Teacher suspended for giving a zero grade for zero work (Page 2)

Same young man threw a fit and struck my wife later in the year. This time the parents claimed racism on my wife's part. He was removed from her class permanently and given to another teacher. He felt free to strike his new teacher a few weeks later as well. These were second graders.

That's all great in theory... but in reality you don't think everyone is being held accountable?

Those that are marginal, or failing to make it, or do the work... do you really think they are going to be successful in life without any work?  No, they are going to be marginal or failing to make it for the rest of their life. Action, reaction. Perhaps the school can do something different to change that... but the fact is the kid will be getting exactly what he earned... if he is just a slacker.

So then you give the child a zero for zero work... for those same kids we are talking about... do you honestly think that is going to change one thing in their life... that somehow they are going to learn a very important life lesson and do things differently?  Uhhh, no. They will continue to do exactly what they are doing. Maybe we don't have to condone it, but it won't change anything. Slackers will be slackers right?

As far as the kids that are working and earning grades being resentful for others getting something for nothing... welcome to the real world. Looks like they are learning valuable life lessons. People get over every day while I bust my hump... does that change anything for me... not one bit. I do what I do because that is how I want to live my life. I am where I am because I have worked hard. I have what I have because I earned it and that is important to me.

So it seems you can argue theory... and I'm not exactly sure what needs to be done because I am not an expert at educating marginal or failing students with bleak futures ahead of them... but it looks to me that the school is mimicking life just fine... and isn't that what school is for... preparing kids for life?

cgregg - 2012-06-05 9:22 AM

but in reality you don't think everyone is being held accountable?

If they aren't getting graded for the work they haven't done, then absolutely not - they are not being held accountable. How can you think they are being held accountable if when they don't do the work they're told "that's ok, we won't grade you on that"??

do you really think they are going to be successful in life without any work? No, they are going to be marginal or failing to make it for the rest of their life.

Absolutely correct. So why choose to set a precedent for them that teaches them at an early age that doing no work will let you get by?

So then you give the child a zero for zero work... for those same kids we are talking about... do you honestly think that is going to change one thing in their life... that somehow they are going to learn a very important life lesson and do things differently? Uhhh, no. They will continue to do exactly what they are doing. Maybe we don't have to condone it, but it won't change anything. Slackers will be slackers right?

Again - absolutely correct, IMO. So why choose to reinforce the bad behavior by giving it a pass?

As far as the kids that are working and earning grades being resentful for others getting something for nothing... welcome to the real world. Looks like they are learning valuable life lessons. People get over every day while I bust my hump... does that change anything for me... not one bit.

Yup, if there was ever something we should hold in esteem as an example to teach the kids, that's the one! I'm not an expert in education, either, but I know what I do and don't agree with - and I'll never agree with giving people a pass for slacking. It seems to be the American Way these days, but I'll never agree with it. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Short term they are getting a grade for doing work they didn't do, long term they are getting exactly what they earned. So they pass them through the system, they are not getting "rewarded". They are now the proud owner of a sucky adult life.

I get what you are saying. I understand the principle. It is a bit hard to defend... but the big picture... meh.

As far as your sarcasm I don't get it... you don't take pride in how you live your life, in how your conduct yourself, in what you have accomplished through hard work? If not, feel free to quit working and join the sweet life on welfare and government housing. I hear it's a real hoot.

Oops!!! My bad! Dock me points.

Well, the flip side would seem to be true as well. If the kid averaged 63% on the work he turned in, what reason is there to believe that he grasps the concepts better than what his grade reflects?

So, is the issue that grades should reflect work done, or that grades should reflect mastery of material? I think the answer to that question resolves whether the policy makes sense or not.

(I've combined two posts here)

The Edmonton Journal is the newspaper in Edmonton Canada, where the OP story links, and where all of this takes place. I don't know the specific teachers either, but it seems to me that being teachers in the area where this is all happening, their observations may be of some use. Especially the first teacher in my link, who clearly indicates a change of view from "Anti-no-zero" to pro. 

As for the "slackers will be slackers", well, isn't the purpose of school in part to help people improve themselves? If giving zeros doesn't change the slackers, why not change tactics?

Again, Edmonton is in Canada. It is actually a whole different country than America. They are probably too polite to point that out, but since I am a crass American, I'll do it for them...

We have a winner. A huge debate in education now is grading. What do we use to determine a grade? Is it mastery of skills/content or is it behavior? Is turning in homework skill or behavior? How do we accurately assess skill?

I posed this question to my 9th grade English classes and they couldn't come up with much either. Most agreed that a grade should reflect what a student knows, but how to accurately measure that is unclear.

It's all good.... there will always be scavengers in this world and those willing to live off of others. I am not one of those and I'm not bothered by, or resentful of those that do.

For those that are truly challenged, or have a hard time in school... those are the ones that really need the help and I will leave that up to the experts on how to help them the best.

Those that are lazy or have learned how not to work by watching their parents 16 hours a day for their whole life... well, that's not something I can change. People have a way of accepting their fates, or changing it if they don't like it. In this context I'm not really bothered by it.

WOW!!

At the start of this last school year, my son failed to turn in a couple of homework assignments, (he's completing 4th grade so a long way from coming out of high school), he was given zero as his grade, it was registered in his reports, I also spoke with the teacher and had the assignments sent home so I could make sure he completed them even though they were passed and would not be graded. 

I think this was the right approach by the school.....the rest of the year, he did not miss an assignment!(now at the end of the year, he has his passing grade, but those missed assignments are still there when you look at his report).

I just don't sign up to the approach of not zero grading for missed assignments, if you're able to hit A grades but only do half the work, should you get an A or a C? based on the fact you have done half the work etc.  Equally, if you're capable of the C but don't turn in work you're not getting your C. IMO.

I read the open letter form the super and whilst I agree the approach should be to work with kids and understand the reasons behind failing to turn in a paper and help them, I still think missing an assignment should be recorded, graded as a fail/zero and dealt with accordingly. 

If we are going to miss the assignments we know we'll fail we could all have 4.0 GPA!!

When I was a senior in high school, I chose not to do the homework in my math class.  It resulted in my grade being dropped from an A to a B since the homework was worth 1 full grade.  My feeling at the time was that homework in Math was only necessary if you didn't get the concept.  I never missed a day of school and my grades on the tests were either perfect scores or -1 pt which was usually from not showing my work completely.  In the end, I made a deal with the teacher that if I aced his final, he would give me the A since I demonstrated that I had learned what he set out to teach.  I got my A.

Now, as a parent, I have done the same thing with my son that you did with yours.  What a switch.    My sister also follows the same approach.  When her son was in 7th grade he didn't get a high enough grade to get into the next level of math because he refused to do his homework.  She warned him, but she also wasn't going to micro manage.  He had to repeat the same math class, with the same teacher in 8th grade, but he learned his lesson. Just got his SAT scores and he got a perfect score on the math section and my sister has never had to ride him about his homework.

The big issue is that grading should be provided in advance and in writing - as well as compliant to district policy and relevant laws.

There are no absolutes in this realm, and it needs to be based on the class.

On one hand, a basic skills class for at-risk youth should focus solely on mastery of the content.

However, I would not want to apply that standard to a college-prep science lab class.

In the case of the latter, not only do you need to understand the concepts, but the ability to perform industry expectations of process and format is just as legitimate of a grading issue.

Again, this is all moot, because I really think the story involves at least one jerk trying to make a point, and there are more critical points not reported.