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Gun Advocates, What Say You?? (Page 12)
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 2015-12-04 12:07 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Champion  7821     Brooklyn, NY |  Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You??Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind, it is truly a religion of peace and there are zero Chrsitian leaders that I'm aware of who are teaching their congregations to go out and kill non believers. Even the Westboro Baptists who are by far the most vile delusional form of "Christianity" I'm aware of do it through demonstrations. So, if some whack job goes out and shoots up an abortion clinic because "God told him to" it is him being a whack job and has nothing to do with Christianity. With Islam there are thousands of mosks all over the world that DO teach their followers to kill infidels at every moment they get. They encourage them from a young age to become martyrs with promises of 72 virgins and all that nonsense. This IS part of their religion and the people who are following through with it are different than somebody who says "god told me to kill". I just saw an article last night where they had a group of 8-10 year old boys who they were teaching military tactics to and had them each execute an infidel (for real) at the end of the training.
Again, just to be sure I'm following, since I'm not a religious scholar by any means: You're saying that a Christian who kills on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Christianity, but a Muslim who doesn't kill on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Islam? |
| 2015-12-04 12:42 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Again, just to be sure I'm following, since I'm not a religious scholar by any means: You're saying that a Christian who kills on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Christianity, but a Muslim who doesn't kill on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Islam? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind, it is truly a religion of peace and there are zero Chrsitian leaders that I'm aware of who are teaching their congregations to go out and kill non believers. Even the Westboro Baptists who are by far the most vile delusional form of "Christianity" I'm aware of do it through demonstrations. So, if some whack job goes out and shoots up an abortion clinic because "God told him to" it is him being a whack job and has nothing to do with Christianity. With Islam there are thousands of mosks all over the world that DO teach their followers to kill infidels at every moment they get. They encourage them from a young age to become martyrs with promises of 72 virgins and all that nonsense. This IS part of their religion and the people who are following through with it are different than somebody who says "god told me to kill". I just saw an article last night where they had a group of 8-10 year old boys who they were teaching military tactics to and had them each execute an infidel (for real) at the end of the training.
I think for me it's pretty simple. Radical Muslims, ie: ISIS, have declared war on the rest of the world. They have stated that they see these times as the end times and this war that they are engaged in as the end war. It's actually NOT terrorism to them at all......it's a war, a jihad, against all infidels, and Govts. ran by infidels. Ok, I'll take them at their word.....they seem like they mean business to me. When some radical Christian group declares war on all of the non-believers of Christianity I'm going to take them at their word too. Right now, the radical Muslims are the problem. (actually, a very specific problem, of course there are others) However, like I said, I think the world Govts., including our own, should be fighting them with the resources of their armies. This issue has little to nothing to do with gun control. Edited by Left Brain 2015-12-04 12:44 PM |
| 2015-12-04 12:47 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? If I were King I would go ahead and supply the leader of ISIS with 72 virgins right now. In about a week he'd probably call off the war by letting his fellow radicals know it ain't really all it's cracked up to be. |
| 2015-12-04 3:04 PM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind, it is truly a religion of peace and there are zero Chrsitian leaders that I'm aware of who are teaching their congregations to go out and kill non believers. Even the Westboro Baptists who are by far the most vile delusional form of "Christianity" I'm aware of do it through demonstrations. So, if some whack job goes out and shoots up an abortion clinic because "God told him to" it is him being a whack job and has nothing to do with Christianity. With Islam there are thousands of mosks all over the world that DO teach their followers to kill infidels at every moment they get. They encourage them from a young age to become martyrs with promises of 72 virgins and all that nonsense. This IS part of their religion and the people who are following through with it are different than somebody who says "god told me to kill". I just saw an article last night where they had a group of 8-10 year old boys who they were teaching military tactics to and had them each execute an infidel (for real) at the end of the training.
Again, just to be sure I'm following, since I'm not a religious scholar by any means: You're saying that a Christian who kills on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Christianity, but a Muslim who doesn't kill on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Islam? A Christian cannot kill "on behalf of his religion". If one claims to, it is heresy. Christ set the example for us to follow which is to love everyone. If we truly follow Christ, then we belong to him and must suffer whatever the world brings upon us, even death. The theologian Bonhoeffer, goes into great detail in The Cost of Discipleship, which every christian should read and study IMHO, on what it means to truly follow Christ. I have not studied the theology of Islam, so I cannot answer directly about following their tenants. However after reading the Quran in school many years ago, there are numerous areas that instruct how non believers are to be treated. That said, I can see where some Muslims justify their violent, murderous behavior based on what is in the Quran. |
| 2015-12-04 3:07 PM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Again, just to be sure I'm following, since I'm not a religious scholar by any means: You're saying that a Christian who kills on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Christianity, but a Muslim who doesn't kill on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Islam? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind, it is truly a religion of peace and there are zero Chrsitian leaders that I'm aware of who are teaching their congregations to go out and kill non believers. Even the Westboro Baptists who are by far the most vile delusional form of "Christianity" I'm aware of do it through demonstrations. So, if some whack job goes out and shoots up an abortion clinic because "God told him to" it is him being a whack job and has nothing to do with Christianity. With Islam there are thousands of mosks all over the world that DO teach their followers to kill infidels at every moment they get. They encourage them from a young age to become martyrs with promises of 72 virgins and all that nonsense. This IS part of their religion and the people who are following through with it are different than somebody who says "god told me to kill". I just saw an article last night where they had a group of 8-10 year old boys who they were teaching military tactics to and had them each execute an infidel (for real) at the end of the training.
You are correct. I'm not a scholar by any means either but the topic does fascinate me. I read a book on Islam late last year and I've read most of the quran. It's very difficult to argue that the quran doesn't prescribe the killing of infidels, but the majority of muslims choose to interpret this call as symbolic or as literal, but not act on it. |
| 2015-12-04 3:08 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Again, just to be sure I'm following, since I'm not a religious scholar by any means: You're saying that a Christian who kills on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Christianity, but a Muslim who doesn't kill on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Islam? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind, it is truly a religion of peace and there are zero Chrsitian leaders that I'm aware of who are teaching their congregations to go out and kill non believers. Even the Westboro Baptists who are by far the most vile delusional form of "Christianity" I'm aware of do it through demonstrations. So, if some whack job goes out and shoots up an abortion clinic because "God told him to" it is him being a whack job and has nothing to do with Christianity. With Islam there are thousands of mosks all over the world that DO teach their followers to kill infidels at every moment they get. They encourage them from a young age to become martyrs with promises of 72 virgins and all that nonsense. This IS part of their religion and the people who are following through with it are different than somebody who says "god told me to kill". I just saw an article last night where they had a group of 8-10 year old boys who they were teaching military tactics to and had them each execute an infidel (for real) at the end of the training.
I think for me it's pretty simple. Radical Muslims, ie: ISIS, have declared war on the rest of the world. They have stated that they see these times as the end times and this war that they are engaged in as the end war. It's actually NOT terrorism to them at all......it's a war, a jihad, against all infidels, and Govts. ran by infidels. Ok, I'll take them at their word.....they seem like they mean business to me. When some radical Christian group declares war on all of the non-believers of Christianity I'm going to take them at their word too. Right now, the radical Muslims are the problem. (actually, a very specific problem, of course there are others) However, like I said, I think the world Govts., including our own, should be fighting them with the resources of their armies. This issue has little to nothing to do with gun control. This has to deal with gun control. Gun violence down, except in gun free zones. http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/12/04/washington-post-... |
| 2015-12-04 3:13 PM in reply to: NXS |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by Left Brain This has to deal with gun control. Gun violence down, except in gun free zones. http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/12/04/washington-post-... Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Again, just to be sure I'm following, since I'm not a religious scholar by any means: You're saying that a Christian who kills on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Christianity, but a Muslim who doesn't kill on behalf of his religion is defying the tenets of Islam? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind, it is truly a religion of peace and there are zero Chrsitian leaders that I'm aware of who are teaching their congregations to go out and kill non believers. Even the Westboro Baptists who are by far the most vile delusional form of "Christianity" I'm aware of do it through demonstrations. So, if some whack job goes out and shoots up an abortion clinic because "God told him to" it is him being a whack job and has nothing to do with Christianity. With Islam there are thousands of mosks all over the world that DO teach their followers to kill infidels at every moment they get. They encourage them from a young age to become martyrs with promises of 72 virgins and all that nonsense. This IS part of their religion and the people who are following through with it are different than somebody who says "god told me to kill". I just saw an article last night where they had a group of 8-10 year old boys who they were teaching military tactics to and had them each execute an infidel (for real) at the end of the training.
I think for me it's pretty simple. Radical Muslims, ie: ISIS, have declared war on the rest of the world. They have stated that they see these times as the end times and this war that they are engaged in as the end war. It's actually NOT terrorism to them at all......it's a war, a jihad, against all infidels, and Govts. ran by infidels. Ok, I'll take them at their word.....they seem like they mean business to me. When some radical Christian group declares war on all of the non-believers of Christianity I'm going to take them at their word too. Right now, the radical Muslims are the problem. (actually, a very specific problem, of course there are others) However, like I said, I think the world Govts., including our own, should be fighting them with the resources of their armies. This issue has little to nothing to do with gun control. I guess my point is that what we want to call "terrorism" from Muslim extremists is, in my mind, neither criminal nor terrorism, it is simply an act of war.....the same as any other mission/attack in any other war theater. I don't want to muddy the water by lumping all of this together......because it's apples and oranges to me. |
| 2015-12-06 3:06 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQ |
| 2015-12-06 4:44 PM in reply to: 0 |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQ It was interesting they didn't go to the gospels and see what Christ did and taught. I guess they couldn't find "by this they will know that you are my disciples, if you love another". Edited by NXS 2015-12-06 4:45 PM |
| 2015-12-06 7:02 PM in reply to: NXS |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? I'm worried about people trying to kill other people and you guys are worried about religion. Personally, I just try to live my life in a way that I think someone greater than me would want me to live it. In the end, it'll either matter or it won't. One way I'll be Ok, the other won't matter. I'm staying the course. |
| 2015-12-06 8:34 PM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Anybody who tries to go into the old testament to take things out of context does not understand Christianity. It's a standard liberal tactic to try and make Christianity into something that it is not. |
| 2015-12-06 10:46 PM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Anybody who tries to go into the old testament to take things out of context does not understand Christianity. It's a standard liberal tactic to try and make Christianity into something that it is not. Riiiight, but you're a religious scholar who's' deeply familiar with the intricacies of the Koran, and you understand everything about it, so you'd never make some sweeping statement about an entire religion based on stuff you learned on infowars. It's a standard conservative tactic to try to paint anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Christian out to be a barbarian. Here's what Christianity is: it's an ancient religion with principles written down centuries ago by and interpreted and reinterpreted thousands of times by millions of people over the millennia. As such, it's been interpreted a number of ways and some of those ways involve violence, atrocities, etc. That doesn't mean the entire religion is a violent religion. To suggest that there is only one way to interpret any religion, including Christianity is absurd. You can't even agree on one calendar. Edited by jmk-brooklyn 2015-12-06 10:47 PM |
| 2015-12-07 6:17 AM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Anybody who tries to go into the old testament to take things out of context does not understand Christianity. It's a standard liberal tactic to try and make Christianity into something that it is not. Riiiight, but you're a religious scholar who's' deeply familiar with the intricacies of the Koran, and you understand everything about it, so you'd never make some sweeping statement about an entire religion based on stuff you learned on infowars. It's a standard conservative tactic to try to paint anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Christian out to be a barbarian. Here's what Christianity is: it's an ancient religion with principles written down centuries ago by and interpreted and reinterpreted thousands of times by millions of people over the millennia. As such, it's been interpreted a number of ways and some of those ways involve violence, atrocities, etc. That doesn't mean the entire religion is a violent religion. To suggest that there is only one way to interpret any religion, including Christianity is absurd. You can't even agree on one calendar. Jim I will say it again, you cannot kill in the name of the Christian religion period. If someone in the past did, it was just as false teaching as it is today. There is no way the teachings of Christ can be interpreted that way. Christ was the "suffering servant" to his death. Not once did he teach hate, violence, or murder. On the other hand, there are teachings of Mohammad in the Quran that can be and are interpreted as a call to violence and murder. A very big difference. I have never said all Muslims are violent, they aren't. However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings. |
| 2015-12-07 8:57 AM in reply to: NXS |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Anybody who tries to go into the old testament to take things out of context does not understand Christianity. It's a standard liberal tactic to try and make Christianity into something that it is not. Riiiight, but you're a religious scholar who's' deeply familiar with the intricacies of the Koran, and you understand everything about it, so you'd never make some sweeping statement about an entire religion based on stuff you learned on infowars. It's a standard conservative tactic to try to paint anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Christian out to be a barbarian. Here's what Christianity is: it's an ancient religion with principles written down centuries ago by and interpreted and reinterpreted thousands of times by millions of people over the millennia. As such, it's been interpreted a number of ways and some of those ways involve violence, atrocities, etc. That doesn't mean the entire religion is a violent religion. To suggest that there is only one way to interpret any religion, including Christianity is absurd. You can't even agree on one calendar. Jim I will say it again, you cannot kill in the name of the Christian religion period. If someone in the past did, it was just as false teaching as it is today. There is no way the teachings of Christ can be interpreted that way. Christ was the "suffering servant" to his death. Not once did he teach hate, violence, or murder. On the other hand, there are teachings of Mohammad in the Quran that can be and are interpreted as a call to violence and murder. A very big difference. I have never said all Muslims are violent, they aren't. However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings. I'm sure what you say about Christianity is true, and that most Christians embody those positive values-- certainly most of the ones I know do. I'm not a religious scholar by any means and I would never suggest that I was an expert on any religion-- even my own. Where I get annoyed is when people who know very little about another religion or culture make judgments about it based on what they've been told. Just as there are violent passages in the Old Testament, there are violent passages in the Koran, it's true, but that there are those passages that have been interpreted as some to be a call to violence does not mean that Islam is a "violent religion" any more than the violent passages in the Bible suggest that Judaism or Christianity are. There are over a billion Muslims in the world and very, very few of them are terrorists. You also said, "However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings.", which is something one hears a lot these days. You said yourself on another thread that you don't personally know any Muslims or have much exposure to them where you live. So, I'd ask on what basis are you determining that "the Muslim community"-- to which, by your own admission, you have no personal exposure, isn't speaking out against violence? I can tell you that in NYC, which has a pretty big Muslim community, there's been an almost constant outpouring of sympathy for the victims of terrorism and criticism of radical Islam from the mainstream Muslim community here, going all the way back to the first WTC bombing. Is it possible that you're not aware of Muslim leaders in the US and abroad speaking out against radical Islam because the news outlets that you're listening to aren't showing it to you? They are, after all, the ones who are continuing to promote the false narrative that thousands and thousands of American Muslims cheered the WTC attack, which is unquestionably false. There are unquestionably radicalized Muslims in the US who seek to do us harm. To find them and stop them effectively will require help from the law-abiding and peaceful Muslim community who are not our enemies. To assume that every Muslim in the US is a potential terrorist is not only impractical, because we can no sooner investigate, imprison or deport all of them than we can all of the illegal immigrants, but to demonize law-abiding Muslims here and abroad plays right into the hands of our enemies who seek to divide us. We're all nervous and we have a right to be, but don't let that change your fundamental values or turn you against your fellow Americans. |
| 2015-12-07 8:57 AM in reply to: NXS |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Jim I will say it again, you cannot kill in the name of the Christian religion period. If someone in the past did, it was just as false teaching as it is today. There is no way the teachings of Christ can be interpreted that way. Christ was the "suffering servant" to his death. Not once did he teach hate, violence, or murder. On the other hand, there are teachings of Mohammad in the Quran that can be and are interpreted as a call to violence and murder. A very big difference. I have never said all Muslims are violent, they aren't. However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings. Originally posted by tuwood Riiiight, but you're a religious scholar who's' deeply familiar with the intricacies of the Koran, and you understand everything about it, so you'd never make some sweeping statement about an entire religion based on stuff you learned on infowars. It's a standard conservative tactic to try to paint anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Christian out to be a barbarian. Here's what Christianity is: it's an ancient religion with principles written down centuries ago by and interpreted and reinterpreted thousands of times by millions of people over the millennia. As such, it's been interpreted a number of ways and some of those ways involve violence, atrocities, etc. That doesn't mean the entire religion is a violent religion. To suggest that there is only one way to interpret any religion, including Christianity is absurd. You can't even agree on one calendar. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Anybody who tries to go into the old testament to take things out of context does not understand Christianity. It's a standard liberal tactic to try and make Christianity into something that it is not. sell you BS somewhere else. Your religion is just as violent go read the old testament, you can hardly get through a page of the old testament without god telling the Israelites to kill someone. new testament examples: Luke 19:27: |
| 2015-12-07 9:44 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Luke 19:27:
Dude - Luke was NOT playing. |
| 2015-12-07 10:12 AM in reply to: jmk-brooklyn |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by NXS I'm sure what you say about Christianity is true, and that most Christians embody those positive values-- certainly most of the ones I know do. I'm not a religious scholar by any means and I would never suggest that I was an expert on any religion-- even my own. Where I get annoyed is when people who know very little about another religion or culture make judgments about it based on what they've been told. Just as there are violent passages in the Old Testament, there are violent passages in the Koran, it's true, but that there are those passages that have been interpreted as some to be a call to violence does not mean that Islam is a "violent religion" any more than the violent passages in the Bible suggest that Judaism or Christianity are. There are over a billion Muslims in the world and very, very few of them are terrorists. You also said, "However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings.", which is something one hears a lot these days. You said yourself on another thread that you don't personally know any Muslims or have much exposure to them where you live. So, I'd ask on what basis are you determining that "the Muslim community"-- to which, by your own admission, you have no personal exposure, isn't speaking out against violence? I can tell you that in NYC, which has a pretty big Muslim community, there's been an almost constant outpouring of sympathy for the victims of terrorism and criticism of radical Islam from the mainstream Muslim community here, going all the way back to the first WTC bombing. Is it possible that you're not aware of Muslim leaders in the US and abroad speaking out against radical Islam because the news outlets that you're listening to aren't showing it to you? They are, after all, the ones who are continuing to promote the false narrative that thousands and thousands of American Muslims cheered the WTC attack, which is unquestionably false. There are unquestionably radicalized Muslims in the US who seek to do us harm. To find them and stop them effectively will require help from the law-abiding and peaceful Muslim community who are not our enemies. To assume that every Muslim in the US is a potential terrorist is not only impractical, because we can no sooner investigate, imprison or deport all of them than we can all of the illegal immigrants, but to demonize law-abiding Muslims here and abroad plays right into the hands of our enemies who seek to divide us. We're all nervous and we have a right to be, but don't let that change your fundamental values or turn you against your fellow Americans. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Jim I will say it again, you cannot kill in the name of the Christian religion period. If someone in the past did, it was just as false teaching as it is today. There is no way the teachings of Christ can be interpreted that way. Christ was the "suffering servant" to his death. Not once did he teach hate, violence, or murder. On the other hand, there are teachings of Mohammad in the Quran that can be and are interpreted as a call to violence and murder. A very big difference. I have never said all Muslims are violent, they aren't. However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings. Originally posted by tuwood Riiiight, but you're a religious scholar who's' deeply familiar with the intricacies of the Koran, and you understand everything about it, so you'd never make some sweeping statement about an entire religion based on stuff you learned on infowars. It's a standard conservative tactic to try to paint anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Christian out to be a barbarian. Here's what Christianity is: it's an ancient religion with principles written down centuries ago by and interpreted and reinterpreted thousands of times by millions of people over the millennia. As such, it's been interpreted a number of ways and some of those ways involve violence, atrocities, etc. That doesn't mean the entire religion is a violent religion. To suggest that there is only one way to interpret any religion, including Christianity is absurd. You can't even agree on one calendar. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Anybody who tries to go into the old testament to take things out of context does not understand Christianity. It's a standard liberal tactic to try and make Christianity into something that it is not. You do realize you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing. You're hearing what people are saying of Islam and Christianity and casting judgements based on what you "heard". You've "heard" Islam is a religion of peace so therefore it is. You've "heard" that Christianity is a religion of violence, so therefore it is. If you're truly interested in this topic i'd direct you here as a good starting point to learn more about the comparisons.
|
| 2015-12-07 10:24 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by NXS I'm sure what you say about Christianity is true, and that most Christians embody those positive values-- certainly most of the ones I know do. I'm not a religious scholar by any means and I would never suggest that I was an expert on any religion-- even my own. Where I get annoyed is when people who know very little about another religion or culture make judgments about it based on what they've been told. Just as there are violent passages in the Old Testament, there are violent passages in the Koran, it's true, but that there are those passages that have been interpreted as some to be a call to violence does not mean that Islam is a "violent religion" any more than the violent passages in the Bible suggest that Judaism or Christianity are. There are over a billion Muslims in the world and very, very few of them are terrorists. You also said, "However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings.", which is something one hears a lot these days. You said yourself on another thread that you don't personally know any Muslims or have much exposure to them where you live. So, I'd ask on what basis are you determining that "the Muslim community"-- to which, by your own admission, you have no personal exposure, isn't speaking out against violence? I can tell you that in NYC, which has a pretty big Muslim community, there's been an almost constant outpouring of sympathy for the victims of terrorism and criticism of radical Islam from the mainstream Muslim community here, going all the way back to the first WTC bombing. Is it possible that you're not aware of Muslim leaders in the US and abroad speaking out against radical Islam because the news outlets that you're listening to aren't showing it to you? They are, after all, the ones who are continuing to promote the false narrative that thousands and thousands of American Muslims cheered the WTC attack, which is unquestionably false. There are unquestionably radicalized Muslims in the US who seek to do us harm. To find them and stop them effectively will require help from the law-abiding and peaceful Muslim community who are not our enemies. To assume that every Muslim in the US is a potential terrorist is not only impractical, because we can no sooner investigate, imprison or deport all of them than we can all of the illegal immigrants, but to demonize law-abiding Muslims here and abroad plays right into the hands of our enemies who seek to divide us. We're all nervous and we have a right to be, but don't let that change your fundamental values or turn you against your fellow Americans. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Jim I will say it again, you cannot kill in the name of the Christian religion period. If someone in the past did, it was just as false teaching as it is today. There is no way the teachings of Christ can be interpreted that way. Christ was the "suffering servant" to his death. Not once did he teach hate, violence, or murder. On the other hand, there are teachings of Mohammad in the Quran that can be and are interpreted as a call to violence and murder. A very big difference. I have never said all Muslims are violent, they aren't. However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings. Originally posted by tuwood Riiiight, but you're a religious scholar who's' deeply familiar with the intricacies of the Koran, and you understand everything about it, so you'd never make some sweeping statement about an entire religion based on stuff you learned on infowars. It's a standard conservative tactic to try to paint anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Christian out to be a barbarian. Here's what Christianity is: it's an ancient religion with principles written down centuries ago by and interpreted and reinterpreted thousands of times by millions of people over the millennia. As such, it's been interpreted a number of ways and some of those ways involve violence, atrocities, etc. That doesn't mean the entire religion is a violent religion. To suggest that there is only one way to interpret any religion, including Christianity is absurd. You can't even agree on one calendar. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Anybody who tries to go into the old testament to take things out of context does not understand Christianity. It's a standard liberal tactic to try and make Christianity into something that it is not. You do realize you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing. You're hearing what people are saying of Islam and Christianity and casting judgements based on what you "heard". You've "heard" Islam is a religion of peace so therefore it is. You've "heard" that Christianity is a religion of violence, so therefore it is. If you're truly interested in this topic i'd direct you here as a good starting point to learn more about the comparisons.
dmiller will smote you for this. Edited by Left Brain 2015-12-07 10:24 AM |
| 2015-12-07 10:37 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? no no LB, I love everyone even if they're always wrong |
| 2015-12-07 10:52 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Jim I will say it again, you cannot kill in the name of the Christian religion period. If someone in the past did, it was just as false teaching as it is today. There is no way the teachings of Christ can be interpreted that way. Christ was the "suffering servant" to his death. Not once did he teach hate, violence, or murder. On the other hand, there are teachings of Mohammad in the Quran that can be and are interpreted as a call to violence and murder. A very big difference. I have never said all Muslims are violent, they aren't. However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings. Originally posted by tuwood Riiiight, but you're a religious scholar who's' deeply familiar with the intricacies of the Koran, and you understand everything about it, so you'd never make some sweeping statement about an entire religion based on stuff you learned on infowars. It's a standard conservative tactic to try to paint anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Christian out to be a barbarian. Here's what Christianity is: it's an ancient religion with principles written down centuries ago by and interpreted and reinterpreted thousands of times by millions of people over the millennia. As such, it's been interpreted a number of ways and some of those ways involve violence, atrocities, etc. That doesn't mean the entire religion is a violent religion. To suggest that there is only one way to interpret any religion, including Christianity is absurd. You can't even agree on one calendar. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Anybody who tries to go into the old testament to take things out of context does not understand Christianity. It's a standard liberal tactic to try and make Christianity into something that it is not. sell you BS somewhere else. Your religion is just as violent go read the old testament, you can hardly get through a page of the old testament without god telling the Israelites to kill someone. new testament examples: Luke 19:27: Luke 19:27 is Jesus telling a parable about a king and his servants. The slay them before me was the king speaking to his servants in the parable. I have to give you credit though because this is the first time I've seen at using this to make Jesus into a killer. /golf clap For better context on Matthew 10:34 you can look at the parallel verse in in Luke 12:49-53 for additional context: Even when Peter, his disciple, raised his sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus rebuked him and told him to put away his sword. "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword (Matthew 26:52). More importantly when comparing Christianity to Islam there is not a single verse in the New Testament that calls the Church to commit violence to spread the gospel or to plant churches or to accomplish anything else. Rather, the New Testament hands the sword over to the State (Rom. 13:1-6).
If you're interested in learning more about the old testament wars i'd recommend this page for you: It even touches on some contrasts between Christianity and Islam at the end.
|
| 2015-12-07 10:53 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by dmiller5 no no LB, I love everyone even if they're always wrong for the record (and dmiller knows this), I really like him and enjoy our discussions. |
| 2015-12-07 11:12 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by NXS I'm sure what you say about Christianity is true, and that most Christians embody those positive values-- certainly most of the ones I know do. I'm not a religious scholar by any means and I would never suggest that I was an expert on any religion-- even my own. Where I get annoyed is when people who know very little about another religion or culture make judgments about it based on what they've been told. Just as there are violent passages in the Old Testament, there are violent passages in the Koran, it's true, but that there are those passages that have been interpreted as some to be a call to violence does not mean that Islam is a "violent religion" any more than the violent passages in the Bible suggest that Judaism or Christianity are. There are over a billion Muslims in the world and very, very few of them are terrorists. You also said, "However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings.", which is something one hears a lot these days. You said yourself on another thread that you don't personally know any Muslims or have much exposure to them where you live. So, I'd ask on what basis are you determining that "the Muslim community"-- to which, by your own admission, you have no personal exposure, isn't speaking out against violence? I can tell you that in NYC, which has a pretty big Muslim community, there's been an almost constant outpouring of sympathy for the victims of terrorism and criticism of radical Islam from the mainstream Muslim community here, going all the way back to the first WTC bombing. Is it possible that you're not aware of Muslim leaders in the US and abroad speaking out against radical Islam because the news outlets that you're listening to aren't showing it to you? They are, after all, the ones who are continuing to promote the false narrative that thousands and thousands of American Muslims cheered the WTC attack, which is unquestionably false. There are unquestionably radicalized Muslims in the US who seek to do us harm. To find them and stop them effectively will require help from the law-abiding and peaceful Muslim community who are not our enemies. To assume that every Muslim in the US is a potential terrorist is not only impractical, because we can no sooner investigate, imprison or deport all of them than we can all of the illegal immigrants, but to demonize law-abiding Muslims here and abroad plays right into the hands of our enemies who seek to divide us. We're all nervous and we have a right to be, but don't let that change your fundamental values or turn you against your fellow Americans. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Jim I will say it again, you cannot kill in the name of the Christian religion period. If someone in the past did, it was just as false teaching as it is today. There is no way the teachings of Christ can be interpreted that way. Christ was the "suffering servant" to his death. Not once did he teach hate, violence, or murder. On the other hand, there are teachings of Mohammad in the Quran that can be and are interpreted as a call to violence and murder. A very big difference. I have never said all Muslims are violent, they aren't. However Islam has a big problem within itself that seems to be tolerated as little is said condemning terrorist acts or to correct improper teachings. Originally posted by tuwood Riiiight, but you're a religious scholar who's' deeply familiar with the intricacies of the Koran, and you understand everything about it, so you'd never make some sweeping statement about an entire religion based on stuff you learned on infowars. It's a standard conservative tactic to try to paint anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Christian out to be a barbarian. Here's what Christianity is: it's an ancient religion with principles written down centuries ago by and interpreted and reinterpreted thousands of times by millions of people over the millennia. As such, it's been interpreted a number of ways and some of those ways involve violence, atrocities, etc. That doesn't mean the entire religion is a violent religion. To suggest that there is only one way to interpret any religion, including Christianity is absurd. You can't even agree on one calendar. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by tuwood Yeah, about that... http://youtu.be/zEnWw_lH4tQOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by NXS Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Murder isn't a tenant of the Christian faith. We are not instructed to kill non believers or to purge an area of people of different faiths. So yes, the guy may be a loner in the sense that he is not following what Christ actually taught. Last time I checked, there wasn't a movement in the Christian church to kill people at abortion clinics. Originally posted by tuwood Let me make sure I follow... So, a Muslim who kills someone because he thinks G-d wants him to is a jihadi terrorist, but, for example, a Christian guy who murders people at a Planned Parenthood or kills a doctor on behalf of his G-d whom he believes opposes abortion is...what? Mentally ill? A loner? "Irrational"? Something other than a terrorist? They're BOTH terrorists. That one happens to celebrate the same holidays as you does not exempt him from being so. Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn [ I actually agree with you 100%. The part I struggle with is that piece about "I think most of us can agree that anyone who is willing to take another human life with a gun or any other means is mentally ill to some extent". It's a pretty common meme in the liberal progressive media space that when a black criminal shoots someone, according to the mainstream press, he's a thug and an indictment of his entire culture, and when a person of middle eastern descent kills people, they're terrorists and represent an indictment of their culture, but when the shooter is a white guy, he's either "mentally ill" or a "loner". Nobody's calling the kid who killed those people in South Carolina or the one the other day in Colorado a terrorist, but you can bet that the couple from Berdoo will be considered radical muslims and so on... I guess my point is that we have to start being realistic about where the problems are actually coming from if we want a meaningful reduction in gun violence in the US. People are losing their minds over Syrian refugees because there might be terrorists among them, but there are plenty of people in the US who are just as capable as anyone in ISIS of doing horrible things and we sort of write them off as loners or mentally ill instead of calling them what they are-- terrorists, and instead we pretend that the bigger threat is external when it isn't. I get what you're saying, but the one difference between the Islamic Terrorists is that they are rational people who are religious warriors (jihadis) on a mission from God to kill all infidels. Sure, you can say religion is a mental illness but they truly believe this garbage. Murder has been a part of the Christian Church for a long long time. Crusades, inquisition, all other types of holy wars and excuses to kill. The hypocrisy is rich on the part of american christians. at some point, in every religion, men (and women) have found an excuse to use it to hurt people. the sooner you admit that, the sooner we can figure out a way to stop the crazies with the help of the muslims who don't want to kill everyone (most of them) lol, Murder has never been a part of the Christianity. Just because somebody says they kill for christianity doesn't make it "part of the church". Sure, there were atrocities, but we're talking about a war that was conducted hundreds of years ago. Find me any war that atrocities weren't committed. Christianity in no way shape or form condones violence of any kind,
Anybody who tries to go into the old testament to take things out of context does not understand Christianity. It's a standard liberal tactic to try and make Christianity into something that it is not. You do realize you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing. You're hearing what people are saying of Islam and Christianity and casting judgements based on what you "heard". You've "heard" Islam is a religion of peace so therefore it is. You've "heard" that Christianity is a religion of violence, so therefore it is. If you're truly interested in this topic i'd direct you here as a good starting point to learn more about the comparisons.
I don't think I am at all. On the contrary. My impression of Islam and of Christianity comes from my first hand experience. I've heard Muslim clerics and community leaders in New York speaking out against terrorism for over a decade. I know people who are Muslim in my neighborhood and from what I can observe, they are the same, more or less, as every other family that I know. Likewise, I know Christians and I hear local and other religions leaders (the Cardinal, the Pope, etc.) who espouse love and peace and who are good people, and so I form my judgment based on what I see and what I hear directly from the adherents themselves. I can't see inside their souls, it's true, but that can be said of anyone, can't it? I'm not interested in what Fox News or any medium tells me to think about Islam or Christianity, because I've formed my own opinion based on first-hand knowledge. I'm always interested in different points of view, so it's not to say I don't listen to them, but my opinion is not based solely on "what I've heard", it's on what I've seen and what I know. For the record, I never said, "Christianity is a religion of violence". (That was dmiller, and you can take it up with him...) What I said was that there are passages in the Christian bible that are violent, just as there are passages in the Koran that are. It's hypocritical to suggest that one religion is inherently violent based on what it says in their book without acknowledging that there are similar passages in another religion's book. Likewise, it's hypocritical to suggest that simply because some adherents of one religion kill in the name of that religion that they define the religion as a whole. Every faith has had it's bloody histories. There is very much a war going on within Islam, just as there is between some followers of that faith and the rest of the world. And I can tell you that, from where I sit, the peaceful adherents of Islam are very much engaged in that fight-- they just don't make it on the news as often. Mother Theresa said that the best thing you can do to bring about peace in the world is to go home and love your family, and I don't have any doubt that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the US and around the world are doing just that. |
| 2015-12-07 11:14 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Master 2802 Minnetonka, Minnesota Bronze member | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? "You do realize you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing. You're hearing what people are saying of Islam and Christianity and casting judgements based on what you "heard". You've "heard" Islam is a religion of peace so therefore it is. You've "heard" that Christianity is a religion of violence, so therefore it is. If you're truly interested in this topic i'd direct you here as a good starting point to learn more about the comparisons. http://www.equip.org/category/islam/" Sorry, but something called the "Christian Research Institute" whose mission is "Equipping Christians to think and live Christianly" may not be the most even-handed place to start learning about comparative religion. |
| 2015-12-07 11:30 AM in reply to: ejshowers |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by ejshowers "You do realize you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing. You're hearing what people are saying of Islam and Christianity and casting judgements based on what you "heard". You've "heard" Islam is a religion of peace so therefore it is. You've "heard" that Christianity is a religion of violence, so therefore it is. If you're truly interested in this topic i'd direct you here as a good starting point to learn more about the comparisons. http://www.equip.org/category/islam/"Sorry, but something called the "Christian Research Institute" whose mission is "Equipping Christians to think and live Christianly" may not be the most even-handed place to start learning about comparative religion. You might be surprised. |
| 2015-12-07 11:35 AM in reply to: ejshowers |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Gun Advocates, What Say You?? Originally posted by ejshowers "You do realize you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing. You're hearing what people are saying of Islam and Christianity and casting judgements based on what you "heard". You've "heard" Islam is a religion of peace so therefore it is. You've "heard" that Christianity is a religion of violence, so therefore it is. If you're truly interested in this topic i'd direct you here as a good starting point to learn more about the comparisons. http://www.equip.org/category/islam/"Sorry, but something called the "Christian Research Institute" whose mission is "Equipping Christians to think and live Christianly" may not be the most even-handed place to start learning about comparative religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence Here's a little more secular read, if you're interested in learning more. |
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