The "No Kids Club" (Page 15)

I'm going to wade in here: I'm 35, no kids, and quite happy - never intended to have any, it was just never on my radar, and I've never regretted that decision. I have 2 nieces that I absolutely adore, and spending time with them just reinforces that I don't feel I carry the "mom gene" (don't get me wrong I love them, but spending a day with them is enough - I enjoy coming home to my clean quiet empty house!). I'm too selfish to be a mom, I believe.
My boyfriend has 2 older kids from a previous relationship and he doesn't want any more, so all is well.

To those that have kids - thank you for making that committment and (hopefully) raising productive contributing members of society. The only time I'd ever question YOUR decision to become parents is if you neglect or abuse your child.

That said - anyone else have any experience with being treated differently or unfairly because we don't have kids?

Example: One of my co-workers routinely gets to go home early (we're shift-workers) because she has kids and has to get up with them in the morning. Well I don't have kids but also have to get up in the morning, to swim/bike/run/go to the dentist/whatever. She also gets her pick of shifts for the exact same reason. Just because she's procreated doesn't mean she has more rights than I do. This does not make her life more important than mine.

(Background: She is married to a Mon-Fri worker. Her kids are school-age. And this exception is accepted as fair practice by management, who don't see it being an issue because "well, she has kids, she has to go home early...".)

Because like it or not society as a whole, knowing what is good for itself, places more value on taking care of children than it does on triathlon.  A society that does not value children ceases to have them and ceases to exist, plain and simple.  you may not like it but that is the case everywhere.

My point was not that I have to get up to pursue a hobby - my point was that why should someone with children be granted special privileges over someone who does not have children - based solely on the merit that they've given birth?
If she can't handle working shifts and being a mother, than she should find a dayjob (IMHO).

You are telling me my life IS less important, because I do not have children.

Sorry I was being a bit facetious.  Society values having and taking care of children because that insures continuity of existance for that society.  To societies goal of propagating itself yes your life is less important than those who have children.  Note the first few words of that sentence please before you get offended and think about what societies ultimate goal is.  That goal is not your happiness or the happiness of any given individual, it is the propagation of the society itself.  The way society sees it you do not participate in a meaningful way in that goal if you do not at the very least replace yourself.

This does not sit well with me. At all. No, I've never given birth but I have 4 children in my life, 4 children who's lives I am very involved in: 2 nieces and 2 step-children. What would be the difference if my sister had her 2, but my boyfriend had one with his ex and one with me? There'd still be 4 kids and still the same amount of adults raising them - but my life would be of more value?

I realize you're just proving a point and it's not personal - I just do not understand this line of thinking.

Yes of course that is the only reason a couple might have both parents working. 

I did not make any judgement as to the right or wrong of the reasoning I simply stated what the reasoning is.

This doesn't happen much where I work, but it does bother me as well.  Having a child is a choice, and making that choice shouldn't grant someone special privledges at work or in society.  I realize taking care of a child is a vitally important responsibility, but that's the result of their choice.  You choose to spend your time with a hobby.  Likewise, they've made a choice to have kids, which basically is their hobby.  If a person gets time off for their kids, you should get time off for your hobby.  Otherwise it's discrimination. 

The line of thinking is pure numbers you must have as many children in each generation as you have people in the previous generation for the society to simply hold ground.  Fewer children in each generation leads to a shrinking society that can lead  to extinction.  That is the reason for the cultural bias towards those who have children.  Regardless how wonderful and ancillary support system you are without those who actually have the children the population decreases.  Now where did I say that those who are childless but supply ancillary support have no value to the societal bias but the value is not as great, it simply is not.

I haven't come across the idea that our energy gains knowledge. Is this something you read? Or your own original idea?

Of course, I've encountered and don't disagree with the idea that our mass never perishes, it is reborn in other forms - our remains nourish the earth (when properly disposed), a seed or plant is nourished from that earth, the cycle continues. That kind of thing.  But just as a matter of energy returning to ether and waiting to reborn, this is new to me.

Care to share?

I am going to be honest and say that I have judged people with large families before.  Usually not if the kids are well behaved and well supervised, but mainly when, for example, I have a tenant in a 2 bedroom apartment (I am a property manager) that just had her 5th kid (all the kids are under 9, and she is 24)...The origin of the father is debatable, as in, she isn't sure who the father is of the new child.  Not counting this one, there are 3 fathers for the other 4.  She is on welfare and Sec. 8 housing, has no mental or physical disabilities, doesn't work, does drugs...I question her motives or lack of planning in having another kid.  Oh and by the way, her kids have destroyed several things on property, have walked into other peoples homes without knocking...and then asked for food because they have not been fed....I eventually called child services, who gave her a warning...she then moved to a 4 bedroom apartment in an area of town riddled with gun fights and drug deals.  Her kids are well on their way to being just like her.  Hopefully, they can see that there is another way to live and pull themselves out, and hopefully social services will help her get on the right track.  I do judge her.  Maybe thats wrong, but I don't believe that she should ever have reproduced in the first place.

This is not an abstract story, this really happen to me.  And there were two other families in similar situations.   But then there is another family, about to have their 3rd child, and I am more than happy for them to have 5 more.  They are smart and well behaved.  I still don't want to be around them for extended periods of time, but I do not judge the mother for having them.  

I am sorry that you get such flack from your family and others...its hard.  I have been asked 3 times since the 20th, if I am ever going to have kids / if I ever wanted kids...and when I say no, I have gotten some pretty strong statements, just like the others have said here.  But then being gay, I get the, "It's a shame your not straight" stuff all the time.  So sort of use to it by now.  

Very, very interesting thread here.  I've learned a lot, actually.

I am in the childless by choice camp and at 43 have come across an interesting expereince that no one has mentioned yet.  Attitudes towards reproduction varies by location.  Sometimes drastically.

Part of our decision to move here to the Portland area was driven by our choice to not have children.  At our last place of residence, we were outcasts.  People didn't 'get' us.  Not only were we questioned as to why we didn't have kids yet, but we were often excluded from social events and work events.  The same attitude has not reared it's ugly head here.  The fact that I now have many friends my age and younger that have chosen to not have kids has made a drastic difference in our general happiness.  No one is judging us any longer and it feels wonderful.

I honestly didn't mind being questioned about our decision, I just hated being judged/excluded and generally outcast because of it.

Oh, and FWIW - I know two people who used the BCP exactly as it was prescribed but still got pregnant.  And when I was on Accutane as a married adult, I had to sign a form that stated that I would use two forms of birth control because it causes such serious birth defects.  TWO.  One is not good enough.

So, just to add a new question to the mix.  I was talking to a buddy of mine, who does not LIKE kids at all.  PERIOD!  and when he lived in Wisconsin, they had adult only apartment complexes.  I remember about 20 years ago, when the law changed, at least in California, and it became discriminatory to have adult only complexes...it is either Senior living or Family.  That puts my buddy in a tough situation, he lives in my complex, and I cannot discriminate against families, (I cannot even advertise using the phrase, "quiet complex", because fair housing has determined that discriminates against families, since, I guess, they figure children are noisy)...so where does his right come in to live someplace free of kids.  Last weekend, there were kids playing in the common area outside his window...kids are a bit noisy.. I understand why the law is there, but, I think it actually discriminates against those of us who don't want to be around kids.  I have, on several occasions, told kids that were screaming, just for the sake of yelling to be quiet...but this was just normal play time.  

I guess my question is, what are his rights?  There is no place in San Jose, where he can be guaranteed to be completely kid free...He understands that kids are our future, but he prefers to not be around them at all.  

I just had to post this link.  Just watch from 0:45 to 1:33...it fits this conversation perfectly!  Different era...different species...same conflict!  

0:45 to 1:33

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0gjNRpr8ao&playnext=1&list=PLC61531D07D22CE44

Not only should there be 'no kids' housing I think there should be 'no kids' seating in restaurants.

As a conscientious parent I know kids are loud and can be annoying. If I was wanting a quiet evening out I wouldn't want to be seated next to toddlers. I've been saying this for years they should change the 'smoking section' to 'adults only section'. This way parents with kids aren't as worried about their kids disrupting others and I could have a quiet date with my husband. When we go out we don't want to hear other kids whining.

Not sure what the rules/laws are but I know in senior communities they get away with it. You have to be XX age and no kids. If grandchildren come to visit the longest they can stay is X amount of days. My ILs looked at a place in Georgetown, TX and I understand Sun City in both AZ and FL are the same.

Right to live in an area without kids - seriously?  Do people really think that's a right?  Tell your buddy to buy a house with acreage and do whatever the hell he wants.

Amen Sistah!

Way to misinterpret what I said.

Maybe next time I should just go for the defensive emotional response instead of an anthropological discussion on the cultural bias towards having children.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this thread started out as a "who does not have kids" thread and ended up where we are now.  This was not meant to be an "Anthropological discussion on the cultural bias towards having children".  To refresh memories:

So I've been wondering for a while how many people here on BT do not have kids and are not planning on having them.  After the last 'TAN' it seemed like an appropriate time to ask the question....So, do you have kids?  And I'm just curios as well to see how many ppl made the conscious choice to not have them.

bootygirl is not the only person who has read this thread and groked the same emotional response.  I too have perceived some posts here as "I am valued less in society" because I have chosen not to have children.  Those of us who choose not to have children do not go into the Has Kids thread and innocently or not, stir up trouble...or in this case a "defensive emotional response".