Experior's Group - CLOSED (Page 13)

Biggest gains in swimming will come from improved technique, primarily on the pull.  Pull is about 90% of your speed, kick is primarily to keep your body positioned properly.  In addition, I don't want to tire my legs any more than necessary in a tri (someone had mentioned this before)... so I tend to kick just enough for good position in the water.  The key things that my coaches in HS always focused on were relaxed arm out of the water, upon entry drop shoulder a bit, and extending the pull through to the thigh.  Here's not a bad description of it, but a coach will make a huge difference.  See if there's a master's program nearby that you could join.  

http://www.active.com/swimming/Articles/10-Elements-of-a-Perfect-Freestyle-Stroke-Part-1.htm

I was a sprinter in HS (23/50, 54/100 yards), so my big challenge has been finding a good pace that I can maintain for a long distance.  I should be better than I am, but I didn't swim for almost 30 years, so I'm just starting to get it back this Fall.  Still too slow. I've been experimenting with putting in a little backstroke and found that it doesn't slow down my pace, which surprised me.  The backstroke lets me relax and stretch out a bit and mixes up the muscles a little.  Probably not good advice generally, but I think it will lead to better times and less fatigue on longer swims (for me).

Another thing to practice now and then is how to sight while swimming without stopping and looking around.  Currently I change over to breastroke  (which was my specialty in HS), but I know that is sub-optimal for many reasons.  I'll work on freestyle sighting this off season.  You really don't want to swim farther than necessary.  Seems like might be something to gain from drafting too, though I've never been fortunate to find someone that would work well for me in a race.

Looks like this week will be a total blank on training.  Serious lake effect snow, roads are a disaster and no machines in the hotel.   Have fun dodging the resolutioners - I'm glad they're out there... whatever works!  Looking forward to getting back at it.

Stu

Thanks guys.  My 100 time is 1:52.  After reading some of your posts and doing a search through the rest of the threads, I have at least two problems.  My pull sucks, and I wasn't training to go fast.  I was doing almost all long swims at a slow pace, so there was no speed gains.  Tons of endurance gains, but no speed gains.  I think that I'm going to print some workouts from swimplan.com and really focus on the times that they have, and also do some pull drills.  In my search last night, that was the first time that I'd ever heard the term "reaching over the barrel".

I now have a baseline to go against.  I'll do another TT in a month to 6 weeks and see if there's any improvement.  I'll also incorporate some of the drills that have been mentioned above.  Thanks for the insights!

Scout

Good morning all.

Ah, South Bend weather, just as I remember it....   (If classes are in session at ND, the walking paths around the lakes might be plowed, in which case a nice brisk walk, or perhaps a run if they aren't too treacherous, could be possible.  Stay warm!)

Those are some nice swim times you had in HS, Stu.  I envy you, because from everything I've read, those who were once strong, even 30 years ago, can become strong again.

Scout: as you'v'e no doubt read by now, over the barrel' is a helpful analogy to keep your elbow high.  Here's a nicearticle about it.  (I've now posted two things from that site -- I should mention that the author of it is tjfry here on BT, a VERY fast swimmer!  I've had the good fortune of being helped out by him a couple of times.)

Lots of people also find the 'Mr. Swimsmooth' animation (and the info on that site) useful.

The fist drills that Brian mentioned are also good for improving the pull.  They make you realize that your whole forearm is involved in the pull (and to maximize what your forearm is accomplishing, you have to get that 'early vertical forearm', which is one reason to keep your elbows high).  And after a set of those, you will feel like you are FLYING through the water when you 'get your hands back'!

One thing about swimplan.com -- it maybe isn't so clear on their site, but when you put your times in, don't put your all-out sprint times in.  If you do, it will give you impossible workouts (like 10x100 at your all out sprint time on 5s rest).  More like your t-pace time is appropriate.  One common way to determine it is to warm up then do 3x300 on 30s rest as hard as you can while maintaining a consistent pace as much as possible for each of the 300s.  Your average per 100 for the 300s is your t-pace.

Have a great day everyone.  All this swimming talk has motivated me to get to the pool this morning!

Edited by Experior 2010-01-06 7:40 AM

Thanks Michael.  The Weather here in PA forced me indoors this morning.  I really don't like running on the short track at the Y, but there was a coating of snow on the ground this morning and I didn't want to risk an early run with all the busses and work trafic.

That article and animation just confirmed that I have some things to work on in the pool.  I think that I'm going to stop at the store later today and get a pull buoy and maybe some fist gloves for some of these drills.

Regarding swimplan, since I have never done an all out sprint in the pool, no worries about that being the time that I put in!  The 1:52 was the average 100 yard time from a 500 yard repeat that I did yesterday.

Scout

I'm not a terribly experienced swimmer, but I do have days where I feel like I'm being pushed through the water.  I have other days where it feels like I'm towing a boat.  I'd think that maybe you want to jump in the pool and just swim an easy 100-200 yards as a warm up, then start your workout.

On another subject, I just did my first Jorge bike workout.  This is going to be a fun program!

Scout

Phil, yes, you should warm up when you swim.  You might try something like 4x50 very easy before you swim.  If that doesn't work, either increase it a bit (but you don't want warm-up to become too large a percentage of your swimming), or you could try warming up by doing some other activity.

Having said that, yes, there will be easier and harder days, as Scout said, so I wouldn't read too much into the difference between the two workouts that you had recently.

ETA:  the 4x50 is geared towards your current volume.  If you were doing 2000m workouts I might say more like 4x100 warm-up.  The masters swimmers who swim at my pool do a 400-600m warm-up for their 2500-3000m workouts.

Edited by Experior 2010-01-06 5:10 PM

I was doing some research tonight on some shoulder pain I've had while swimming, and was reminded of this video about high elbow and early vertical forearm.  Production value is nil, but I find it to be a very helpful explanation.

That is a good explanation and liked the animated one as well.  Thanks Michael.  I'd also x2 the importance of prioritizing technique.  I watch the folks at the pool who have been coached and they have this nice smooth, relaxed stroke that is so effecient... they look like they're hardly working but they are really going through the water. 

Hope the shoulder gets better Michael... in addition to the swimming technique may want to check out your ergonomics while working, especially if your sitting at a computer alot.

Yes, I should be more careful about that.  (And 'alot' would be an understatement...)

Good morning everyone.  I hope we're all dealing well with the cold.  It looks like it's here for a while longer.

Have a great day.

Yes, I should be more careful about that.  (And 'alot' would be an understatement...)

Good morning everyone.  I hope we're all dealing well with the cold.  It looks like it's here for a while longer.

Have a great day.

Outstanding video!  Glad today is a swim day!  Looking forward to getting started with this high elbow open armpit thingy...

Scout

Hey Everybody....I've been on the DL the last week+ with some back problems and generally being under the weather but I'm out of the woods now. I should be able to get a run in tonight.

Signed up for a tri about 2 miles from my house yesterday but it's not until October(had a free race voucher for volunteering last year and didn't want it to expire.) Turned out I was the first person to register so the #1 on my race bib should be in direct contrast to my actual results!

Michael, where did you get those stretch cords? General sporting goods store? I've been looking around after reading your logs(sorry bout the thigh injury!) and haven't been able to find them.

Hey everyone.  Sorry about the weather out east.  Here in Oregon it has been a bit rainy, but have been able to get my runs in between showers.  Today appears to be a break from the nasty rain with temperatures in the upper 40's low
50's.  I guarentee it won't stay this way; I'll enjoy it while it lasts.  I suspect as usual we will get some cold spells drifting in from the North.  Had a great run last night one of my best paces yet.  Always seems I am tired at the start and don't get into a good pace until the second half or 2.5 miles in so I pushed it a little bit more last night to see if I can work that out and have a more consistent pace throughout, but still do a negative split.

I am off to swimming this evening and will concentrate on drills, incorporating drills focused on form rather than speed.  I need to do more of this during the off season which I have been, but I am anxious for the season to begin again and I see from other posts in other areas of BT that people are already beginning their training plans.

By the way the pic you see is Scooter our White Westhighlander (Westie).  He is a wonderful guy.

I got them at a Dick's Sporting Goods (chain sporting goods store).  I would imagine that local sporting good shops that carry any kind of weight lifting equipment would have them.  Barring that, you could always go online, like here.

Sammeg - That's very cool!  I had bib #1 at one of my tri's last year....It's hanging on my wall right now in my office!  Glad you're feeling better too...

Okay...just back from the pool....this whole high elbow thing is going to take some getting used to!  It was much more difficult than I thought it would be.  Concentrating on the high elbow in the pull really threw the timing off on my stroke.  It got more and more comfortable as the swim went on though...all in all it was a good first shot in my mind.  I was still swimming about the same pace, but considering that my stroke probably looked like a 4 year old in his second swim lesson, I think I'll take that as a good sign....

Scout

I did a little brick this afternoon and when I hopped off the bike (trainer) and went outside there was a whiff of warmth in the air.  It was into the lower 40s and felt like summer!  But it's supposed to get down into the teens this weekend, so I guess we're not out of the woods.

And, alas, the cold has already done its damage here.  I had a beautiful 8 foot tall cactus in my yard that now looks like this (yeah, all of the juvenile jokes have already occurred to me ):



Edited by Experior 2010-01-07 2:35 PM

You must have felt very deflated when you saw that.  (sorry this was the cleanest that I could come up with!)

Scout

It's astounding how much the cold can make some things shrivel up

The swimming discussion has been quite interesting. I am an incredibly slow swimmer. I haven't taken a lesson since I was a kid at the town lake. So, I really have no technique.

At this point, I think I just need to build my endurance back up, then I can look at taking some lessons, or joining a masters group.

If lessons are in your future at all, I'd suggest lessons now.  My swim today proved to me how hard it is to un-learn a bad habit.

Scout

That's a good point, that I hadn't thought of....

Stu - Please remind me...are we weighing in weekly for our weight loss challenge?

Scout

x2 on lessons now rather than later.  It doesn't necessarily take much -- just someone who is willing and able to give you the right advice at the right time.

Also, it can take time to find a good coach.  I searched for a coach for several months and finally found one willing to work with me.  (I tried masters, but it didn't work out.  YMMV.)  I wish I had found her months before.  I took a hiatus from coaching after IMKY, but we're starting back in a couple of weeks, and I'm looking forward to (but also dreading) what she has to say.

I think we are supposed to contact Stu on Saturdays about our progress.  Right Stu?