Ernesto's group (4th season) - Closed (Page 184)

Updating for a couple of runs and my first swim in a month. Went Sunday to my tri-club swim challenge. The idea was to have 4 people in a lane, and do 100 meter relays two at a time (i.e. 2 people swim 100 mt; the next two swim 100 mt; repeat) with a  total goal per lane of 10,000 (or 2,500 per person). Not swimming in a month and first time swimming in a 50 mt pool definitely showed. Today I'm sore, but happy.

Mitch Swim 3 - Bike 11 -Run 13 - Rest 3 - Total 27 Time 19:57:15  
Matthew Swim 7 - Bike 7 - Run 7 - Rest 3 - Total 21 Time 24:27:35 
Jackie Swim 0 - Bike 3 - Run 14 - Rest 2 - Total 17 - Time 25:43:19 
Ernesto Swim 2 - Bike 6 - Run 7 - Rest 3 - Total 15 - Time 19:16'16" 
Mark Swim 2 - Bike 6- Run 6 Rest 5 Total 14 Time 13:35:00  
Jim Swim 0- Bike 5- Run 10 Rest 4 - Total 15 -Time 12:00:13 
Charlotte Swim 0 - Bike 8- Run 5 Rest 3 Total 13 (To Goal: 17) Time 8:24 (To Goal: 11:36) 
Samy Swim 1 - Bike 0 - Run 9 - Rest 7 - Total 10 Time 7:24:00
Gabe Swim 0 - Bike 5 - Run 4 - Rest 1 - Total 9 - Time 9:35:55  
Chris Swim 0 - Bike 0 - Run 8 - Rest 7 - Total 8 Time 7:08:34
Joe Swim 8- Bike 1 - Run 2 - Rest 1 - Total 11Time 7:25:12  
Barry Swim 1 - Bike 2 - Run 2 - Rest 7 - Total 5 - Time 2:58:52  
Scott Swim 1 Bike 0 - Run 1 - Rest 2 - Total -2 - Time 2:18

Double post, sorry.

Samy, how did you arrive at this 2:20 or 2:15 race time? Does it reflect your ability or just a wishful thinking? I honestly don't see how people could run long distances slower than pace by 30sec and then on race day expected to run much faster. How do you know if you could do that without trying that pace in training? But that's just me.

This morning ran 7k in humid heat and after work swam 1500m in the lake.

60' on drainer - high rpm intervals; 5 miles on dreadmill

Mitch Swim 3 - Bike 12 -Run 14 - Rest 3 - Total 29 Time 21:44:29 
Matthew Swim 8 - Bike 8 - Run 7 - Rest 3 - Total 23 Time 26:21:35 
Jackie Swim 0 - Bike 3 - Run 14 - Rest 2 - Total 17 - Time 25:43:19 
Mark Swim 3 - Bike 6- Run 7 Rest 6 Total 16 Time 14:47:00 
Ernesto Swim 2 - Bike 6 - Run 7 - Rest 3 - Total 15 - Time 19:16'16" 
Jim Swim 0- Bike 5- Run 10 Rest 4 - Total 15 -Time 12:00:13 
Charlotte Swim 0 - Bike 8- Run 5 Rest 3 Total 13 (To Goal: 17) Time 8:24 (To Goal: 11:36) 
Samy Swim 1 - Bike 0 - Run 9 - Rest 7 - Total 10 Time 7:24:00 
Gabe Swim 0 - Bike 5 - Run 4 - Rest 1 - Total 9 - Time 9:35:55 
Chris Swim 0 - Bike 0 - Run 8 - Rest 7 - Total 8 Time 7:08:34
Joe Swim 8- Bike 1 - Run 2 - Rest 1 - Total 11Time 7:25:12 
Barry Swim 1 - Bike 2 - Run 2 - Rest 7 - Total 5 - Time 2:58:52 
Scott Swim 1 Bike 0 - Run 1 - Rest 2 - Total -2 - Time 2:18

Adding two (forced) rest days. Yesterday was a nightmare at work and today I'm flying to San Antonio for the day

Mitch Swim 3 - Bike 12 -Run 14 - Rest 3 - Total 29 Time 21:44:29 
Matthew Swim 8 - Bike 8 - Run 7 - Rest 3 - Total 23 Time 26:21:35 
Jackie Swim 0 - Bike 3 - Run 14 - Rest 2 - Total 17 - Time 25:43:19 
Mark Swim 3 - Bike 6- Run 7 Rest 6 Total 16 Time 14:47:00 
Ernesto Swim 2 - Bike 6 - Run 7 - Rest 5 - Total 15 - Time 19:16'16" 
Jim Swim 0- Bike 5- Run 10 Rest 4 - Total 15 -Time 12:00:13 
Charlotte Swim 0 - Bike 8- Run 5 Rest 3 Total 13 (To Goal: 17) Time 8:24 (To Goal: 11:36) 
Samy Swim 1 - Bike 0 - Run 9 - Rest 7 - Total 10 Time 7:24:00 
Gabe Swim 0 - Bike 5 - Run 4 - Rest 1 - Total 9 - Time 9:35:55 
Chris Swim 0 - Bike 0 - Run 8 - Rest 7 - Total 8 Time 7:08:34
Joe Swim 8- Bike 1 - Run 2 - Rest 1 - Total 11Time 7:25:12 
Barry Swim 1 - Bike 2 - Run 2 - Rest 7 - Total 5 - Time 2:58:52 
Scott Swim 1 Bike 0 - Run 1 - Rest 2 - Total -2 - Time 2:18

Mitch, I jinxed myself.  Didn't get to my run until after dark last night.  Tripped and fell on sidewalk.  Pretty scraped up and hit my head, but got up and ran home.  Everything appears to be fine, but today I'm resting!

Mitch Swim 3 - Bike 12 -Run 14 - Rest 3 - Total 29 Time 21:44:29
Matthew Swim 8 - Bike 8 - Run 7 - Rest 3 - Total 23 Time 26:21:35
Jackie Swim 0 - Bike 3 - Run 15 - Rest 3- Total 18 - Time 26:37:27
Mark Swim 3 - Bike 6- Run 7 Rest 6 Total 16 Time 14:47:00
Ernesto Swim 2 - Bike 6 - Run 7 - Rest 5 - Total 15 - Time 19:16'16"
Jim Swim 0- Bike 5- Run 10 Rest 4 - Total 15 -Time 12:00:13
Charlotte Swim 0 - Bike 8- Run 5 Rest 3 Total 13 (To Goal: 17) Time 8:24 (To Goal: 11:36)
Samy Swim 1 - Bike 0 - Run 9 - Rest 7 - Total 10 Time 7:24:00
Gabe Swim 0 - Bike 5 - Run 4 - Rest 1 - Total 9 - Time 9:35:55
Chris Swim 0 - Bike 0 - Run 8 - Rest 7 - Total 8 Time 7:08:34
Joe Swim 8- Bike 1 - Run 2 - Rest 1 - Total 11Time 7:25:12
Barry Swim 1 - Bike 2 - Run 2 - Rest 7 - Total 5 - Time 2:58:52
Scott Swim 1 Bike 0 - Run 1 - Rest 2 - Total -2 - Time 2:18

Mark,

My 2:20-2:15 goal is based on a few things, including wishful thinking. Galloway has a calculator based on what he calls the magic mile to assess your potential pace for different distances; I combined that with what I think I can do (I have run 6 miles at 10:00 and finished with something in the tank). Again, my goals will be reassess once I get closer to race day; this is for the time being.

However, this is my first HM. Most plans that I have seen call for a long run at slower than pace, with a few shorter pace run or speed based training (my longest long run is 12 miles, pace run is 5 miles). I thought that was the norm. Am I mistaken? Your point of having to race at pace to understand what the body can do make sense, but plans do not call for this, so I am a little confused.

Samy - I think Mark's question is valid.  What criteria did you use to arrive at the 2:20 to 2;15 pace?  I will suggest that your long runs should be in that 90 sec slower than race pace range.  You should feel that you can do more at the end of your long runs.  My recommendation would be ensure you have a valid race pace (not a stretch goal - but one based on actual race times for similar or other distances) and then follow the plan's guidelines for training paces.

Not apples to apples - but I'm following a Hanson's HM training plan.  My projected race pace is 7:42 or a race time of 1:41.  My majority of runs (long and easy) are in the 9:41 to 9:02 range.  There is speed work that is at race pace or faster.  Ernesto and others would be great resources here.

Samy,

Use this calculator to estimate your finish time (you have to plug in a number from a different race):

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

I don't want to be a heretic, but for me those calculators (I just checked both of them) are spot on for 5 and 10k distances, after that - very unrealistic times. According to them I should be doing marathons in 3:49... Yeah, I wish. And it's not that I haven't run longer distances in preparation. Again, it's just me.

You're right, they tend to be optimistic for the longer distances. But not really that far though, usually when someone fails to apply their speed to a long(er) distance is because of lack of base mileage at race speed.

For example, training for marathons requires all sorts of paces and training distances, but the runs with the most impact in fitness are those at race pace for distances that are much shorter than the race itself. Depth is acquired doing LSRs (long slow runs).

Had a good day at PT today and it feels like I am making the turn with my piriformis.  Pain is almost non-existent, but working on core and flexibility extensively.  Don't know about you guys, but I love PT.  Have a great therapy practice who make it easy (lots of athletes with a DPT degrees is a great thing) and they are paid to listen to my complaints and help me improve.  Gotta love it.

in terms of calculators, I agree that they don't work for me beyond 13 miles.  I know the drop off in performance from 5K to 10K to 10 Miles to 13.1 miles, but that comes from experience.  The calculators are based on numbers and not experience so they are a statistically invalid assessment tool.  According to them my marathon goal should be sub 3:15 - fat chance. Too many variables at longer distances.

Hey E: As I ease back into running and the bike, where to start? The adaptations my body went through during the marathon training have been lost and I haven't done honest bike sessions since June.  Swimming fitness however is progressing ahead of schedule.  Will take things slow and listen to the body, but I could use some thoughtful guidance.

I'm actually curious about this one. How much shorter are they? 10k or 21k? Say I'm trying to target my potential marathon pace of 3:50. This would mean a 10k in 54-55min, which I do all the time. Long runs would be at much slower pace, which I also do. Still, how am I expected to run a marathon at 10k (55min ) pace when all long runs have been done at slower pace? I am confused.

For me the only way to prepare myself for faster marathon would be to run long distances faster. Where am I wrong?

Got a full night's sleep for a change - only got my run in though.  

Mitch Swim 3 - Bike 12 -Run 15 - Rest 3 - Total 30 Time 22:25:02 
Matthew Swim 8 - Bike 8 - Run 8 - Rest 3 - Total 24 Time 28:25:35 
Jackie Swim 0 - Bike 3 - Run 15 - Rest 3- Total 18 - Time 26:37:27 
Mark Swim 3 - Bike 6- Run 7 Rest 6 Total 16 Time 14:47:00 
Ernesto Swim 2 - Bike 6 - Run 7 - Rest 5 - Total 15 - Time 19:16'16" 
Jim Swim 0- Bike 5- Run 10 Rest 4 - Total 15 -Time 12:00:13 
Charlotte Swim 0 - Bike 8- Run 5 Rest 3 Total 13 (To Goal: 17) Time 8:24 (To Goal: 11:36) 
Chris Swim 0 - Bike 0 - Run 10 - Rest 8 - Total 10 Time 9:07:25 
Samy Swim 1 - Bike 0 - Run 9 - Rest 7 - Total 10 Time 7:24:00 
Gabe Swim 0 - Bike 5 - Run 4 - Rest 1 - Total 9 - Time 9:35:55 
Joe Swim 8- Bike 1 - Run 2 - Rest 1 - Total 11Time 7:25:12 
Barry Swim 1 - Bike 2 - Run 2 - Rest 7 - Total 5 - Time 2:58:52 
Scott Swim 1 Bike 0 - Run 1 - Rest 2 - Total -2 - Time 2:

Matthew - I'll second what Chris wrote.  I took a quick look at your logs (Mark - your's appear to be similar).  The last few months, eyeballing it, it looks like you are running 2.5 times per week and 14 miles per week on average.  What I have learned and what I believe is that to be a good longer distance runner you need to be running 5 to 6 days per week - most slow and sometimes fast.  Jackie bought the Hanson's Marathon Method and not sure if she finsihed it yet, but the 1st chapter is available to download online and provides a quick overview of the concept of increased frequency, then increased volume and then increased intensity.  By running at easier paces you give your body the opportunity to train more frequently and for longer distances/times. You then sprinkle in intensity to teach your body to run fast.  I essentially followed this concept for my early spring HM last year and crushed my 4 year old PR.  The plan I'm following now will get me to much larger weekly mileage and I know the adaptations it brings to my aerobic system will be great. 

4 miles at 10:00 pace

Mitch Swim 3 - Bike 12 -Run 15 - Rest 3 - Total 30 Time 22:25:02 
Matthew Swim 8 - Bike 8 - Run 8 - Rest 3 - Total 24 Time 28:25:35 
Jackie Swim 0 - Bike 3 - Run 15 - Rest 3- Total 18 - Time 26:37:27 
Mark Swim 3 - Bike 6- Run 7 Rest 6 Total 16 Time 14:47:00 
Ernesto Swim 2 - Bike 6 - Run 7 - Rest 5 - Total 15 - Time 19:16'16" 
Jim Swim 0- Bike 5- Run 10 Rest 4 - Total 15 -Time 12:00:13 
Charlotte Swim 0 - Bike 8- Run 5 Rest 3 Total 13 (To Goal: 17) Time 8:24 (To Goal: 11:36) 
Chris Swim 0 - Bike 0 - Run 10 - Rest 8 - Total 10 Time 9:07:25 
Samy Swim 1 - Bike 0 - Run 10 - Rest 8 - Total 11 Time 8:03:23
Gabe Swim 0 - Bike 5 - Run 4 - Rest 1 - Total 9 - Time 9:35:55 
Joe Swim 8- Bike 1 - Run 2 - Rest 1 - Total 11Time 7:25:12 
Barry Swim 1 - Bike 2 - Run 2 - Rest 7 - Total 5 - Time 2:58:52 
Scott Swim 1 Bike 0 - Run 1 - Rest 2 - Total -2 - Time 2:

Regarding HM training paces...Ok, this is getting complicated

I practically agree with everyone. I do believe in the need to train your body to run at pace, but also in combining easy runs to allow for more frequency. Chris, your breakdown of runs/paces sounds logical, and I like logical things. Based on this, can you guys gave me feedback/approval/criticism of my HM plan? Sorry for the long post, but the engineer in me likes numbers.

Background:

1st HM. Following Higdon beginners 2 plan. My plan calls for 4 runs/week. 1 long run (max. 12 miles), 1 pace run (max 5 miles), 2 easy runs (3 miles). I like it 'cause it incorporates pace runs, it keeps things simple, but allows me to rest and catch up with sleep. Wanted to accomplish 2 things this offseason - HM training and race, and doing it in a way that allows me to start Tri season refreshed (as 90% of training for me is at 5:00 am)

1st step: Define race pace.

Ernesto, I used the calculator you send me. My problem is that I have not done an official race (other than triathlons), so I took my best 5K training run (8:45 pace - actually entered in the calculator at 9:00 pace) and it gave me a 2:10 target HM. Not going to even try that one. Then I entered my longest run at something other than MAF -  a 6 mile at slightly under 10:00 pace (not all out, hard but left something in the tank). It came to a 2:17 HM target (10:30 pace). Conclusion: My original 2:20 target (2:15 stretch target) apparently are good.

2nd step: Define training pace.

So this is what I am thinking for pace:

Easy: MAF (aprox. 12:00 pace for 3 miles)

Pace: 10:00

Long Run: This is where I am undecided. 30 to 90 seconds slower than pace puts me in the 10:30 to 11:30 range. Split the difference and do 11:00 pace or be conservative and do a 11:15 pace?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Samy - you could go to the Macmillan Running Calculator and it will give you training paces based off of race times.  Just my two cents!

Runch today, feeling flat and bloated...

Mitch Swim 3 - Bike 12 -Run 15 - Rest 3 - Total 30 Time 22:25:02 
Matthew Swim 8 - Bike 8 - Run 8 - Rest 3 - Total 24 Time 28:25:35 
Jackie Swim 0 - Bike 3 - Run 15 - Rest 3- Total 18 - Time 26:37:27
Ernesto Swim 2 - Bike 6 - Run 8 - Rest 5 - Total 16 - Time 19:55'43"
Mark Swim 3 - Bike 6- Run 7 Rest 6 Total 16 Time 14:47:00 
Jim Swim 0- Bike 5- Run 10 Rest 4 - Total 15 -Time 12:00:13 
Charlotte Swim 0 - Bike 8- Run 5 Rest 3 Total 13 (To Goal: 17) Time 8:24 (To Goal: 11:36) 
Chris Swim 0 - Bike 0 - Run 10 - Rest 8 - Total 10 Time 9:07:25 
Samy Swim 1 - Bike 0 - Run 10 - Rest 8 - Total 11 Time 8:03:23
Gabe Swim 0 - Bike 5 - Run 4 - Rest 1 - Total 9 - Time 9:35:55 
Joe Swim 8- Bike 1 - Run 2 - Rest 1 - Total 11Time 7:25:12 
Barry Swim 1 - Bike 2 - Run 2 - Rest 7 - Total 5 - Time 2:58:52 
Scott Swim 1 Bike 0 - Run 1 - Rest 2 - Total -2 - Time 2: