Steve-'s Distance Endurance Group - CLOSED (Page 16)

i'm actually indifferent because i love talking triathlon and few people around me care to listen...so it's great to be able to "unload" on athletes this stuff.

ha ha ha

Suzy, I highly doubt that.

swimming is all about "feel" and instilling good technique allows the swimmer to really "feel" if their body is in good position, they are well balanced through the entire stroke cycle...creating a foundation to generate power, etc.

sculling is a drill for more "advanced" swimmers and allows the swimmer to get a good "feel" of the water at/in their palms.  a video of sculling can be seen here.

i rarely, if ever, use the sculling drill for my athletes because it produces the sensation of truly "pulling" water behind you and causes (over time) swimmers to power through their stroke.  the result can be shortened stroke, shorter distance per stroke.

I stress elongation, power from the core, and high elbows (effectuated through fist drills) more because this focuses the swimmer on truly getting efficient and slippery through the water.

If a swimmer has great elbow position in the power phase of their stroke then sometimes I use sculling, but more often than not I typically then begin the use of paddles to create power in their shoulders and lats directly related to swimming.



Edited by Steve- 2010-02-03 9:52 AM

So let me just start out by level setting everyone as to why the article is mentioning why it is (1) efficiency first then (2) propulsion next.

When you're running or cycling, you have the ground as a "foundation."  However, waterborne operations are executed in a liquid environment; which lack this foundation.  Consequently, balance is the most important aspect to learn in swimming because of this lack of foundation.  Once an athlete obtains balance control in the water they can then build on this and move to working on proper body position from this balance control. 

Balance and body position are the two primary drivers that create hydrodynamic efficiency for humans in a liquid environment.  Because water is approximately 800 times more dense than air, inefficient movements are extremely unforgiving and their effect is, well, multiplied by 800 times when compared to inefficient movements in an air environment.  Consequently, if the focus for swim speed improvement is on propulsion prior to good solid efficiency, the athlete will very quickly understand the comment in the article "If your drag is very high working on your propulsion will only bring you small gains in speed."  I refer to this concept as the Exponential Inefficiency Increase Curve (pretty fancy huh?  I sure hope so because it took me a whole 13 seconds to think up a name for it...ha ha ha).  The EIIC is just a $30,000 term I use to describe the phenomenon that a swimmer can actually exert MORE energy in the water but actually swim slower and this same swimmer (with proper training) can actually exert LESS energy in the water but actually swim faster.  The EIIC very rarely exists in activities executed in an air environment.  It is because the existance of the EIIC that efficiency should be the initial focus for speed improvement.

Everyone level set?  Good.

Now, to answer your question of at what point the decision should be made that your stroke is "good enough" that you can begin to work on propulsion techniques.  The answer is not as simple as you might expect.  Efficiency improvement work and propulsion improvement work do not occur in silos; meaning, when you're working on efficiency you are also working on propulsion but you just don't know it (or if you do, you shouldn't be focusing on it) and vice versa.  The reason: as you become better balanced in the water and have better body position in the water your "feel" for the water improves and with this improvement of feel you also begin to inadvertently (however slight) begin to improve your propulsion capabilities.  Conversely, when you're "working on" improving your propulsion you also inadvertently (however slight) continue to improve (or maintain) your efficiency.

Blah, blah, blah, blah...right?  Well, kinda....if I gave you the quick answer I would be giving you a fish to eat rather than teaching you to fish. 

It is my professional opinion that if you have good body position and balance as determined by a professional swim coach, it would be a good time to begin working on propulsion improvement.  What if you don't have access to a professional swim coach or your professional swim coach may have led you astray...you may ask?  Then I would BROADLY quantify a change in focus to begin at the point in which you can swim 10 x 100m with 15 sec rest in between in a time of 1:50-1:55.  However, this is a dangerous comment I just made because everyone reading this post is now doing math in their head and trying to determine if they have the ability to hit this mark.  Unfortunately there are several factors that will cause this statement I just made to not be true (hence the reason to have the determination made by a professional swim coach).  One example of these factors is powerful upper body strength allowing a swimmer to power through the water at 1:50s on the 100s but still not swim parallel to the water's surface (I have one of them in my Master's swim class actually).  That's why it's very important to get a professional opinion rendered on your stroke.

Is everyone still awake out there? 

I have drool coming out of mouth and my snore just woke me up. I am confused. Maybe it is just my blond hair. I was under the impression that even the pros still work on improving their stroke. Isn't that the only way to get faster??


Edited by TracyV 2010-02-05 7:45 PM

Wow, I'm in the boat wondering IF I can do this.  I'll find out Monday. However, I still that coach in the water with me.

*beating head on the wall*  I want to go faster!

I did find a swim coach (a girl I met last year while racing) who is willing to work with me for $200/5 hours.  That's her regular coaching rate and has a strong swimming background.  Distance is the limiter, though she is still in Mid-Michigan.

1)  no science behind it from my end; just based on the people I've seen swimming in my past 14 years in the sport.  On average, the people that swim 1:50ish or better seem to have "found their balance" and have good body position; but not all.  actually I'm giving swim lessons to someone currently that is SUPER slow in the water (yes, SS, she is slower than you...) but has unbelievable form.  She is an outlier and one of the reasons that made me hesitate with the 1:50ish number because I KNEW everyone would hyperfocus on that non-scientific point.

2)  I don't know because I have only been a spectator at 2 triathlons in my life so I don't have the ability to opine.  I have seen hundreds and hundreds athletes swim in the pool and knew what their 100 times were when watching them, but don't have that reference available to me for OWS...sry.





Edited by Steve- 2010-02-05 9:58 PM

what??  i'm so surprised to hear that coming from a scientist...specifically a Limnologist who just finished some probably very very "exciting" graduate school work. 

to answer your question, it's my opinion based on my own observation of swimmers that efficiency and propulsion work begin to converge around the 1:15-1:25ish 100 times.



Edited by Steve- 2010-02-05 10:02 PM

keep working.  swimming is one of the sports (similar to golf) that does not come "naturally"...you have to work at it to make changes.

Sorry.  Been out a while.  Been lurking but not thinking of much to add to the conversation.  Steve, thanks for the tips on swimming. Combined with my swim class I have made big advances in my stroke.   I had to ratchet back my training for a bit due to an inflamed bursis in the knee.  I have decided to concentrate on endurance rather than trying to increase my speed at the same time, so I think I'm back on track. #1 goal is to finish these events, right?

increasing intensity and endurance at the same time is very risky (as you've found out).  x2 for SS...getting healthy is key.  One of the most difficult things for new triathletes to do is to get through training and to the start line with no injuries.

I'm in the middle of a marathon training program now.  I've been cross training a bit on the bike and throwing in a swim here and there.  When the marathon is over (April 25)  I will merge into the begining weeks of a full IM program.

I've been practicing some of the swimming drills/techniques recently and my 100 time over shorter distances has been slowly getting faster, but my longer distance swims seem perpetually stuck at "slow". I know that its my first triathlon season, so its just a matter of putting in the time and the endurance will come, but its still kinda frustrating.

In response to J, I'm glad your wife is doing better. In addition, DVT's generally occur after someone has had a surgery or in people who have recently been on a plane. I know the reasoning for the plane is that sitting for hours and the pressure change can cause them to show up. Did the doctors say that your wife's incident could possibly be due to sitting in the car for too long?

Also, I've met a few people who have had to perform CPR before (fortunately I haven't), but it seems to be a rather traumatic event for everyone involved and it helps the CPR performer usually to let it out and talk about the experience. I had a classmate in undergrad who had to perform CPR on someone on his way to class one day. He was so shook up by it that he ended up skipping class. Unfortunately for him, he couldn't revive the person before the ambulance came so he couldn't help but think what ended up being the result at the hospital.

Kick sets have minimal benefit to improving 2-beat kicking effectivness but flutter kick drill sets help to strengthen hip flexors if that's an issue of weakness. Its important to note that too strong hip flexors can cause incorrect hip movement when running so use it with caution if at all as injury could result.

I have a really, really hard time with kick sets. They exhaust me. 50 yards feels like 200. I am super glad my coach doesn't give me very many!!



Edited by TracyV 2010-02-10 7:26 PM