Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--CLOSED (Page 15)

Hey Scott,

Yes, I am doing the Traditional Base - Mid Volume plan.  It calls for four workouts/week so I am doing 3 on the trainer and then riding outdoors for the fourth one.  In the past, I would go out and ride long rides and occasionally do intervals, ride some hills, or follow a Sufferfest video, but I never have had the structure that TR provides.  Even before I parted ways with my cycling coach, I didn't have near the structure or direction that TR provides so looking forward to some rapid improvement.

I started out with an 8-minute FTP test which raised a question that I will post separately.

I seem to recall we had a discussion along these lines once before.  One of the hardest things to remember and certainly one of the hardest things to do is to have proper rest.  Many very respected coaches feel that rest and recovery are at least as important as the actual training stimulus.  Probably the next hardest thing, and along the same lines, is to not build to rapidly.  We all fall in to the trap of thinking, "If 10 hours was good this week, how much better will 15 hours be next week?"  The problem with that type of thinking is that a) it ignores the fact that the body has to absorb and adapt to the current training stimulus, and b) the body has to recover.  We may be able to get away with a one-time rapid increase in volume from one week to the next.  However when you rapidly increase volume week-over-week across a long period of time, you run the risk of becoming over-trained, burnt out, or worse - injured. 

I posted this once before but I think it is useful enough to post it again. 

I use a formula that keeps my volume build in line. I give 1 point for each 100 yards swimming, 1 point for each mile on the bike, and 1 point for each 1/4 mile running. 100 yards swimming = 1 mile cycling = 1/4 mile running. I then total up all the points for the current week. Next week, my training can't go beyond 110-115% of the current week points.  By following that general guideline, you won't exceed a fairly conservative build and won't have to worry about over-doing it.

If I am going to make a significant change in my training plan, I try to do it in the week following a recovery week.  For example, I just started with TR which is likely going to result in a considerable difference in my cycling volume.  By doing it coming off of a recovery week, it will be easier on my body to absorb the difference.

From my experience, for what it's worth, if you are beginning to think that you have ramped up to fast, you probably have.

A couple thoughts on the swimming -

First, I have always been a proponent of bi-lateral breathing in training.  Nothing will encourage symmetry in your stroke better than bi-lateral breathing.  That is a simple fact that has been true since people first put their faces in the water and began doing front crawl.  Whenever I work with a swimmer that has uneven body rotation, the first thing I do is to have them swim the next workout breathing to their off-side and then breathe bi-laterally thereafter.  Within a couple of workouts, the body rotation is generally back to even and they are swimming straight lines.  In a race, I am an advocate of breathing every second stroke (breathing to the same side).  You need every bit of oxygen you can get and in a race, staying aerobic is more important that breathing bi-laterally.  However, in a race, the ability to breathe to either side can quite literally "save-the-day" if you find yourself in rough water, have neighbors that are trying to splash all the water out of the ocean into your face, have sun issues, etc.  Having the ability to breathe bi-laterally is one of the most important skills you can have for any number of reasons.

Next, the "rub your thumb across your hip" idea is two-fold, to help visualize body rotation but also to get your hand down to the proper release position.  Sorry if it has created confusion.  A common problem among age-group triathletes is they don't complete their stroke by getting the hand to full extension at the end of the pull/push phase.  Thinking about thumb across hip helps to achieve that proper release point.  I have always said the elbow should be first out of the water.  Then the elbow immediately establishes a high-elbow position through recovery.  Concentrating on elbow our of the water first and establishing a high-elbow recovery should help you eliminate the little flip thing you are doing.  I have seen that before and it is generally a result of trying to swim to fast.  It is similar to the bounce you get in the saddle when you try to increase your cadence too high.  You are in such a hurry to begin your recovery you "forget" to stop pushing.  When your hand comes out of the water and there is no longer resistance, your hand "flips" back in an unnatural way.  Just remember at the end of your stroke, you need to stop pushing and start recovering.

As to backstroke.  When I was swimming, I swam breaststroke, individual medley and freestyle events.  I was blessed to have swam at what some might say was an elite level.  Because of the individual medley, I had to train in all four strokes.  Sadly the time I spent swimming backstroke did nothing to improve my freestyle.  Did swimming backstroke help with my overall endurance?  Yes.  Did swimming backstroke help with my overall strength?  Yes.  However backstroke did NOTHING to help my freestyle technique.  It doesn't happen that way, and anyone who says it does is simply misinformed and likely didn't speak swimming as their first athletic language.  Just to kind of cement that point - if swimming backstroke was going to help your freestyle, then the reverse would also be true - swimming freestyle would help your backstroke.  Yet, by your own admission, you're not very good at backstroke.  If you want to get better at freestyle, you need to swim freestyle.  For the record, I think everyone needs to have a safety stroke - a stroke they can go to other than freestyle that they can use in an emergency situation, but it isn't going to help your freestyle.

Open turns - this is one of those debates that will likely never die.  I am a fan of flip turns for a couple reasons.  The most important one is that using flip turns better simulates an open water swim in training.  When you open turn, you get that big breath as you grab hold of the wall and change direction.  You don't get that with a flip turn and you don't get that in the open water.  Next, flip turns just provide a smoother overall swim.  Go to a swim meet and watch how many swimmers use flip turns and then go to the YMCA and watch how many triathletes use open turns.  Swimmers use flip turns, it is as simple as that.  Does it make that big a difference?  Probably not, but if you want to improve your swim, having the ability to flip turn will help.

This is another discussion we have had in the past - "On my masters team, I'm normally the slowest person in the slow lane. Today I was actually catching up to one of my lane-mates."  This is one of the biggest problems associated with training with a swim team, masters or otherwise.  As a triathlete, your concern should not be with overall peak speed, rather it should be with threshold speed.  There is a difference.  Overall peak speed is anaerobic whereas threshold speed is aerobic.  You cannot maintain your overall peak speed for the distance of even a sprint triathlon swim (750m), let alone a longer triathlon swim. Michael Phelps couldn't do it at the height of his swimming career, I couldn't do it at the height of my swimming career, and you can't do it now.  Sorry to burst your bubble.  When you are training with a swim team, it is hard not to want to get ahead of your lane mates.  It is natural and many of us have a fairly high competitive drive or else we wouldn't be triathletes doing this craziness to ourselves.  The problem is that when you are training with a swim team, you are likely spending a great deal of your time training anaerobically because of the competitive drive and because that is what you do at swim team workouts.  Training anaerobically goes to raising your peak speed but does very little towards increasing your threshold speed.  You raise your threshold speed by training at or slightly below threshold pace through the majority of the season then adding speed work a few weeks out from your 'A' race.  When you train with a swim team, you are following someone else's plan, not your plan.  I have  a saying, "Very few fast swimmers are fast triathletes, but most fast triathletes are fast swimmers."  The answer to that seeming riddle lies in how you define fast.  For a swimmer, fast is peak speed.  For a triathlete, fast is threshold speed.  You can be a fast swimmer, or you can be a fast triathlete, you can't be both.  You mentioned that you feel like you have plateaued in your swimming.  While plateaus happen, I submit that you may have plateaued because you are training to someone else's big picture rather than to your own big picture as much as anything else.

Scott, I don't want to un-necessarily rain on your parade.  That said, sometimes it is helpful to step back and take the "high altitude" view of your training.  Where you are, where you are planning to go, and how you are planning to get there.  With that renewed perspective, hopefully you can judge how effectively what you are doing is getting you to your goal and whether or not some changes are in order.

Hey Randy,

I have a question for you.  Well, actually for you and anyone else that has trained with power but specifically for you as I suspect you have been using power the longest.

I signed up for Trainer Road a few days ago.  The first thing I did was the 8-minute FTP test.  I last did a 20-minute FTP test in the field about three weeks ago.  I was using power numbers from my Vectors in both cases so I had consistent power numbers.  My 8-minute FTP was 47 watts higher than my three week old 20-minute FTP test.  I think a 47 watt improvement over three weeks is highly unlikely.  I have done a number of 20-minute tests with several of them "administered" by a coach so I am fairly confident they were done properly.

Any ideas on why  the large disparity?

Dave,

That sounds like a blast and it even has the motivation of breakfast at the end!

I don't have anything near as exciting planned, a 90-minute ride and a 3-mile run - except the wind is blowing like 50 MPH outside right now so not sure how that is going to work in to my plans.  Might be doing some indoor stuff today.

I got as far as 4:25.09 for a mile when I stopped reading.  My gosh, I have to be on my bike to even think about a pace like that!

Have fun!

Thanks for asking, SCOTT K.  I'm stuck wearing a boot for 4 weeks post op with nothing physical except moving my toes back and forth.  Based on conversation with Doc on Thursday I'll probably be able to ditch the boot and get in the pool after I see him again on Feb 10th.  Not sure I'll be relegated to just swimming then but I'll next be able to add  biking (maybe around the 8 week point) and lastly running about 12 weeks post op.  That happens to be mid-April just as tax season ends.    Right now my foot is still quite swollen and bruised but the pain's minimal so I won't complain.   I was able to drive and walk without crutches yesterday so I'm moving in the right direction.  

DEB - Those times listed in the article are so astounding.  Hope you meet your 8:00 goal and enjoy the experience.  I'll be anxious to hear how you did.  You go girl!!  I'd love to be there to cheer you on and see those fast old people in action.

DAVE - It sounds like your tri club coordinator really puts a lot of effort into your mini indoor tri.  I'm impressed.  I'm sure it will be a lot of fun no matter what kind of finish time you have.   You can't go wrong with getting breakfast.    Good luck!

Dave-well done! I think the main reason I do triathlons is to enjoy the post race food and beverages!

Longish run done this morning. Heading over for a swim in a bit.....schedule calls for 2500 yards but I might shorten that a bit if the run is taking its' toll on swim quality.  

Originally posted by DJP_19 Finished the first indoor tri this morning and it was a lot of fun. A very short "course" for the first monthly event, since many of the club members are new to tri's. It was roughly a 45 minute workout with transitions. I was happy with my 2 mile treadmill run (15:55), since I have not pushed my runs much due to a calf injury last summer. Training aside, the highlight of the morning was clearly the post race breakfast of waffles with blueberry syrup, etc. Its a beautiful day with fresh snow on the ground here, so this afternoon's fun will be some snowshoeing. My totals for the weekly challenge are: 404 workout minutes 13.4 points 2 lb weight loss 2 points no gain bonus 5 points Total: 20.4 points Deb, Looking forward to hearing about your race. Wow, what a field of runners. Dave

Dave, congrats on the indoor tri.  One of our local fitness centers does indoor tri's twice a month from Nov thru Mar (but without the breakfast afterwards).  I haven't done any yet but have been considering it.

I went down to one of my favorite trails yesterday to get in a run - weather was great, low-50's and sunny - and ended up doing an unintentional mud run instead.  I'm not sure where all the water came from (ground thawing out maybe?) but it was quite a challenge.  There were some spots that were decent for running, but others were shoe-sucking mud where it's just impossible to actually run - especially if you didn't want to end up sliding down a hill.  So it was more of a hike than a run but at least I got some hill work in. 

Today was another swim clinic with the tri club.  I liked this one better than last weeks.  They had 3 coaches on deck watching us swim - the focus of the clinic was stroke analysis.  They watched us for a while and then 2 of them got in and swam with us.  Nick is a former collegiate swimmer and competed in the 2008 Olympic trials so it was nice to have someone with that kind of swimming background in the water with us.  They worked with us as a group and then individually.  They gave me a couple of things to work on - said my head position is good and my general stroke is good (I don't cross-over), but I don't always extend my right arm enough (usually happens when I breathe to the left) and I need to work on my rotation - I'm too flat in the water.  So I have some things to concentrate on during my swim workouts. 

I'm off to take a short nap and then a trainer ride this afternoon.  Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend!
Janet

• +5 points for no weight gain
• +2 point for 2 pound lost
• +26.3 point for 788 workout minutes
• Total: 33.3 points

Recovery day today! I'm planning to take it a little easier next week!

Scott I.

Hey Stu,

Answering the question about the build / rest cycle ratio is a harder question to answer than you might think.  Then if you expand the original question and add intensity during a recovery week and I suspect you have a question worthy of a clinic by some of the best known triathlon coaches out there.  So, all I can do is offer my humble opinion and share how I do it.

I guess to fully understand recovery we should talk a bit about periodization in training.  Periodization grew from the idea that the body responds to training stress in three distinct stages; a) the alarm stage - the initial shock of the training stimulus on the body, b) the resistance stage - the adaptation of the body to the training stimulus, and c) the exhaustion stage - in which the body lags behind adaptation and there is a reduction in body function.  The goal of periodization is to keep the body in the resistance stage without every entering the exhaustion stage.

A proper periodization schedule is somewhat like a choreographed dance that takes the athlete right to the edge of exhaustion and then artfully backs off and allows full adaptation to the training stresses to take effect.  OK, admittedly, that is a very basic explanation but one that is sufficient to the discussion.

Once you understand what is taking place during a recovery week, it is easier to define what a recovery week should look like.  My idea is that workouts during a recovery week are less about the workout's themselves and more about mental and physical recovery.  The actual workouts are really my last priority.  The scheduled volume and/or intensity is there merely to maintain fitness and technique.  During a recovery week I go out of my way to get sufficient sleep, work on technique drills, take care of any nagging aches and pains, and relieve the mental stress of training every day.  As to volume reduction?  That is going to vary from cycle to cycle and is going to be determined by my overall volume/intensity at the time and more importantly, how I feel at the time.  As a general guide I drop volume by from 10-40% and then coming out of recovery I increase by whatever I dropped plus 5-10%.  I always have some intensity in EVERY workout but back that off during recovery weeks as a result of the reduced volume.  I have one day every week (Sunday) that is a rest day.  I don't workout on Sundays although I will do active recovery activities such as take a walk with my wife, go for a bike ride with my wife, walk the mall with my wife, etc.  That goes a LONG ways towards keeping peace in my house with my training schedule and it also goes a long ways towards keeping me from over-training.  I also take my pulse every morning before my feet hit the ground.  If my daily pulse is 10 BPM higher than normal, I take the day off.  If it is 6 BPM above normal, then all workouts are cut by 50-60% and intensity kept in zone 2 or below.  If my morning pulse is 4 BPM above normal, all workouts are cut by 30-50% and intensity is zone 3 or below.  I look at what my daily pulse is doing to determine how much to cut back during recovery weeks.

One final thing about recovery weeks, before we can consider recovery weeks, we have to assume the athlete is training hard enough to induce fatigue, 'hard enough' being defined as volume, intensity, or a combination of both.  Because we are age-group athletes and balancing the demands and responsibilities of life, work, and triathlon, training at that level is not always an automatic.  Joe Friel once said, "If you never feel tired then you don't need recovery weeks."  For those of you that haven't heard of Joe Friel, he is arguably the best known, most highly respected coach in the triathlon community.

I think we all agree that running is much harder on the body than swimming and I suppose it is arguable where cycling falls in to the stress continuum.  I prefer using the points system because it attempts to quantify the actual stress imposed by the different activities and I suppose one could take the various points and adjust them depending upon their abilities in each of the disciplines.  So I am not sure that time adequately compares although, if an athlete has used time as their guide and is able to listen to their body, then time is probably as effective as anything else.  Whether it is a points system, time or volume, I think the important thing is to have some "checks-and-balances" method to keep build rate from becoming excessive.

Woot, Woot, DEB!  Ditto what SCOTT I said!

Scott,

It would be so much easier if we were pro-triathletes and got paid to train wouldn't it?

I understand having to try to balance a schedule and I applaud the effort to find a workable solution.   On the one hand, joining the masters team helps you meet your training goals from a volume and workouts per week perspective.  On the other, you may not be getting the optimal workouts for your time investment.  My suggestion would be to talk to the coach.  It sounds as though she is open to working with the triathletes and allowing some latitude in what you actually do in the pool.  Explain that you feel you need more training at or just below threshold and go from there.  I wouldn't approach it so much as a negotiation as a "getting on the same page."  At the end of the day, you and your coach share a common goal, namely for you to improve.  Most coaches I have ever worked with are open to finding a way to achieve that common goal.   If you can do even a couple of the workouts each week as threshold workouts instead of anaerobic workouts, you will be ahead of the game.  The important thing is the more your workouts reflect YOUR plan instead of someone else's plan, the better off you will be.

Rod,

I was about to make a comment about "this time of year," and then I remembered that you are in the southern hemisphere and our 'this time of year' and your 'this time of year' are completely opposite from each other.

Your knee injury takes precedence over anything else.  If you haven't sought out a doctors opinion then I submit that you should.  If you have talked to a doctor, then I suggest you follow his/her directions which you probably aren't as a doctor likely wouldn't recommend doing enough exercise to cause pain.

Yeah, talking to a doctor might sit you down for a bit.  But not talking to a doctor and ignoring an injury could result in further injury and a season off or worse.

Look on the bright side. If you have to cut back your running you can spend more time swimming and turn a weakness into a strength!

Dave - Nice race.  It sounds like a lot of fun.  Locally, through the winter we have a series "Splash and Dash"-  just a short swim (750m) and run (5K).  They're also fun but they only give out a big cookie at the finish.

Tom - Where were you scuba diving?  Don't underestimate the power of a rest week.

Deb - Very nice run.  Inspires to me want to run faster as well.

Rod - I'd like to say that Scott is likely right about seeing a Doctor.  When I first started running I very quickly injured my right knee and had to stop for 6 weeks but if I had kept running I would have made it worse.  

Yesterday, I was talking to a local Pro Triathlete (Jeff Symonds) and he said he was leaving today for Melbourne to race in the Challenge Melbourne race.  If you are unable to race you could consider volunteering at the Challenge Melbourne race.  It's a lot of fun and very inspirational.  I volunteer at several events a year.  Last year at our local Challenge I worked at several jobs in the transition area starting at 6:30am on race day and then moved over to the finish line and was there until midnight catching finishers at the finish line.  Sister Madonna raced earlier in the day (cycling 90km at 83yrs old) then she came out and was at the finish line beside me and passing out finisher medals until midnight.  Quite a neat lady.

Weight loss challenge - 

I gained 2 lbs!!  Not sure how or why.  It was a recovery week for me so a little less intense maybe.

I worked out for 8.66 hours = 17.3 points

less 2 points for weight gain = 17.3 - 2 = 15.3 points.

Tomorrow I have a swim and run.  My plan is starting to ramp up a bit.