Jim Kelley's (Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN) (Page 17)

There's some interesting stuff here... I didn't realize the traditional model of periodization was dated. I've never even thought of doing anything but something like three (or or two or four) weeks up, one week of recovery. What is the new model?

On muscular endurance, I think of it as the ability of peripheral muscles to resist fatigue at sub-threshold efforts. I'm not sure what's general about that. It seems that ability, especially on the bike, is the key to a solid Ironman time. To build it, I'm thinking about adding intervals in the 85-99% of threshold range to a mid-week ride during my major volume build (roughly 20-8 weeks pre-race), then as the race gets closer doing some long rides with some longer half-iron-ish efforts. I'm wondering when, if we can speak so generally, you usually prescribe those types of efforts for athletes and when you have athletes do above-threshold work.

Wow...training for the full Iron distance requires some insane hours.  

I didn't go to the link for the training plan so all I see are the hour totals for the 6 weeks listed.  How many hours a week were you putting in when you were doing your HIM in 2011?  I would think that some of the training would have to be based on your past training experience.  I know that even if I quite my job and had all the time in the world I wouldn't be able to make it through a 20 hour training week right now.  My goal was to be up to 10 hours a week right now in my training (my peak volume for the HIM distance), but I had to make some adjustments to the plan and scale things back because I was feeling overworked and had a lot of nagging soreness that I needed to address.  So my hour totals are ending up in the 8-1/2 to 9 hour rage even though I would be doing 10-15% more if my body was responding better to the training.  So I would think that part of the schedule would have to do with you past training level and building on that.

Next,  I see that you have Monday-Wednesday where you have lots of time for training.  I am very jealous. Saturday is my only day of the week with out regular time commitments, but even those days seem to have something fighting from my time about half the time.  If you have back to back days where you can do long work outs you should be in good shape from a stand point of working around your schedule.  Training 12 hours straight to build you endurance up for an Ironman isn't practice and the solution that I have seen it that for endurance you try to get two consecutive days to add up to the number of hours that you will be racing.  In other words if your goal it to get your endurance up to 12 hours you do a 6 hour ride two consecutive days.  

I personally would do your long runs/rides on Monday & Tuesday or Tuesday & Wednesday since those are the day that you have time.  I personally don't have a problem with keeping a long run and long ride (or two long runs or two long rides) on consecutive days.  Other who have actually done some of the HIM & IM would have more relative input though (I am still on the training for my first Triathlon).  Also,  6-7 years ago I had a schedule that required my long run for marathon training to be the day before my track club did there weekly speed workout on the track.  I was used to having having a recovery day after my long runs and for my speed work to be after I was recovered from long runs.  I was sure my track work out would suffer, but I actually found that my best track work outs were after long slow runs.  So...I now don't mind doing speed work after long runs. I typically put them on days that I don't have a lot of time though because I can get through them on a day when I don't have a lot of leeway of time in the scheduled but I can't get through the long work outs on those days, so I can have a fuller week by doing speed work on those days.   

As far as the vacation week goes...you will defiantly need to work around that so it can be a light week of training.  The earlier in the training the easier it is to move recovery weeks around.  You could make the week you are on vacation a recovery week by adjusting the weeks leading up to and following it.  

There are a lot of different training plans out there.   I have seen some plans that have a "Time Poor" and "Time Rich" plan where the time poor plan gets the job done on few hours a week, but the time rich plan is done on a more enjoyable schedule.  I have seen what one author called the minimalist plan where he didn't actually give a training plan, but rather shared all his tips for saving time during your week.  Such as doing a 3 hour ride on your trainer rather than loading up you bike and driving somewhere to wait around for a group ride to start.  So... he spent only 3 hours and about 5 minutes for a 3 hour ride rather than the 4-5 hours that he would have spend to do the same volume with a group ride.  

So...looking at your schedule things look very doable.  Getting the right plan really depends on you though.  What you need to work on, where you are at when you start the plan, how your body responds to the training, etc.    

My high school and college running coaches always seem to do:

1) Long easy run,

2) Medium long tempo run or run with sort surges mixed in

3) Short Speed Work out

4) Medium long easy run

5) Medium run on a hilly terrain or cross training

6) short easy Recovery day run

7) Short race or Long easy run.

So I would try to put speed work after a medium day where you go shorter than your long days and a little faster than your long day.  I don't have any science to back this though, just observation on what several coaches have done with their teams I have been on over about a 10 year period.  

So Here is an idea:

Sunday: Long Easy 90-180 mins. Run

Monday: Moderate to Easy  90-240 mins. bike (intervals/hills/speed work worked into shorter moderate rides.  For 20 hour weeks use this day for a longer ride) + 60-90 min swim

Tuesday: Moderate 45-70 mins Run (Go easy if you need a recovery run) + 60-90 min Swim

Wednesday: long Easy 180-360 mins Bike

Thursday: 45-60 mins Swim

Friday: Moderate 45-70 mins. Run (work in short surges/ repeats/speed work

Saturday: Rest

Disclaimer:  I have never done a Triathlon.  All of my coached endurance sports have been for running races from 1 mile up to full Marathons.  I am currently training for a 70.3 Tri and  personally have cut out all of my repeats type speed training and just do surges during my moderate runs/rides if my legs feel good (and take it slow and easy if they don't). Swimming is a different. Everyday day has drill sets, etc.

My high school and college running coaches always seem to do:

1) Long easy run,

2) Medium long tempo run or run with sort surges mixed in

3) Short Speed Work out

4) Medium long easy run

5) Medium run on a hilly terrain or cross training

6) short easy Recovery day run

7) Short race or Long easy run.

So I would try to put speed work after a medium day where you go shorter than your long days and a little faster than your long day.  I don't have any science to back this though, just observation on what several coaches have done with their teams I have been on over about a 10 year period.  

So Here is an idea:

Sunday: Long Easy 90-180 mins. Run

Monday: Moderate to Easy  90-240 mins. bike (intervals/hills/speed work worked into shorter moderate rides.  For 20 hour weeks use this day for a longer ride) + 60-90 min swim

Tuesday: Moderate 45-70 mins Run (Go easy if you need a recovery run) + 60-90 min Swim

Wednesday: long Easy 180-360 mins Bike

Thursday: 45-60 mins Swim

Friday: Moderate 45-70 mins. Run (work in short surges/ repeats/speed work

Saturday: Rest

Disclaimer:  I have never done a Triathlon.  All of my coached endurance sports have been for running races from 1 mile up to full Marathons.  I am currently training for a 70.3 Tri and  personally have cut out all of my repeats type speed training and just do surges during my moderate runs/rides if my legs feel good (and take it slow and easy if they don't). Swimming is a different. Everyday day has drill sets, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that almost any workout we do..at least to some degree...helps build muscular endurance.  Some types of workouts are more effective than others but we shouldn't get caught up in the notion that you have to hit pace x to achieve physiological adaptation y.  There is a spectrum of adaptations that will occur as you move from easy to hard efforts.  So, when you asked when you should introduce "muscular endurance sessions" I said I don't like the term because its too general....many types of workouts will help build muscular endurance to some degree...some more than others.  And it all gets down to the strengths and weaknesses of the athlete as to when you would schedule one type of workout over another.  Shane had a good post in last year's  Power Mentor Group  from last year (see page 21) that gives an overview how you can use testing to determine what approaches you could use in building your training plan.

Does your plan actually have you jump in from 12 hours in week 1 to 18 hours in week 2????  I know you said you were doing about 10 hours/week to prep for the spring but what is that extra 6 hours/week going from week 1 to 2 comprised of?   That's a very risky sudden increase in hours

We had one last gasp of winter here with an inch of snow but it has now melted and we should see 60 degree temps by next week.  The mentor program is supposed to go to the end of March/April.   I am wondering who in the group wants to keep this thread going.  I realize I have been out of the loop lately due to a lot of work-related travel and I apologize for that.   Let me know if you folks want to keep this ball rolling into spring!

I am doing my "A Race" the 25th of April (a 70.3).  I will be regrouping after then to make plans for what I want to do next.  Keeping the group going until the end of April would be great for me. 

Right now I am getting in my last long runs and rides (16 mile run last Saturday and probably around a 55+ miles ride this week end).  I have only got in one open water swim practice and my longest swim (in the pool) this year has been 800m.  I knew that it would be April before I could do much open water swimming due to weather and planned to get longer swims in leading up to race day as I cut back on running and cycling and hit the open water.  

Any tips for the final 4 weeks of preparation?

Is that 800 m just your longest continuous swim or longest total swim workout yardage?

800 meters is my longest continuous swim.  

My longest swim work out yardage is around 1200m.  My goal is to get 1000 meters in over my lunch break 3 times a week.  With travel from the office and changing I typically only have about 25 minutes of time when I am actually in the pool.  I usually do 400-500 meter to warm-up then 400-500 meters of drills then then hurry back to the office.  My plan was to start hitting the open water every Saturday starting the middle of March and start at about 25 minutes of continuous (or mostly continuous) swimming and add 5 minutes every week up to the race.  I got in the first open water session two weeks ago but was out of town last week and not able to do my open water swim.  Two weeks ago I decided not to start with the timed continuous swimming and just sent most of the session getting a feel for my wet suit and trying different things with sighting and simulated race starts.  I have four more Saturdays before race day.  How should I plan my swimming to get the most out of my 25 minutes lunch swimming session and my Saturday open water sessions (which aren't limited on time)? 

Hi Jim, I appreciate all the advice you've doled out. If you're up for keeping this thread going, I'm all for it, but I'd fine with letting it die too. Happy spring!

I'm more than happy to keep the thread going !!