Brian and the Tri Tarts Group - Full (Page 19)

I like the new avatar a lot!

I am not 100% certain about the HR, but do you sense you were getting any interference from it or another HRM in the area? Sometimes that happens to me.  It could also mean you are not fully recovered from your half marathon which really wasn't that long ago, not even a week!  Racing is taxing. 

Your LT probably hasn't changed much, as it's largely determined by genetics.  However, the pace your run at LT has probably gotten quicker.      It's not a test you want to do too often.  2X per year is the most you'd want to do.  Once a year for each the bike and run is probably fine.

Regarding the HR during your brick yesterday...  I'm not really sure...  How did you feel?  Was your breathing really labored?  Could be an anomoly as measured HR can be misleading sometimes, especially if the perceived effort was EZ.  Try it again next week (bike then run); however, start the run at a slower pace and work up to your intended speed, paying attention to your breathing rate and perceived effort.  Potentially something you should ask your doctor.

Brian (and All)

Here is my can of worms topic for the weekend.....All this talk about HR and testing raises a question for me.  While I am mindful of HR during various work outs and races, I am usually not a slave to it.  I know that being tired, dehydrated, terrain or weather  can affect it one way or another.  It seems like triathletes on this forum spend a lot more time accumulating minutes in certain zones versus running/biking to a pace and monitoring HR.  What do you see as the main benefit of that? I think I made the mistake of running to an HR in my last race because of this mindset and it may have inhibited my performance to some degree. 

Enlighten me

Suzy

Lots of debate on this in the forums.  I think for an experienced runner like you, its best to use HR as a monitor and not be a slave to it.  Your probably so "in touch" with your body as you run, that you can pretty much nail any race pace you set out to do.  A coach on this site, Jorge (amiine) has a similar perspective as you in regard to HR training and racing.

I think for beginners, HR training and racing can be a big help.  For training, to keep us from over-extending ourselves and getting the right "mix" of training paces.  For racing, to pace unfamilar race-distances.

I think HR training has been good for me.  Without it, I think I was running too hard and biking too easy during training.  For racing (runs), the HR monitor actually helped me race harder, knowing that I could push very close to LT for a half-marathon.  I had a very good experience racing that fall 1/2 marathon and intend to use it again on 4/6; but pushing closer to LT earlier in the race.

You are probably right regarding experience, because I feel much less knowledgeable about HR and pacing on the bike. On the trainer, my legs will fatigue/burn before my HR approaches even EZ run pace which is in the low to mid 140s. 

I have an LT test in my plans for May to try to become more educated, but I still think I will stick to a combination of PE and HR.

PS I checked Amine's logs. His ez pace cracks me up, 6:44?

I pm'ed you with an idea although you would need to order it asap to test it out before your race.

Are you asking because you are afraid you might be overdoing it and not following your plan?  If so, I don't think you will find your body rebelling to a few easy miles every day.  I agree it is important to get used to those pedals before racing.  Just make sure you keep the miles easy and it possible, the terrain flat.

Yeah, that's exactly why I'm asking.  I just need to get used to the pedals and I feel like with what I'm doing currently, it's never going to really happen.  By the end of yesterday's ride, I felt so much better on them than I did at the start.  I'd hate to wait like another week for another chance to ride on them again, I feel like I might lose the confidence I built up.

Suzy,

Thanks for the pm on the Infinit, that's what someone else advised me on... Hard to make choices without reading everything each of these companies puts out to promote their brand and then it's like any other purchase where you have to sort out the claims from reality and try things out.  But having 2 people say this works well on their stomach is better than blindly reading some big name guy (getting paid big bucks) to advertise some product I guess.

Kimmi,

Go ahead and ride a small amount easy on that bike as much as possible.  You need to be comfortable getting in and out of the pedals as well as how the bike handles when you change gears, turn, deal with rough patches of road (etcetera)

I still think you are using too low a MHR.  When I got my metabolic testing done, my AT (which from reading is the same as the LT calculation) was around 192.  I can't believe that mine would be higher than yours because you are in much better fitness and can much more than I can.  

On the RHR - you should be getting a good estimate.  When I got my testing done, I fell asleep and they actually removed that info.  As that is a basal reading, not the resting reading.  You don't actually want to fall asleep, just be very relaxed.   

Careful with the MHR thing.  It's something you should rarely, if ever, try to test.  In fact, I've never figured mine out.  It's probably in the 180's, but really isn't too important to know, if you figure our your LTHR (lactate threshold heart rate).

The LTHR is such an interesting thing.  I can actually feel good running just a few beats below LTHR for a half-marathon.  However, when you hit it; you're breathing gets labored, the legs start burning and you know it'll be a matter of minutes that your body will say "no mas."  My LTHR is about 169.  I ran the middle of my last 1/2M at about 165-168 and still felt good.  The last three miles, I PUSHED and got my HR to 170-171.  Man, my heart was pounding, legs burning... It was all I could do mentally to "hold on."  The difference of only a few beats per minute and lactic acid starts building up, ventalation rate jumps, you FEEL your heart beating, legs burning.  You just know.  It's really a transition point.  Here's that chart again to see what I'm talking about...

(Cleveland Half-marathon Pace and HR Chart.jpg)

Interesting that your LTHR is so low.  Is that genetics or that you've HR trained your way to a low LT?  In other words, if I keep training w/ HR and losing weight, will mine drop?  I thought it would increase, meaning I could work at higher HRs w/o feeling the burn.  I thought it had a lot more to do with fitness than I guess it does.  Like at 170, I feel great.  I can run and run on it, the only limiter being that at my fitness level, after a while my HR starts to go up and up for the same pace and I hit that magic cross over where I feel like I can't go on. 

Once you figure out your LT, it gets pretty easy.  Just plug that into your BT HR zones.

I feel sort of comfortable in my low-mid Z4 (162-165bpm), but at 167-169 things get very tough.  That's the thing about LT.  It really is a "threshold."

The other thing is that you have been consistenty (when not battling pnumonia) training your aerobic system 9 hours per week for several months.  That's A LOT by any standard.  With that kind of base, you can expect to get pretty comfortable training in the low Z4 range.  That does not mean you should train harder all the time now.  However, with that strong base, and if you have some desire to get faster, you could introduce some faster pace intervals.

For the bike; you could try some 2-4 minute intervals, where you get to upper Z4 to lower Z5 with equal recovery times between.  Remember though, that your Bike LTHR will be different (prob 5-10bpm slower) than your run LT.  Something like...

• 10-15 minute warm-up
• 4-6 X 3' Z4/5 with 3' recoveries, keeping cadence above 90rpm
• 10-15 minute cool-down

Don't do this more than once a week.

Be more cautious increasing run intensity (to avoid injury).  You still have a lot to gain by simply running more and working on that base.  Perhaps start with five, work up to ten, 30 second strides (Z4) with 2 minute recoveries.  Then begin working in a weekly tempo (Z3/Z4) run.  Start with one mile and add 0.5 mile per week to the tempo run (1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5).  Be sure to warm-up (Z1/Z2) and cool down at least 10 minutes each on tempo runs.

I just worked up to a 6mi tempo run, which is about as long as most people would want to go.  Beyond 6mi, marathoners work on their marathon pace (MP) runs, which are typically Z3 and can be as long as 16mi.  No thanks! 

Just a "little" something to think about...

There's just so much "stuff" going on that fitness is just part of the equation.  Age and genetic make-up are big factors dictating LTHR.  Some very fit and faster people may have LTHR much lower than me.  LTHR, nor MHR just aren't great indicators of fitness.  Someone may have a lower LTHR, but greater stroke volume (mL of blood pumped per stroke), higher red blood cell count and greater capillary development in their leg muscles sending more oxygen to their legs, keeping lactic acid build-up at bay more efficiently than me.  Now, how fast one can run at their LTHR is a good indicator.

As you train, loose weight, get more fit, etc... your LTHR may or may not drop.  However, you will begin to run faster at the same HR.  For example, my running LTHR may have always been about 169bpm.  However, two years ago, my running pace at 169bpm was about 8:45/mi.  Now it's about 7:10/mi.  So, my LTHR hasn't changed, but my capillaries carrying blood to and from my leg muscles are more developed, my heart is stronger (greater stroke volume), perhaps I'm also carrying more oxygen through higher red blood cell count, hemoglobin levels.  These "adaptations" occur through years (to a smaller degree months) of consistent training, BELOW our LTHR.  The ability to move legs faster, clear lactic acid faster and deal with the pain better is gained through Z4 and Z5 training, which I argue will get me from 7:10's to 6:50's per mile.  Notice how much more is gained, early in one's career, working on the "base" at the lower intensity zones...

Just one guy's opinion, who is not a coach nor a doctor, nor very experienced....

For the record, lots of people, like Suzy have trained very effectively without a HRM.  She basically got in tune with her body from, guess what?... Lots of running.  She probably doesn't need a HRM to tell her that she's approaching, at or above her LTHR.  She feels the lactic acid building, hears her breathing rate increase, senses the higher intensity and corresponding fatigue.  She KNOWS her Z2 pace, marathon pace and threshold pace without a HRM.

Just because you don't know exactly what your LTHR is, doesn't mean you can't train smartly and incorporate various paces in your training.  Honestly, for 30 second strides, a HRM will be of know use as your HR lags that effort and by the time it catches up, your 30 second stride is over.  For strides, just go run at a comfortable pace and throw in some 30 second stretches where you run hard, but controlled and recover for 2 minutes after each one.  You will develop neuromuscular adaptations and begin to train your body to clear lactic acid more efficiently.  The same goes for hill repeats or "spin-ups" on the bike.

I don't know why I'm acting like such a coach today...  I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. 

Suzy, please reign me in if I'm steering our group astray...

Brian, I posted this on your blog but I'll post it again here for total group input:

How do I really train for swimming?  My plan right now just says warm up/x yards workout/cool down.  So that's pretty much what I do. Sometimes I get funky with it and do sets of 50s or 100s.  That's just to mix it up so I'm not doing the same thing all the time.  I saw the 0 to one mile plan on here and am thinking about adding that, but not sure if that's a good idea b/c I am so slow.  I'm reading TI (borrowed!) and waiting on the Freestyle made Easy DVD.  I'm a visual person, so seeing drills will help me a lot more than reading about them will. But I"m a dork and reading helps me understand the mechanics behind it.  Anyway, what should I do at the pool? Should I do warm up (as per the plan), drills, prescribed distance, cool down?  Every day or should I keep my random sets?  Is there a swim program I should add into training, now that I'm comfortably, albeit slowly, swimming a quarter mile consistently?