think.  I've been feeling the urge to get back in the pool (after not swimming for about 9 months!).  There's a triathlon next month that I'm considering but don't want to commit to until I know how much "swim fitness" I've lost.  I feel like I'm an OK swimmer, just really slow.  And the triathlon is a lake swim so that adds another worry for me.  I'm going to get back in the pool on Sunday and see how things go - hope you don't mind if I ask for some advice afterwards.

Good luck to anyone else who's racing this weekend!
Janet

Scott,

If you have one more opportunity to get in the pool before your tri this weekend, I suggest you do a bit of work on the head up water polo stroke just so you are comfortable doing it.  Yes, it is slower, but it is a good skill to have available.  If the water is rough, by which I mean more than +/- a foot of swell, which can easily happen in the ocean, a lake, or a river if the wind comes up, sighting with crocodile eyes will not serve you very well.  Nice to have the extra arrow in your quiver so to speak.

Good luck!  Have a great race!

Janet,

Good luck on your race this weekend!

I will be happy to answer any questions you have.  Nothing makes me happier then helping someone become a more proficient swimmer.

Hey Steve -

Glad you made it home.  Keep positive - it could have been a LOT worse.

Good luck Janet, EL Scott and Karl!!  (and anyone else who is racing)

Glad to hear you made it home Steve!

I will be doing an Oly on Sunday.  I should be okay for the swim and bike assuming the weather clears up a little.  The run will be interesting.   I tore some muscle that attaches at the top of my iliac crest (highest point of the pelvis) about 6 weeks ago.   The doc figured it was a small muscle tear based on my mobility and told me not to do it if it hurt.  Fortunately, the only thing causing pain was running and I kept cycling and swimming.   All told I have logged a total of 13 km of slow  runs in the past 6 weeks - all in trial sessions to see if I was ready to resume running.   My last test was a couple days ago and I was fine while running on the treadmill for 3km.   Other muscles tightened up when I was done, but they were fine the next day.   So, I am hoping to be able to slowly run the 10 km at the end of the Oly, but will stop if it becomes painful.