Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--CLOSED (Page 13)

• +5 points for no weight gain
• +1 point for 1 pound lost
• +22 point for 658 workout minutes
• Total: 28 points

Recovery day today!

Scott I.

Scott K -
I hope your 5k went well this morning!  I went to a coached swim session with the tri club this morning and I'm curious what you think of the workout we did:

Coached swim session w/tri club
4 x 50 - 25 any stroke, 25 free
2 x 100 - build on 25
3 x 100 - 1st 100 hard on 2nd 25, 2nd 100 hard on 3rd 25, 3rd 100 hard on 1st & 3rd 25's
2 x 100 - hypoxic (add 1 stroke to each breath every 25)
2 x 50 - superman catchup (catchup 1st 25, reg swim 2nd 25)
1 x 50 - simulated group start

I actually did better than I expected - some of it was tough for me (I'm not used to doing 100's) but I was able to keep up and finish all the sets.  The thing I really liked was that he explained to us why we were doing what we were doing and how each thing would help in an OWS situation. 
Janet

Nice weekend of workouts!

This is just me but I don't think group rides play any particularly significant role in preparing for a triathlon other than getting in the cycling miles. Now, with that said I enjoy a good group ride and being a part of a group certainly makes the miles pass quickly. I think riding exclusively in a group can actually be a little deceptive in establishing the effort level needed to do the cycling leg of a triathlon. Most of the time in the group you are shielded from the wind and can draft a bit.....this results in higher speeds at lower effort levels. Come race day the expectation may be that I can go "x" mph since I do that in my long group rides but the reality will be that it will take significantly more effort to ride the same speed I would maintain in the group. Another potential downside to group rides is that you don't get to dictate the pace. The group may go to slow or may turn into a hammerfest and you ride much harder than planned...making it harder to recover for your next workout.

With all that said I really enjoy small group rides. In season I will often ride on Saturday mornings with 2-4 team mates. Typically we are all training for the same event and will have similar training goals for the workout. Riding with a group requires focus on bike handling skills. Sometimes, as you point out, it is hard to get up and get moving. Knowing that you have a group that expects you to be there can be great motivation. I do think some longer solo rides can give you a good feel for what race day will be like.

Keep it up. You will be ready!      

Relatively happy with my race this morning.

5K - 24:53

• 1M - 8:12
• 2M - 8:02
• 3M - 7:54
• 0.1M - 0:45

I say relatively happy because the race wasn't me.  Yes, I ran it, but my coach was right there beside me every step of the way.  He set the pace, he provided the motivation, and when I questioned that I could do it, his was the voice that convinced me that I would succeed.  Still have a long way to go but I am starting to think maybe I can do this running thing after all.

Weight  lost 0.9 pounds

Workout - recovery week - 357.2 minutes

Good job Scott!

Scott - Excellent run today.  I ran today but I was a lot slower than you.

Since I started running I've had a goal of running 5K in under 30 minutes or 10K in under an hour but so far nothing close.

My weight loss was 2 lbs.

My workout time was a total of 8.58 hours = 514.8 minutes.  This next week is a recovery week for me.

Good Morning Gang!   It's been 10 days post-op and I'm off the pain meds and hobbling around on crutches.   I found my rolling office chair works great on all our hardwoods so I can quickly access things from my kitchen (the most important room in our house) to my home office. On the 4th day post op I had a nice pity party going but my hubby brought me flowers and sushi and I quickly realized how blessed I was.  I enjoyed reading the workouts you all did this weekend and you give me motivation to do this recovery right so I can join in the fun. Good job to those on the weight-loss train!

 RANDY - Thanks for throwing out the question on the app to track food intake, etc.   I hadn't thought about anything like that so I downloaded the MyFitnessPal and will be playing around with it. Cool stuff!

 TAMMY - I'm late in saying this but welcome to the group! I loved reading that you have local friends involved in this sport too. That sure is helpful in keeping us Gray folks moving.

 KRISTEN - Good job on your longest cycling ride! 28 miles is great at this point in your 70.3 training. Don't worry about the miles yet to come, just keep on adding bit by bit and before you know it, you'll be there.   I agree with RANDY on the group rides not being important. Although it's nice to be able to converse with people on long rides I haven't seen any real benefit to riding with others for training purposes.

 KARL - I'm sorry about the Docs orders of no running for another couple weeks. Do what he says, though, so you can put the stress fracture behind you forever.

 SCOTT K - I totally agree with STEVE'S comment on not buying you giving all the 5K credit to your coach. Unless he picked you up and carried you any of those miles it was your legs that did the work. GREAT JOB!

 GEORGE - I'm confident you'll reach your race goal times at some point if you continue to train smart. Impressive hours you put in this week.

Hi Janet,

It sounds like what you did was more of a clinic than a workout.  When i do workouts, I have specific "qualifications" that participants must meet and then the workout is tailored to that skill level - swim time, volume, etc.

Clinics on the other hand are generally open to all skill levels.  I have done clinics in the past and it is hard to set them up.  1,050 yards is barely a warm-up for some folks while it is a challenging session for others so trying to find that happy medium is often an elusive goal.  Because of that, when I setup a clinic I don't even try to offer a "workout."  Rather I want a clinic to be a learning opportunity.

With that in mind, looking at what you did, my personal opinion is that everyone should have a "safety" stroke - meaning an alternative stroke they can go to other than freestyle.  For example, you get slammed with a wave and take in a couple mouthfuls of water or you get poked in the face by your neighbor,- you should have something to go to while you recover from whatever happened.  I think however, that you should learn that alternative stroke "on your own time" and not during a workout.  My personal feeling is that a triathletes swim workout should be freestyle, and ONLY freestyle.  There are many that will argue that point.  I swam individual medley when I was a swimmer so I had to train in all four strokes.  Doing freestyle in a workout did not make my breaststroke any better, doing butterfly in a workout did not make my freestyle stronger.  The strokes are all different and contrary to the popular  argument, doing one stroke is simply not going to help another stroke.  Now, I could ALMOST justify the 4 x 50, 25 any stroke, 25 free if it were actually change stroke half way through each lap.  Then you would be gaining experience going to your safety stroke in the middle of a swim. otherwise, I am not sure I understand the point.

The second and third sets:

2 x 100 - build on 25
3 x 100 - 1st 100 hard on 2nd 25, 2nd 100 hard on 3rd 25, 3rd 100 hard on 1st & 3rd 25's

I don't know exactly what the point was, I do know it is helpful to be able to immediately alter your pace in an OWS, so I assume these sets had something to do with that.  If that wasn't the point, well, OK.

The final set, 1 x 50, simulated group start is something that not near enough triathletes attempt to do.  There simply is no way to successfully recreate the chaos that is a group start.  Anything you can do to put yourself in the water with hundreds of your closest friends will go a long ways towards making you more comfortable at the start of a triathlon.  This is one of those things that you can't do to much of.  I am a big guy, over six foot tall.  I have probably done well over a hundred mass starts of one type or another over the years and I still get butterflies when I line up shoulder to shoulder with all my buddies for a start.  You can't do this too much!

That brings me to the 4th and 5th sets.  Notice how I saved the best for last.   I have major problems with both of these sets.

Hypoxic breathing is not only pointless, it is also dangerous and has caused more than a few fatalities.  Many coaches use hypoxic (more accurately the term is anoxic) breathing sets in an effort to simulate high-altitude training by breathing less at low-altitude..  When living/training at altitude, your body adapts by creating more hemoglobin, your oxygen transport.  The theory is that breathing less will simulate that adaptation.  NOTHING could be further from the truth.  In reality, what happens when you are doing hypoxic training is that you are breathing less frequently which simply raises the level of carbon dioxide in your bloodstream making your desire to breathe stronger.  On top of that, as we age, our lung capacity is one of the first things to decline so breathing every 7th stroke for an 18-year old may be the equivalent of breathing every 3rd stroke for a 50-year old.  That is a recipe for disaster, especially for a coach that has not experienced the effects of aging and has no understanding of the potential physical implications..  I believe that hypoxic sets do not have a place in any workout, EVER.  Just my humble opinion!

Now, on to the superman catchup thing.  I believe that drills should be used sparingly at best.  I think they should NEVER be used or prescribed en mass for a group of people.  When you do that, I guarantee there will be people within the group that will be negatively impacted by the drill.  If a coach observes an athlete and then says, "Athlete, you have XYZ stroke deficiency that this drill will help correct," that is one thing, to have an entire team or group do a drill is a dis-service to the group.  The catch-up drill is an excellent case in point.  The catch-up drill is used to help develop glide at the front of the stroke.  The problem is, the value of having glide in your stroke becomes debatable in open water and/or rough water.  In rough water you need to maintain your momentum and having a "dead spot" brought on by too much glide becomes a real problem.  Having proper glide is a function of proper stroke mechanics and when everything else is correct, you don't need a drill to learn proper glide.  When you introduce the drill to swimmers, over time they tend to end up with too much glide in their stroke.  Now apply that to a group of people in a clinic.  You are likely going to have one or two that could benefit from the drill.  You will also have a few people that already have too much glide and the drill will simply make an existing problem worse.  To sum it up, I have a problem with the superman catchup thing on two levels, one I don't think drills should EVER be used en mass during a workout, and two, I rarely think the catch-up drill is needed.

Other than that, I think that any time in the water is good time.  The more you can do to prepare yourself for an open water swim, the better.

Scott - thanks for your input - I appreciate it.  The coach who was there is USAT certified and has a lot of satisfied clients but he's a former skier and ski coach, not a swimmer so I wanted your opinion since you have a swimming background.

You're right - clinic is probably a better word for what we did than workout (although it was a pretty good workout for me considering my lack of swimming lately).  Just to clarify a little bit - the purpose of the first set (4x50) was to practice your "safety" stroke although I see your point in it not really being beneficial if you don't change in the middle of the lane.  Changing at the end of the pool doesn't really help with being able to switch in the middle of an OWS.  The OWS's that I've done I've had this issue.  I try to sight or just get an extra breath and have a hard time getting back into a "normal" freestyle stroke.  

The 2nd & 3rd sets were to practice adjusting pace during the swim. 

The 4th set (hypoxic set) was to push us past our comfort zone in regards to breathing.  He said the point was to be able to take an extra stroke or two before taking a breath if needed, like if you're hit by a wave or someone next to you is trying to splash all the water out of the lake.  It's to give you the confidence that you can take those extra strokes if needed.  He also said we wouldn't like those sets (he was right, I didn't). 

The 5th set (superman catchup) was not about gliding as much as it was about not getting kicked in the face during a race.  Not sure I agree with that - unless you keep your arms out in front of you the whole time, you're still vulnerable to being kicked whenever you take a stroke so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. 

We have a different coach doing a clinic next Sunday and I'm curious to see what the differences will be.  Thanks again for your input!
Janet

Janet,

I am not making any judgement on the coach you had for the clinic this past weekend when I say this, so please don't take it that way.  I don't know the individual and one 45 minute session is not near enough to form an accurate opinion of his/her abilities.  That said, a USAT certification doesn't mean anything except the person passed a test.  It doesn't necessarily mean they are a good swimming coach, cycling coach, running coach , or triathlon coach.  Yes, the certification means they should have some base level of training, but again, that doesn't necessarily mean they truly understand the things they learned.  I have met USAT certified coaches that I wouldn't let plan a workout for my dog, let alone an athlete.  When I first meet someone that is a certified coach, my position is, that's nice, don't tell me how good you are, show me.  Not trying to make you question certified coaches, rather just encouraging a healthy does of skepticism until you get to know them.

This is kind of like prescribing cough syrup for pneumonia - treating the symptom instead of curing the problem.  In this case, you have made a great argument for bi-lateral breathing.  If there are waves coming from your right and you can only breathe to your right, guess what is going to happen?  You're going to get a face full of water at some point.  If you have a swimmer on your left creating a huge amount of splash and you can only breathe to your left, guess what is going to happen?  You're going to get a face full of water at some point.  Your clinic was advocating holding your breath for a couple strokes to get past the problem.  That creates a bit of a dilemma however because during a triathlon swim it is problematic to limit your oxygen supply.  The last thing you want is to be anaerobic.  By definition, anaerobic means "without oxygen."  If you are pacing properly, you would be swimming at or near threshold and right on the edge of becoming anaerobic.  Skipping a breath or two could easily put you into acidosis and begin a downward spiral from which it will be difficult to recovery.  Why anyone would advocate limiting your oxygen supply during a race when there are alternatives is beyond me.  Oxygen is your friend, you quite literally cannot get to much.  Instead of holding your breath, wouldn't it be better to be able to breathe to either side and breathe to the side that isn't going to give you a face full of water?  You get oxygen, you stay aerobic, you go fast and you treat the problem instead of throwing cough syrup at pneumonia.  Sounds like a win-win to me.

Just my two cents.

Hi Jo,

Sorry I took so long to get back to you!

I'm not Missing In Action. I've been flying my butt off. Like a couple of others I've been trying my best to stay caught up with the threads, but I just haven't had time to post anything. Since the first of the month I've been Hong Kong to Hanoi, Vietnam, Shanghai, China to Dubai, UAE to Cebu, Philippines, Manila, Philippines and to Haneda, Japan. I'm currently sitting in Anchorage, Alaska and heading to Miami, FLA in about 10 hours. Whew! After I get back to Hong Kong I'm on vacation but have to fly to Canada as my mum is not well. At 82 pneumonia is always a worry.

I'll say this! The posts on here are somewhat intimidating. As a newbie just starting out I definitely have a lot to learn. I've just been getting into some training, but the hardest part I have is when to train. Half the time I'm so far off my body clock I don't know whether to go to bed, eat or just go back to work. Trying to schedule training is extremely difficult. I would say that's my number 1 problem. That, and what to pack. :D

Right, Protein:

I've been plant based now for about 4 years. I did a nutrition course online through Cornell University after reading "The China Study" and a couple of other books on the subject and it works for me.

"To each their own" I say to everyone. I don't go out hugging cows, and I do wear leather shoes. Vegan carries such a negative connotation that I say Plant Powered.

Protein Sources:

Protein:

That's probably the easiest way to say it.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,

Dave B

Karl,

Great post.

I agree with everything. The reason I don't eat salmon is because of the mercury content. (Netflix movie: End of the Line). The only reason I don't eat eggs is because I'm sticking to plant power. Again, it's entirely my own personal preference.

I look forward to discussing more on your ideas on both training and nutrition.

Cheers,

Dangerus

PS. I got the nickname Dangerus because I'm mostly a Danger to myself. I used to Downhill Mountain Bike as well as Double Black Diamond skiing, but both those efforts ended in tears, the worst one being a Grade 4 shoulder dislocation which sidelined me for 6 months. The funniest being heli-lifted off a hill with a broken leg.

Hi Deb,

Thanks huge amounts for pointing out the LT test on the web site. I used The Sufferfest video "Rubber Glove" to get my baseline in cycling but I hadn't found anything practical for running.

Cheers,

Dave B