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2012-09-25 3:46 PM
in reply to: #4427244

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Subject: RE: Book of Mormon - the musical, not the book
bluebike - 2012-09-25 3:33 PM

jmk-brooklyn - 2012-09-25 1:18 PM
bluebike - 2012-09-25 2:25 PM
ChrisM - 2012-09-25 11:46 AM

bluebike - 2012-09-25 11:25 AM To be clear.  I am not suggesting that my religion should not be attacked and am fully supportive of free speech - even when it is offensive.  As noted above the official statement from our church regarding BOMtheMusical was quite representative of the 'turn the other cheek' philosophy.  What I disagree with is when politicians, and liberals in particular in this case, find it acceptable to laud as wonderful a play that is slanderous, while denouncing a film as deplorable because it is slanderous.  Using Obamas words "To be credible, those who condem that slander must also condem the hate we see when the image of Jesus Christ is desecrated"  But.... I don't hear that from him.  He is not credible nor are those who chuckle at BOM the musical and then denounce that preacher for burning the Quaran or condem this new anti muslim film for slandering the Muslim faith.  Either take the high road and denounce all hateful speech, or be a hypocrite and say I can mock when convient and be offended when it suits me. 

Interesting Question - If it is not "speech" that has been constrained to some extent or another by the SCOTUS (i.e., fighting words), for which there may be a reasonable argument that it should be curtailed or at the very least, one may not have full rights, what is "hateful speech"?  Speech that the listener is offended by?  All speech that denounces another's religion?  sex? Is the Book of Mormon "hate speech"?   Every line?  if not, which lines? 

ETA - to be clear, I am a little confused.  If it's hate speech, but you still support one's right to say it....  that seems inconsistent to me

I've got absolutely no problem with a Mormon, or anyone else, denouncing the play as insulting.  I would assume that those that don't like it have seen it in order to comment on whether they are offended or not.  But, you know what they say about assuming.... 

But just because someone is insulted is not sufficient, in my mind, anyway, to foreclose an entire avenue of speech.  Cartoonists have been threatened merely for depicting Mohammed, whether in compromising positions or not, simply because it is believed that merely portraying their prophet is wrong.  Is that where we want to go?

Granted, I am no Mormon scholar, but from my viewing of the play, the authors merely stated the historical bases for the Mormon religion (yes, there was some mocking, but it really was more about individuals than the religion itself).  Listen, all religions have.... odd...  origination stories.  Tablets on the mount???   parting of the seas???   come one....   So, that I can't get on board with the golden plate stuff and find it rather amusing, is that hate speech?  I feel the same way about most of the stories in the bible, and the new testament.  If I make a joke about Catholics,,,,,  hate speech?

We need a clear line, not just where someone thinks it should be based on their personal beliefs. 

Chris I am not debating free speech.  We all support free speech.  It is not inconsistent to support all forms of free speech and the rights of individuals to say whatever they want, or burn what ever book, or write whatever play.  What I am discussing is the inconsistancy of individual behavior... like when Hillary Clinton CHEERED a slanderous play one day, and condems a slanderous movie the next.  The film makers had the right to make their anti-muslim film and Hillary was a hypocrite to condem it having herself participated in mocking a prophet.  

So there is a new play out by Trey Parker and the southpark crew... its called "Lets throw all the Jews down a well"  Its a funny heartwarming send up of Judiasim and focuses on how the hollocost was a lie.  Would you buy a ticket or be seen cheering for that in public?? 

We can allow all forms of free speech in our country, AND at the same time we can choose to reject forms of speech that we as individuals find vulgar or coarse or hateful.  I reject as hateful the Book of Moron play... so I will not pay to see it...(I won't argue that it should be abolished or that they didn't have the constitutional right to create it) and by extension I will not pay to see movies or plays or buy books whose purpose is to tear down other religions. 

There’s a difference between satire and debasement. That line might be different for different people. Some Hindus might find the character of Apu in the Simpsons very offensive, but I suspect that most recognize it as good-natured humor. Same with South Park, Monty Python, etc. Part of the problem with this country is that everybody gets outraged about everything. If you can’t see the difference between a play intended to be satiric (whether or not you personally find it funny) and a movie trailer intendded to offend Muslims, I don’t really know what to tell you. And if you find it offensive, then you're entitled to your opinion and certainly don't need to go and see it. But ask yourself: do you really want to get to a place in our society where no art is allowed to portray subjects that might offend someone? Art is supposed to provoke. That is its purpose, whether it's a painting of waterlillies or a Nan Goldin photograph.

Soooo missing the point.  I never said or inferred that speech should be curtailed... even when I find it offensive. 



Ok, I guess I missed it then. It sounds like you're equating Book of Mormon and this anti-muslim trailer, since you called them both "hate speech".


2012-09-25 3:49 PM
in reply to: #4427265

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Subject: RE: Book of Mormon - the musical, not the book
jmk-brooklyn - 2012-09-25 1:46 PM
bluebike - 2012-09-25 3:33 PM
jmk-brooklyn - 2012-09-25 1:18 PM
bluebike - 2012-09-25 2:25 PM
ChrisM - 2012-09-25 11:46 AM

bluebike - 2012-09-25 11:25 AM To be clear.  I am not suggesting that my religion should not be attacked and am fully supportive of free speech - even when it is offensive.  As noted above the official statement from our church regarding BOMtheMusical was quite representative of the 'turn the other cheek' philosophy.  What I disagree with is when politicians, and liberals in particular in this case, find it acceptable to laud as wonderful a play that is slanderous, while denouncing a film as deplorable because it is slanderous.  Using Obamas words "To be credible, those who condem that slander must also condem the hate we see when the image of Jesus Christ is desecrated"  But.... I don't hear that from him.  He is not credible nor are those who chuckle at BOM the musical and then denounce that preacher for burning the Quaran or condem this new anti muslim film for slandering the Muslim faith.  Either take the high road and denounce all hateful speech, or be a hypocrite and say I can mock when convient and be offended when it suits me. 

Interesting Question - If it is not "speech" that has been constrained to some extent or another by the SCOTUS (i.e., fighting words), for which there may be a reasonable argument that it should be curtailed or at the very least, one may not have full rights, what is "hateful speech"?  Speech that the listener is offended by?  All speech that denounces another's religion?  sex? Is the Book of Mormon "hate speech"?   Every line?  if not, which lines? 

ETA - to be clear, I am a little confused.  If it's hate speech, but you still support one's right to say it....  that seems inconsistent to me

I've got absolutely no problem with a Mormon, or anyone else, denouncing the play as insulting.  I would assume that those that don't like it have seen it in order to comment on whether they are offended or not.  But, you know what they say about assuming.... 

But just because someone is insulted is not sufficient, in my mind, anyway, to foreclose an entire avenue of speech.  Cartoonists have been threatened merely for depicting Mohammed, whether in compromising positions or not, simply because it is believed that merely portraying their prophet is wrong.  Is that where we want to go?

Granted, I am no Mormon scholar, but from my viewing of the play, the authors merely stated the historical bases for the Mormon religion (yes, there was some mocking, but it really was more about individuals than the religion itself).  Listen, all religions have.... odd...  origination stories.  Tablets on the mount???   parting of the seas???   come one....   So, that I can't get on board with the golden plate stuff and find it rather amusing, is that hate speech?  I feel the same way about most of the stories in the bible, and the new testament.  If I make a joke about Catholics,,,,,  hate speech?

We need a clear line, not just where someone thinks it should be based on their personal beliefs. 

Chris I am not debating free speech.  We all support free speech.  It is not inconsistent to support all forms of free speech and the rights of individuals to say whatever they want, or burn what ever book, or write whatever play.  What I am discussing is the inconsistancy of individual behavior... like when Hillary Clinton CHEERED a slanderous play one day, and condems a slanderous movie the next.  The film makers had the right to make their anti-muslim film and Hillary was a hypocrite to condem it having herself participated in mocking a prophet.  

So there is a new play out by Trey Parker and the southpark crew... its called "Lets throw all the Jews down a well"  Its a funny heartwarming send up of Judiasim and focuses on how the hollocost was a lie.  Would you buy a ticket or be seen cheering for that in public?? 

We can allow all forms of free speech in our country, AND at the same time we can choose to reject forms of speech that we as individuals find vulgar or coarse or hateful.  I reject as hateful the Book of Moron play... so I will not pay to see it...(I won't argue that it should be abolished or that they didn't have the constitutional right to create it) and by extension I will not pay to see movies or plays or buy books whose purpose is to tear down other religions. 

There’s a difference between satire and debasement. That line might be different for different people. Some Hindus might find the character of Apu in the Simpsons very offensive, but I suspect that most recognize it as good-natured humor. Same with South Park, Monty Python, etc. Part of the problem with this country is that everybody gets outraged about everything. If you can’t see the difference between a play intended to be satiric (whether or not you personally find it funny) and a movie trailer intendded to offend Muslims, I don’t really know what to tell you. And if you find it offensive, then you're entitled to your opinion and certainly don't need to go and see it. But ask yourself: do you really want to get to a place in our society where no art is allowed to portray subjects that might offend someone? Art is supposed to provoke. That is its purpose, whether it's a painting of waterlillies or a Nan Goldin photograph.

Soooo missing the point.  I never said or inferred that speech should be curtailed... even when I find it offensive. 

Ok, I guess I missed it then. It sounds like you're equating Book of Mormon and this anti-muslim trailer, since you called them both "hate speech".

That's where I was getting caught up as well, but I think I understand the point is more about the apparent hypocrisy of the current administration in its responses to BOM and the muslim movie.  TO do that, one has to assume that they are equal.

Personally, I do not think they are, but I've only seen BOM and not the other one, so I've really no basis to make the comparison.  But neither does anyone else who has not seen both.  It's fine to say you wouldn't pay to see it, but not sure how anyone can conclude it's hate speech without actually hearing it? 

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