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 2011-01-05 1:00 PM in reply to: #3279523 |
Champion  19812     MA |  Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!wiky - 2011-01-05 11:57 AM Regarding RPE, HR, power, no power, training, racing, etc., I think this all goes back to what Fred said earlier: My feeling on all issues tri related is that there really are many, many ways to be successful. That's one of the nice things about sport. Lots of different philosophies, many of which work quite well. What's best for one person may not be best for another. Especially when you incorporate psychological factors. As far as how we feel on race day vs training, I'm personally more in line with Fred on that one. In IM training I almost always have residual fatigue. The two times I've done IM, the taper has made me feel very strong on race day. I never felt like that in training, and I'm pretty sure I was riding higher watts in the race than I did on long rides in training. But my RPE was similar to my training rides. I remember a similar thing happening in college during track season. We'd beat ourselves up during the season with speedwork, hills, and races. I always feeling thrashed to one degree or another. But then we'd taper way back before the conference meet and some of us would go significantly faster than we had all season. (Some others wouldn't see much improvement for the conference meet - maybe they would have benefited from another approach?) I wish I was more like you and Fred on this issue. Tapering does help and I feel fresher than training. But I've yet to be surprised other than one sprint to see what my power was post race. Is it a competitiveness? Physiological ability? I think my IM Canada my bike power would have been higher than in training and it was until I started getting sick then everything went down hill. Edited by KathyG 2011-01-05 1:23 PM |
| 2011-01-05 1:02 PM in reply to: #3279812 |
Master 1572  Baltimore | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! TankBoy - 2011-01-05 1:34 PM wiky - 2011-01-05 12:34 PM Fred Doucette - 2011-01-05 12:01 PM Graycat - 2011-01-05 11:49 AM Really interesting discussion on power, guys! I can see me looking into this further for the next season already.  Fred Doucette - 2011-01-05 4:40 PM Did you know most top pro's don't race with power, or if they do many of them cover their numbers up so they can't see them on raceday? I plan on training AND racing with power, but I do feel that it's a legit strategy to train with power and not race with it. Just a different approach. Why do they not use them during the race, Fred?OK we are dealing with TRUE elite athletes at this point. They are not trying to hit certain power goals (although I'm sure some are, I just know guys like Faris and Macca don't look). They are trying to win the race and they won't let certain people get too far ahead just because it would put their power numbers up too high. ie; Macca is going to keep certain riders like Raelert in his view as he knows what they can run and he knows what he can run. I'm sure this is true for some pro's, but not necessarily for all it seems, http://tinyurl.com/2vwu8xo Wow Kathleen, see what you started?! Back when this group first got fired up just a couple of weeks ago, bike gearing seemed like a difficult enough topic!  I only just installed a PM (quarq) 3 months ago, and have just recently begun to do some of my workouts based on power only - long rides are still HR and most others are a combo of HR and power - mostly this is to get acclimated to understanding both the alignments and disconnects between the two inputs. I am listening to my coach 100% - and learning quite a bit from this discussion as well. To the larger issue of training vs. racing according to data collection (whether it is HR, power, or pace) Like everything in this sport it is probably both personal fluid. I found that early on in my career the data (HR in my case) helped a great bit, it acted as sort of a fuel tank that kept me from running out of gas before reaching the next petrol station. A little later in my career however, it negatively became more of a speed governor - I began to believe what the numbers meant too much and would run to them. When I switched over to adventure racing, often I would not even use a watch, much less any other data collection - it did not matter (and would often even lead to frustration) as you could only go as fast as your slowest team mate, which over 24 hours or more everybody gets at least one opportunity to be the one going through a rough patch. when I came back to tris, I continued to trained with little input beyond RPE, and raced with none, and experienced some of my best times ever. But that was all at the sprint and olympic distance. Like Fred (and I think maybe Rob mentioned as well?) I do find that at least at these distances I have capacities in a race that I just do not have in real life. for me I don't think it is altogether due to fatigue vs. taper either - it just seems that in a good race there is just this mysterious extra gear sometimes that comes from being able to hang on outside your capacity for just thirty seconds. Its weird, but the best sprint races I have enjoyed have been when I can finish up in the group on the bike, hang on, and then absolutely turn myself inside out for the first 6 minutes of the last 12 minutes of the run. My experience with HIM is of course is WAY different, and I have to believe that IM will be way, way, WAY different. For these races, I am actually counting on my PM & HRM to once again be a regulator, but this time in a positive sense. In a funny way I expect them to be my slower race partner like in an adventure race, particularly on the bike. I really, really want to run the marathon. Ramble complete. Now it is time to dress up like a character from "Deadliest Catch" and get out in this miserable drizzle for a 2:45 bike/:45 run-off. Yea. I think you always had the capability to reach that extra gear, perhaps just not the motivation (or necessity) to in training. You really can't go 110% (because then you just underestimated your 100%). |
| 2011-01-05 1:22 PM in reply to: #3279465 |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! Fred Doucette - 2011-01-05 11:40 AM I think there is a point. ie; the powermeter allows you to structure very solid training and make sure you push at the right levels of intensity. Did you know most top pro's don't race with power, or if they do many of them cover their numbers up so they can't see them on raceday? I plan on training AND racing with power, but I do feel that it's a legit strategy to train with power and not race with it. Just a different approach. Lastly, my coach plans on using my numbers at Columbia Olympic in late May to develop my zones. As far as I know we don't have any CP20 or CP5 tests scheduled, but I honestly don't know. If he tells me to do one, then I will do one lol I think that makes a lot of sense what you said - and you highlighted in one of the other posts. The Pro's are racing each other, and need to be willing to ignore power and HR data to a certain degree. That said, how many times have we seen professionals blow up at the IM level. I think many of them can get away with it at the shorter distances, but as mentioned - IM is just a different beast, and you need to respect what your training tells you is achievable (much like Kathy's post above). As for not testing until late May, doesn't that seem like kind of a long time to go before doing a test? I was under the impression you were getting the PM fairly soon - and at a minimum you already have the CT. How are your rides structured at the moment if not done with power? |
 2011-01-05 1:42 PM in reply to: #3279968 |
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| 2011-01-05 2:34 PM in reply to: #3280171 |
| Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! Fred Doucette - 2011-01-05 3:23 PM KathyG - I wish I was more like you and Fred on this issue. Tapering does help and I feel fresher than training. But I've yet to be surprised other than one sprint to see what my power was post race. Is it a competitiveness? Physiological ability? I think my IM Canada my bike power would have been higher than in training and it was until I started getting sick then everything went down hill. I wish I had the answer for you Kathy! I think it is a realtively poorly understood area in sports science imho. My friend BryanCD really believes in pushing his long rides really hard at IM level. He rode the IMAZ course (all 112 miles) before last year's IMAZ and had almost the exact same bike split. He doesn't get that raceday jump, but maybe it's because he is training much harder than me and it's just closer to a raceday effort? I don't have the answer here but I find it very interesting! It is very interesting. Both you and Bryan do very well in HIM and IM races yet that is a significant difference in training vs. racing. I think one key take away is we need to observe what we have done in training vs. racing and how the race went and use that data to help make race plan in the future. I know in '09 my coach changed my IM Canada watt goals after reviewing my HIM race power 2 months before. Real results in race were good way to determine what was appropriate for me in my IM. Figuring out best way to have fastest results is part of the challenge of the sport. Why are there so many different coaches, different methods? Things aren't one size fits all and different ways to do things. |
| 2011-01-05 2:40 PM in reply to: #3280101 |
| Master 1572 Baltimore | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! Fred Doucette - 2011-01-05 3:02 PM jsiegs - Just a few thoughts...way to stir up the controversy, on purpose no less! Skiba/JorgeM/my coach coworker (who all work together) advocate the 20 min and a shorter 3 or 5 min all out power test. Then you plot those two points and the slope is CP (more technically, you convert W to Joules by multiplying by the time in seconds of the test, e.g. my 20min power = 282 W *20*60 (multiply by 20 min, then by 60 b/c 60 sec in a minute)= 338400 J. So it's not just 95% of your 20 min power. Bottom line, it's a test method I can do repleatedly and make consistant from one test to the next. (20 min and 3 min are just suggestions based on his research that give good results, I believe you can make the 20 min longer if you like, but the short effort is important to keep in the equation). The curve that defines how your power drops with time is well known (according to him) and the two points will define that curve for a given person. That's why they say this curve is more accurate when extended out to longer efforts. So IM training will probably increase 20MP more than 3 MP. But based on the formula for CP, lets say my 20 MP remains constant (or rises), but my 3 MP drops (or stays constant or rises less than 20MP) because of all the low intensity stuff I'm doing - my CP will INCREASE, which logically follows (my short burst ability goes down, my longer abilities go up). Conversely, raising my 3MP while 20MP stays the same decreases my CP. So it seems like the effects of those short distance tests are an indication of what your training has adapted you to do, and can allow you to extrapolate out to longer distances. Or maybe not. I think that you are right in saying that 2 people can't ride an IM at the same % of FTP with the same results. He gives ranges for each race distance for that reason. A person taking 6 hours will have to ride at a lower % than a person taking 5 hours (because they have to put out that effort longer). Same with a person adapted to shorter or longer distances. That's something I don't think you can ever really know until you try it out. My coworker makes all his athletes do a race sim (about 100miles and 18-20 mile run I believe) to hone in on the correct power % (and perhaps more importantly to test nutrition). This is probably waaay more important for the first time IMer and as Fred mentioned, once you're more experienced, you can use the results of previous races and a comparison of FTP (then and now) to get a good estimation of where you need to be for the next race. One last thing he drilled into me is that I'm not special on race day (to perhaps offer a diferent perspective than Fred, but perhaps not quite). I am what my training allows me to be. If my training will let me bike at 85% CP and run 8 min/mile, I can't "dig deep" and get all 80's feel good movie on race day and give that extra effort. If I bike at 87% and run 7:30s, I will not be able to. That being said, training is done in a constant state of fatigue. So when you start biking at 85% it will probably feel easier than training at 85%, at least at first (becuase as that marathon training article suggested, you're mimicing running the last 16 miles of the marathon in training, not the first 16). SO in training you never feel like you could put out 85% for a HIM, but on race day you can because you're not fatigued. So your training defines what you are capable of (obviously), but the "guess" is exactly what your training has made you capable of. Clear as mud. So...feel free to tell me where you think i'm wrong A few disclosures before I answer this, because I am aware that internet communication often results in responses being taken in the wrong vein and I would be horrified if you took it this way as I see that your post is an excellent one! 1. I am very good friends with Jorge. Have met him a number of times, and know many of his coached athletes. 2. My knowledge of power is not very high, but I believe I have a good knowledge base for PACING, whatever that means 3. I have trained with power since 2008 on a CT, but never on an outdoor bike and have read the books you discussed. 4. Referring back to #4, I am no expert on the topic, so take what you want out of this. In reference to paragraph #1. Yes, I fully understand the methodology, in fact I followed Jorge' winter cycling program one year. He is truly expert on power imho. The part we will have to agree to disagree on is the extrapolation of the results for longer distances. I just know that many people get burned by using the combo of shorter tests for IM pacing. I've seen it go both ways: A) the people who test well on the shorter CPO tests yet it is too hard an effort at IM distance racing to allow a decent cahnce at a run. B) the people who test poorly at shorter CP tests and under pace the bike. I am not a believer that going super easy on the bike will allow a better run at IM distance, it just results in lost time in the race and may hurt the run as you may be on the bike much longer than you otherwise would. In reference to paragraph #2. I really like race sim situations for pacing like your co-worker suggests. I like them much better than FTP numbers developed off an indoor trainer for CP20, 5 times. In reference to paragraph #3. I think this is what Rob, Rusty and Kathy are also talking about. What is the delta difference on performance on raceday vs. training once you account for a taper, fatigue being lifted and just the adrenaline of racing? It is probably different very every single person. I know for me the delta is pretty big. Big for the swim, the bike and the run. I never swim the paces that I do on raceday. I recently did a 1,000 yard TT in the pool and my pace was 1:29. I race much faster than that at all distances but IM (except last years eagleman which was way off!). I never do training rides that are 2h20" at 23+mph, yet I've done that twice at eagleman and run reasonably well both times off that. Bottom line is different things work for different people. The Jorge philosophy works for a lot of people so I mean it no discredit. I just have through trial and error figured out what works best for me. Rob sounds like he has had similar experiences. The fatigue of IM training is really huge and I never seem to perform well at any training in the months leading up to the race, yet it seems to work out for me. Lastly, the biggest plus I see of the CP20, CP5 testing is that it's reproducible to determine fitness progress. I guess I would say that I use race results to determine fitness progress and I just don't care where I am at in January, but will care on a day in May, a day in June and a day in September No offense taken, whatsoever (and I hope that I do not come across in an ill manner, as it is never my intent either). I do enjoy debates, so maybe I get a little worked up sometimes, but I really mean no disrespect or rudeness. I completely understand what you say about the IM being a different beast. The thing I wrote in paragraph one about 20MP and 3MP and how changing them affects CP was just something that popped out to me and seemed to logically fit with what may be happening. Just a thought experiment really - I don't have data or experts to back that up (sorry if I didn't say that up front, but it's sort of what I meant by "or maybe not" to end that paragraph. I was sort of throwing it out there and waiting for someone to confirm or deny it. I've talked about IM, but really, I've never even considered doing one or how to train for one. My experience barely hits the HIM distance, as I've done one of those, and have another planned. So lets say from your race sim or previous races, you determine that riding at 80% CP is ideal. Between then and your next race, your CP (always tested the same) increases 10 W. Do you think that you can still use the 80% of that new number as your target? Or you need to do a race sim again? I think you're saying you'd need to do the race sim again, correct? One last thing, pehaps this is more philosophical than anything. RE: your friends and group ride. Could you have kept up with your friends if you REALLY wanted to? maybe you didn't care enough, maybe you know the consequenses would be too high, maybe you're more fatigued at the moment, maybe they're better trained for the group ride sprint and you're better trained for the race of truth. Perhaps in training you're held to 95% because of one of those reasons. On raceday you can hit 99 or 100% because those things are no longer an issue. I don't think you can exceed what you are capable of, that's a paradox to me - if you can run that fast/long/hard, you were always capable of it, you just may not have known. Ok, that's it, sorry for derailing the entire group with this, but I really enjoyed the discussion. I'm done...so much work I didn't do this afternoon! Edited by jsiegs 2011-01-05 2:42 PM |
| 2011-01-05 2:57 PM in reply to: #3256949 |
| Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! I've talked about IM, but really, I've never even considered doing one or how to train for one. My experience barely hits the HIM distance, as I've done one of those, and have another planned. So lets say from your race sim or previous races, you determine that riding at 80% CP is ideal. Between then and your next race, your CP (always tested the same) increases 10 W. Do you think that you can still use the 80% of that new number as your target? Or you need to do a race sim again? I think you're saying you'd need to do the race sim again, correct? I had the above situation happen to me last year. I test on the bike every 6-8 weeks but can tell when my FTP is up as intervals feel easier so may ask my coach to push that up or back depending on how training feels. I'm usually right about changes in my FTP. 7-9 days before my April HIM I did CP testing and my power went up about 18 watts. I had done race simulations with lower FTP number and no time to do another race simulation. I talked at length with this issue with my coach go with same percentage of FTP or with what I had practiced in race simulations. We came up with a plan with a bit of wiggle room in it. If I felt good push up the watts and if not stay where I had been in race rehearsals. Rode at watts of rehearsals and had my best HIM run to date by a lot. My run pace was dead on where we thought it would be. It was a 4 loop run course and my splits were within 25" for each loop and I was able to have slight negative split on the run. I was only 2 minutes slower than 1/2 Mary I had done 2 months earlier. You could say given my FTP I under performed on the bike. But I don't see it that way. My run proved bike pacing was good. Could I have pushed harder on the bike and still had a good run? I don't know. For me with cycling being my strength and running not as much, pushing my bike so run is even harder, hasn't been an effective race strategy for me. I use what has worked for pacing at % of FTP and hasn't in various races and current race rehearsals to plan for next race. I've been racing & training with power for a long time. |
| 2011-01-05 8:10 PM in reply to: #3256949 |
| Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! Just wanted to say - great discussion. Gives me a lot to think about and consider. |
| 2011-01-05 9:44 PM in reply to: #3256949 |
| Member 413 | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! Hey guys! Been away, had a great time in California, good to be back. |
Kate| 2011-01-06 2:13 AM in reply to: #3256949 |
| Expert 937 | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! Interesting conversation about power and testing. I'm not really at the point where I would be using a power meter. I love most forms of technology and would love to get one but the money situation is a big sticking point right now. I had a pretty good week of training last week with 10 hours in the books. I think that was close to my biggest volume week so far. Tonight I had an easy 1 hour spin and 30 min run. I'm slowly tapering down for my 1/2 marathon. I'm still doing a decent amount of volume but just taking it easy on the effort. I just don't want to get hurt this close to race day. It's been cold here in Phoenix the last week or two so I have been mainly working out at the gym with a few runs outside during the days. I know cold here is different that most of you deal with but we're just not acclimated to being in cold weather. I think my training for my HIM is going right on schedule and my nutrition is really getting dialed in. I'm trying to keep at 200 calories of cliff bars on the bike and GU's on the run plus 100 calories from sports drinks per hour. This seems to be working good for me and I'm tolerating it very well. Hope everyone is having a great week so far. Todd |
| 2011-01-06 6:01 AM in reply to: #3281133 |
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| 2011-01-06 6:02 AM in reply to: #3256949 |
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| 2011-01-06 7:12 AM in reply to: #3281133 |
| Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! kr140.6 - 2011-01-05 10:44 PM Hey guys! Been away, had a great time in California, good to be back. Kate, Thanks for kind words. I'm glad to be sharing journey with you. First IM at Lake Placid is an amazing experience. Liking to train is an important characteristic to have a successful IM and being a runner prior to doing triathlons is a plus. Working to hard on the up hills is area folks ride to hard in an Ironman. How did your run TT go? |
| 2011-01-06 7:22 AM in reply to: #3256949 |
| Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! Yesterday, I saw a new PT for my pes anserine bursitis evaluation. She was/ is a competitive runner in college top D1 runner. She is 24 weeks pregnant and still runs 50 miles per week...less than before and slower. I need to strengthen my hips and glutes. Due to my weakness I don't support my non weight bearing leg/hip enough while running which makes my knee collapse a bit which makes the muscle chain longer and effects where my hamstring attaches to my shin the pes anserine bursa hurt. It is often triggered by tight hamstrings, but mine are not tight. Stretching after every run has helped me stay more flexible than most triathletes/cyclists. I can run as I have adjusting run based on pain level and if pain goes away, gets better or worse. She shared about the current research on running with some issues I have and was encouraging running won't long term won't put me at greater risk for further knee issues. Literature is pointing more towards that folks that aren't active are more likely to have knee issues get worse. She did say that often sedentary often overweight folks would come in for PT due to pain with the level of osteoarthritis I have in my left knee, but due to being active and strong that doesn't really bother me much. |
| 2011-01-06 7:46 AM in reply to: #3256949 |
| Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! Question about everyone's training schedules - how do you manage your time, and fit everything in? For me, I usually use my lunch hour at work 5x per week. My gym chain has a location with a pool 10 minutes away, and this is where I do 90+% of my swimming, but it also means I'm limited to about 1/2 hour each session (I know that I need more volume). Work also has a shower, so I can run on lunch and get in as much as 10km. As for riding, this is typically done in the am, but I have a great relationshhip with my bed, and we have a hard time parting in the mornings - so I find that I oversleep and have to cut the trainer ride short or miss it all together. Weekends I try to do something longer distance for bike or run - never really swim, but these don't jive very well with family time. Which is the key reason I don't swim on the weekend since I would have to drive to the pool. Interested to see what other's schedules look like - saw Fred had 3 workouts yesterday! |
| 2011-01-06 8:16 AM in reply to: #3256949 |
| Master 1411 Lexington, KY | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! Wishing you well with your return to (more) running Kathy. |
| 2011-01-06 8:23 AM in reply to: #3256949 |
| Master 1411 Lexington, KY | Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! My work is task/project oriented, not based on hours, so my schedule is flexible right now. Because of that, my workouts fall at different times based on factors like meetings, deadlines, kids, etc. I've never been a morning person, so I try to avoid am workouts, especially running. I prefer to work in the am. I'll start doing the am workouts again (for longer rides) when summer gets here. Unfortunately, that's going to be awhile... |
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