$1.79's Mentor Group FULL of fast people (Page 13)

Very different place now.  Still want to get to the aquarium!  When I was a kid and riding horses, we'd go to shows up in Roswell and it was considered the far outskirts of Atlanta and the Hyatt Regency (with the blue dome top) was the tallest building in the skyline. 

Atlanta traffic is notorious!!!! 

 

Hello. Been MIA for a while because felt too much of a newbie and it wasn't helping my mental game to be on here with a lot of fairly experienced people. 

Guys, I need help with my swim! I am so behind for my September race date and I am really discouraged about it. I thought I could swim fairly reasonably before starting my training. I get into the pool after years of not swimming, and found I am pathetic! Signed up for private coaching and EVERYTHING needs work. I look longingly at the other people in the pool - how do they make it look so effortless? I cannot relax in the water, my flutter kick is non-existent apparently, and I run out of breath after one lap! Also, every time I swim, I hurt my neck and my lower back (or it triggers old injuries) and my physio says stay out of the water and it delays me even more...

The running and biking are coming along well, but the difficulties in the swim are threatening my mental resolve. I am very determined to get through it, but what else should I be doing? Any advice? Thanks!
 

Please don't let this discourage you.  The purpose of the group is to help people of ALL levels.  And you would be surprised how many people email me on a daily basis because they are embarrassed to ask questions in the thread.  That's why BT created the mentor groups....a safe place to ask even the most basic questions. 



You are NEVER too far behind on the swim.     While the 600m might feel like 6 miles, keep in mind that you will likely be in the water NO longer than 15-20 minutes.  You CAN do that. 

The first thing you MUST do is stop comparing yourself to other swimmers.  I do that all the time in the pool.  I think wow, they make it look SOOOO easy, as I am panting.  But the reality is, I know people say the same thing about me...but I feel like I am floundering in the water on most days.  Second, for beginners, I think swimming needs consistency more than anything.  And that means going to the pool as much as you can.  I don't care if you breaststroke for 300y...you and bonding with the water.  Have a better relationship with the water and you will enjoy swimming more. 

I like to tell this embarrassing story.  Back in 2005, I had the bright idea that I wanted to be a triathlete.  But I couldn't swim.  One day I decided to change all that.  I put on my board shorts, bought goggles and marched down to the local pool.  200y and 20 minutes later I was defeated.  I had to accept that I officially sucked.  At the time, I didn't make enough money to hire a coach.  So I read everything humanly possible on swimming.  And I thought about it.  IMO, swimming requires a lot of analysis.  You need to think about where you body is in relation to the water.  Are you hips sinking?  Is you head out of the water?  What can you do to alter these motions to streamline your body?  That is the question you need to be asking yourself.  

Fast forward a few months and I wrote this in my daily log:

• BEST SWIM EVER!!! YEAH ME!!!! I wasn't a walrus in the water...but not quite a fish. All 100s were between 2:01-2:07. 400 (YEAH) was 8:46. Still slow but this was the first time EVER that I felt really comfortable in the water!!! I actually had a pace and never broke from freestyle. My breathing management was awesome. I hope this becomes more of a habit.

Now, I don't consider myself a super fast swimmer but I think I am competitive.  My 100s are typically 1:25 ish and my 400 is about 6:45.  I now swim laps around my old self.  I say this, not to gloat, but to express how far you can come with hard work.  I have never had personal instruction.  I have never been to a masters class.  Instead, I continually monitor what is going right or wrong with my technique.  But most importantly, I get in the water 2-3x a week and have been for nearly 3 years.  That, to me, is the key to success. 

That is a bit long winded so I will kick it to the rest of the group?  What advice would you offer a beginner who is struggling to swim?  What were some of the most valuable lessons you learned? 

x2 re everything Andrew said! I was also a non-swimmer two years ago.  I know I had swim lessons as a kid, but must not have gone much past "minnow" status.  When I signed up for my first tri I couldn't swim 25 yds without feeling like the lifeguards  might actually have to do something other than look bored.  My journey to learn how to swim as an adult was through a program called "Total Immersion."  I took one of their weekend workshops and started working on drills, drills, and more drills.  Since then I've gone to a few more workshops, including one with Terry Laughlin the founder, and had a few lessons in their studio's endless pools.  I'm still very slow, but somedays I think I could swim forever.  More than anything, it made swimming something I truly enjoy. I highly recommend signing up for a workshop if your budget/schedule allow.  If not, check out the books/dvds.  There are also some good forums on the sight, with some pretty cool video of Terry swimming.  More than anything, get in the pool as much as you can. 

The website is:  www.totalimmersion.net

A thought re your neck and lower back pain after swimming:  it sounds like you might be swimming with your head too high and then compensating for the subsequent body drop/drag by arching your back to get your legs up.  You want to try and find balance in the water.  Drop your head...you should be looking directly down at the beaaauutiful black line.  There should be very little of your cap showing on top of the water. Try "pressing" your chest down and keeping the arch out of your back.  Will help you get balanced/horizontal in the water.  It's all about reducing drag.

And never worry about stupid questions or posts...there are plenty of experts that do that regularly.   Seriously, I've found people on BT to be nothing less than encouraging and helpful and the mentor programs are terrific. 

Just keep at it and you'll get there.  You don't have to be fast.  For a sprint distance tri, the swim is the least important event.  You just need to be able to finish.  Swim time is almost irrelevant. You can make up more time by really working on your transitions and bike for a sprint distance.  Far easier to take 3-5 mins off your total time by really being efficient in T1/T2 and increasing bike pace a bit.  Once I had a 7+ min T1 because my timing chip strap came off when I pulled off my wetsuit.  I didn't notice until I was exiting transition.  So I went back to my spot, but it took me forever to find the bloody thing.  Now how's that for dumb beginner posts???? Bet you won't top that one.

Good luck and keep posting questions.

Another embarrassing story:

I grew up on a lake.  From age 6-16 there probably wasn't a day that passed that I wasn't in the lake swimming.  Spending time in the lake came VERY natural to me.  That was until I entered triathlon.  I went home one weekend and gave and OWS my best.  I lasted all of 20 seconds.  There was no black line, no wall and it was deeper than 5 feet.  I completely freaked out.  I did NOT know how to swim.  I was still determined to become a triathlete so I found the only race in the area that offered a pool swim.  I was too scared of the open water.

So yes, my first tri was in a pool because I was too scared of open water despite growing up on the lake.  I was a HORRIBLE swimmer. 

Thanks for the encouragement. It helps a LOT to hear your stories. Swimming 15-20 minutes for the sprint certainly puts it in perspective, although 750m seems like an insurmountable goal right now. I am determined to be in the water as much as is necessary until something "clicks", and it becomes second nature. The tri I am planning to do IS in open water, so that's something I will have to face as well. But I'll cross that bridge when I get there. For right now, I have purchased flippers to work on my kick, and have all kinds drills that my instructor gave me to work on. Have also started to read the BT forums on swimming.

Your thoughts re neck/back pain are duly noted. I did ask my instructor if my head was too far out of the water and she said 'no'. She did say my hips are dragging though, and that I need to be more streamlined. I will have to experiment and find that optimum body position. I think for the most part, the problem is that I am not relaxed in the water. Need to make the water my friend ;-)

Thanks, again.  

OK mentor... I need you !!!!

Here's where I'm at -
- last full week of training was the first week of June but I didn't do my long bike so my last long bike ride was May 29 at 3h 10 mins.
- the second week of June (8th - 14th) I did 1 long (9 mile) and 2 short runs and 1 60 minute trainer ride, no swims at all.
- this week June 5 - 20 I've done NOTHING .. this week was a scheduled recovery week
- I work nights tonight (Saturday) then I'm off for 5 days and determined to get back on track.

I chose the BT 20 week free HIM plan simply because I have no spare cash right now to even upgrade my membership here at BT.   But I'm feeling like the plan is lacking in bike time so I'd been adding extra time to my bike workouts, and run workouts as I am a slow runner and want to do at least a couple overdistance long runs before the race.  I'm finding 3 pool days a week really time consuming (its a 30 minute drive one way to the pool for me) and I hate having to drive into the city on my day off.

Here are my questions for you:

- since I've had essentially 2 weeks of recovery I'd planned to just go on to week 12 which is where I would be starting on Monday if I had kept up with the plan.  Reasonable plan??
- I'd like to cut the swim training back to 2 days/week and use the extra 2 1/2 hour block of time for an extra bike workout.  The HIM I'm doing has a very hilly and challenging bike course.  I will do at least one additional OWS/week starting the first week of July at a local beach.   The plan I'm using has 3 swims/week - one speed intervals, one long swim, and one that is usually a few 500m sets.  If I'm dropping one, which one should it be?   Or should I make my OWS be a long continuous ~ 45 - 60 minute swiim?

I need help to get back on track

I feel that way every day and when I look at Andrew's thread title 'full of fast people' I think I should leave because I am far from  fast.  Although this is my third tri season I am very much a beginner.


Don't try to fix everything at once.. if your neck and back are hurting your position is probably the problem and you need to relax.   My neck hurts when I try to do my pathetic breaststroke... all the geriatrics at my pool go up and down the lanes doing breaststroke without getting their hair wet.  I have my face in the water because holding my head up hurts my neck.  You have a silver membership here... check out the swim articles and the swim videos here... I watched them over and over before I'd head to the pool and concentrate on just one part of the stroke or the positioning.   Sometimes I would write out a description of what I'm supposed to be doing and put the paper in a ziploc bag and keep it at the end of the lane.  I'd read the description before each length to make sure I was doing things the right way  (as I'd find it hard to remember exactly what to do).   I also bought a really good book that breaks down the stroke and body position really well  called 'Total Swimming' by Janet Evans.
And don't worry... last year at our local tri I had some issues on the 750m swim and ended up doing a combo breast/side stroke / dog paddle for most of the swim finishing in a blistering time of 29 minutes  ( 17 minutes the year before without the freakout) and I was not last out of the water.... you will be fine.

Cathy--

Here are my initial thoughts.  If you have the 20 week plan set up to coincide with the race, then starting Monday you pick back up where you should be.  NO making up past workouts.  They are gone. You start back on week 12.  Will you suffer a bit?  Probably.  Call it kharma 

What I am unable to determine from your logs is how long you are riding.  When you ride 3h 10m how long are you going?  For instance, I know that for me, I might be going 70 miles in that time or I might be going 56.  I believe that you should train by time, but for you to make adjustments, it would be helpful to know the mileage.  I will say that in preparation for both HIMs I have done this year, my coach never had me ride more than 2h 30m.  The interval sessions during the week take care of the rest. 

How confident do you feel about the swim if you reduce a swim workout?  My hesitancy is that it's called a plan for a reason.  And in theory you should follow it.  But if you are uber-confident about surviving the 1.2 mile swim, then the workouts might be negotiable. 

Also, before you make the determination to add another bike to your workout, I want you to look ahead and ask yourself where you think the plan is weak on the bike.  For instance, in week 10, you have 90 minutes on Saturday and 150 minutes on Sunday.  That week alone you will be in the saddle for 7.5 hours.  That is a lot of biking. 

If you are going to change the plan, I would prefer that you add 20-30 minutes (at most) onto your weekly long ride than add a totally new workout. 

Thoughts? 

My long rides have been - May 29 - 3h 10m, 44.4 miles
                                          May 23 - 2h 44m, 39.47 miles
                                          May 17 - 2h 19m, 30.8 miles
                                          May 11 - 1h 50m, 27.8 miles

So you can see I need to add time to long bikes to get anywhere near race distance in training.




Looking at my logs from last year I swam 2X  week most weeks, a few 3X and a couple only 1 X , so I think  2 pool and 1 OWS/ week is what I'll try for.. pretty close to what the plan is other than substituting an OWS for one of the planned pool swims each week.




I don't think the plan is weak on the bike,  if I was close to the speed of an average biker but I'm not.  I'm slow.  My long rides average 13 - 14 mph compared to most average riders who are closer to 16 - 18 mph... that's a difference of 3 - 5 mph which on a 3 hour ride can be the difference between a 40 mile and a 55 mile ride... on race day I think that matters and I think you will agree with me when you see my numbers, that I need  to ride  a longer time than an 'average' rider to get enough training miles in.  Also my bike time at this race last year was 3:59 and it is a 58 mile bike at this race.  I suffered a lot of cramping on the hills at the end of this race and want to avoid that this year if I can.



Thanks for your help.

And it looks like my season is over.  Crashed the bike yesterday at about 20mph.  Broke my right arm in 3 places.  Compound fractures as well.  probably going to take a while to heal.

Sorry to hear that Dan.  That really sucks.  What happened?

Cathy--

Definitely bump up your long rides a bit more.  I think if you can get in at least 2 rides in the 3:45-3:50 range you should be good.  Keep in mind, that there isn't a need to technically ride 56 miles before the race.  That is all mental.  I struggle with this too.  In preparation for NOLA and Gulf Coast, I think I topped out at 50-51 mile rides.  The reason that works is because you are getting additional mileage during the week.  On race day the cumulative is what matters which is why those mid-week rides are SO important. 

Another way to understand this is to look at Ironman or marathoners.  Marathoners will NEVER run 26.2 miles.  In fact, most don't reach 20 mile runs.  Instead, they hover around the 18 mile mark.  BUT in doing so, they run 30-40 miles a week and at different intensities.  The same for Ironman athletes.  I have ridden over 110 miles three times in my life....twice during the Ironman.  Instead, I would focus on 95-100 miles. 

The way I explain it, is that if you can ride 3:45 on a Saturday after 7-8 hours of training during the week then on race day, you can ride 4:00 after a 45 minute swim.  That is why you taper for big races.  Does this make sense?  I just don't want to see you overtrain and go into the race exhausted.  The saying is that it is better to be 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained.  I believe that 100%

Also, tell me more about the cramping.  Do you think it was due to lack of fitness, nutrition, course, weather?  There are a lot of variables in that equation.  What is your nutrition plan for 4 hours on the bike? 

Ditto - that really does SUCK!  Big time.  Tell us what happened.  Dogs involved?  Surgery?

Feel better soon!

I will save Dan the typing.  From tri talk:

I was riding side by side with another rider and saw a car approaching from behind us, moved ahead and singled up, but caught a really small wind gust and got off onto the shoulder of the road.  Twitched back towards the road and caught the lip between the gravel shoulder and the road.  Game over.

Hey Dan - I just checked your logs and looks like you had a race on Saturday - day before this happened.  Did you do the race?  If so, how did it go?  Hope you kicked it was memorable and will carry you thru to the next one........

I don't know what to say except that just sucks.  Glad you weren't more seriously injured.

Dan, so sorry to hear this...very bad news indeed.  Would say get well soon, but think that you've got a bit of a haul ahead of you.  Hopefully you have some family or friends that will wait on you hand and foot for a bit.

I agree with the cumulative effect, which is why I thought about adding a couple extra shorter rides to replace pool workouts.  With only 12 weeks left I was hoping to do 2 longer rides (in the 4 hour range), one each in July & August.  My other long rides I will keep around 3:00- 3:30. 


I don't think I've ever overtrained.... or that it's something I would ever do.  I'm not your typical Type A competitive driven triathlete...  I'm more the 'out here to have fun' type, but I would like to do better than last year and I'm willing to push myself a bit to get there.


My cramping in this race I believe was lack of fitness.  Reading over my race report from last year the cramping started around mile 50 and would hit me on the uphills where my quads would cramp up and I even had to stop and walk up one hill when my quads seized up and I couldn't pedal at all.  I stopped and stretched at the top of that hill (it was the last hill on the bike course) and had no more leg cramps.  
The weather last year... cool and poured rain all day.
Nutrition - On the bike... plan was aerobottle full of water, gel every 30 minutes and bottle of gatorade that I would replace at the second aid station.  Reality was... drank all the water, had I think 5 gels and didn't touch the gatorade... that doesn't sound like much.
On a 3 hour training ride I'll have about 400 calorie meal before I go then have 2 gels or a clif bar during the ride and usually just water to drink.  For a longer ride I bring a bottle of gatorade and money to stop for more if I need to.

So for a 4 hour ride (after a 47 minute swim and likely 3 hours after eating real food), you put maybe 500 calories in your body?  Sounds to me like your muscles had no energy in them to provide you with the power to finish the ride.  Ideally, you need to aim for 300 calories and 20-30 ounces of water per hour.  That would mean 1200 calories and 4 bottles on that ride.  Based on my experience, I would say lack of nutrition bit you more so than lack of training. 

My suggestion for you is to a race simulation for your next ride.  (I know you will roll your eyes at this idea).  Get up at the same time you would for the race.  Have the same breakfast at the same time.  And start riding at approximately the same time you will start the bike. 

I battled a number of GI and nutrition issues because I didn't understand that concept.  I would get up on a Saturday, eat a hearty breakfast, ride and only need 200 calories per hour.  Then on race day, I would fall apart.  Race day is different. 

Also, keep in mind that overtraining isn't limited to OCD, Type A personalities.  I would contend that most beginners over train and are most likely to fall susceptible to the problems.  The legs need rest from time to time.  Recovery and swim days can be your friend    Just be smart and listen to your body. 

My race was awesome.  Once I can type faster I'll post an RR.  Finished 76/600ish.  13/60+ in my AG (which included the top 3 finishers).  My team won fastest club.  I averaged over 20mph on the bike.  And I was, I believe, 3rd fastest on my team.  Plus cut 11:03 off of my time from last year.

Awesome!!!  Just keep that race front and center in your mind over the next few months while you're rehabing and know that you will come back next year even stronger.  From your personal story we all know that you have come so far in your life and just remember this is just a little blip on the radar (something I keep telling myself about my hamstring!).

Wow, Dan.  I am sorry to hear about your arm...Great job on your last race.  What an inspiration to cut so much time off from last year!

Dan, sorry to hear about your arm. Hope you heal up well and fast.