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Sex education for middle schoolers (Page 2)
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 2005-10-25 5:56 PM in reply to: #272142 |
Expert 615   Brisbane |  Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolersI can see the school point because so many kids don't have such a relationship with their parents as you obviously do with yours. They should have informed you first in my opinion they were intending to do this instead of an "STD Bombing campaign" Is George W your principal? |
| 2005-10-26 6:30 AM in reply to: #272395 |
Giver 18427    | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers Say you had a fire escape ladder in your house becaue you lived in a two story, and if there were a fire you want your kids to be able to get out safely. Do you just lock the ladder up and then if there's a fire, you say, "here kids, get out of the window"? No, you show them how to use it so they don't get hurt when they have to use it. You hope there's never a fire so they never have to use it, but it's always good to have a safety net. You also teach them that it isn't a toy, and shouldn't be played with with their friends. You'd of course also teach them about how to prevent fires, and maybe, if one started, how to put it out before it got so big the ladder had to be used. But you can teach and educate a preach all you want, but the truth is kids are kids and sometimes fires start. It happens. Right? So of course people are free to believe what they want. But who could argue successfully that a fire ladder is wrong? It's better to die in a fire, I guess. dontracy - 2005-10-25 5:45 PM Tracey, some parents will want to teach their kids that it's wrong to use condoms in the first place. So your example seems to pull the rug of authority out from under those parents. A demonstration like the one you went through seems to sanction condom use. That, in turn, may create a division within a child who must decide between the teaching of the school system and the teaching of their parents. So it seems not only unfair to the parents but to the child as well. If parents themselves want to take their children swimming with a condom on their head, I've got no problem.  |
| 2005-10-26 7:57 AM in reply to: #272142 |
Veteran 302 Virginia | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers My wife and I teach a sex ed course through our chruch. It is geared towards middle schoolers (6th - 8th grades). We've done it for 12 years. We're even in the development phases of a followup program for high schoolers. We've done it at several churches in the area. Sixth grade is a good age to begin the education. We do all of those things that make you uneasy, including opening condoms, spermicides, tampons, etc. We often get questions about why the kids should go through our program when it is taught in the schools. The reasons are pretty good: first, we can talk about subjects that are out of bounds at the schools (yes, they do not talk about some things) and two, everything the students do in the program, we do with the parents. Our program is designed to get the students and parents talking about the subject. Also, by doing it in the church, the kids know we are not giving them permission to engage in inappropriate activities. Bettylou, I think you should use this opportunity to expand on the conversation of sex with your child. You may be able to influence what the school is doing, maybe not. The most important thing is that you get the conversation going with your child. Here's a tip I give parents: If you want to talk about this subject a great time is in the car while driving and at night. That way the child doesn't have to make eye contact and can not escape. |
| 2005-10-26 9:12 AM in reply to: #272541 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers run4yrlif - Say you had a fire escape ladder in your house becaue you lived in a two story, and if there were a fire you want your kids to be able to get out safely. I take your point. Here's how I've answered it in my own family. My 15yo step-son comes up to me and says, "I know you think I should not have sex until marriage, but if I did would you want me to use a condom?" Well, first thing is my wife leaves the room to call his girlfriend's mom. Second thing is, I think long and hard and make another cup of tea. Then I say, "You're asking the wrong question. It's not whether or not you should use a condom. The question is what is your sexuality inteded for? Is it to get your rocks off on Saturday night, or was is created for something bigger than that?" So then we go into a long and late into the night discussion about the meaning of marriage and sex. My intention was not to tell him what he couldn't do, but rather to paint a picture of what he ought to do and to paint it with rich enough colors so that he could see the beauty in it. Now I realize that not everyone is going to appreciate my painting. The problem I have with certain sex education courses in public schools is that they are presenting a different painting all together. In my view, it is one that lacks color and depth. It's a shallow depiction of human sexuality. And I don't think it's the place of a public school to do this. It's not a neutral painting that they are presenting. It's an alternative one. I've yet to hear of a public school course that teaches about the depth of beauty in a chaste marriage, one that forgoes a contraceptive mentality. You may say that this is a religious issue, and you may be right. But if you hold such a view, then all of the alternative lifestyles also look like religious ones, even if they come from the religion of secular humanism. So there's a point here where a course in biology turns into a course in religion. I don't think that is appropriate in a public school. Edited by dontracy 2005-10-26 9:13 AM |
| 2005-10-26 9:23 AM in reply to: #272638 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers Don. I really liie your obviously well thought out response. I don't have a problem with condoms, but I also have a 5 yo daughter. So my thinking is when I have the conversation you had with your daughter, I'm going to say something like no matter how caught up you are in the heat of the moment, if you can think "condom" you can also think "no." Obviously what you're talking about is never, ever going to be taught in schools. If sex is discussed, it's going to be discussed in the context of biology, and not in the context of love. And that's probably how it should be. Goes into the teaching of values thing you mentioned earlier. But I would so much hope my daughter at least first thinks "condom." If nothing else. As an aside, I've heard anecdotally that some women carry condoms to protect themselves if they are raped. The thought is that is they are attacted, they ask the guy to put it on. One of the possible outcomes of doing so, is that the guy gets flustered and runs away. Or else he puts it on, or maybe not. But better than not having it. dontracy - 2005-10-26 9:12 AM run4yrlif - Say you had a fire escape ladder in your house becaue you lived in a two story, and if there were a fire you want your kids to be able to get out safely. I take your point. Here's how I've answered it in my own family. My 15yo step-son comes up to me and says, "I know you think I should not have sex until marriage, but if I did would you want me to use a condom?" Well, first thing is my wife leaves the room to call his girlfriend's mom. Second thing is, I think long and hard and make another cup of tea. Then I say, "You're asking the wrong question. It's not whether or not you should use a condom. The question is what is your sexuality inteded for? Is it to get your rocks off on Saturday night, or was is created for something bigger than that?" So then we go into a long and late into the night discussion about the meaning of marriage and sex. My intention was not to tell him what he couldn't do, but rather to paint a picture of what he ought to do and to paint it with rich enough colors so that he could see the beauty in it. Now I realize that not everyone is going to appreciate my painting. The problem I have with certain sex education courses in public schools is that they are presenting a different painting all together. In my view, it is one that lacks color and depth. It's a shallow depiction of human sexuality. And I don't think it's the place of a public school to do this. It's not a neutral painting that they are presenting. It's an alternative one. I've yet to hear of a public school course that teaches about the depth of beauty in a chaste marriage, one that forgoes a contraceptive mentality. You may say that this is a religious issue, and you may be right. But if you hold such a view, then all of the alternative lifestyles also look like religious ones, even if they come from the religion of secular humanism. So there's a point here where a course in biology turns into a course in religion. I don't think that is appropriate in a public school. |
| 2005-10-26 9:35 AM in reply to: #272142 |
Queen BTich 12411 , | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers From a much younger perspective: I'm not going to go into depth about religion or what sex means to different people. However, young people are going to have sex. You can try to paint whatever picture you like, but it will happen. My parents had very different views on sex, my dad-they're going to do it, be safe and smart. My mom: You're catholic, its wrong, not until marraige. I'm happy I could see both sides of the equation and now I have formed my own opinions about the subject. I realize they might change as I get older, but listen to someone who was there not too long ago: THEIR FRIENDS DO IT. THEY'RE GOING TO ONE DAY. IT WILL HAPPEN, AND PROBABLY AT A YOUNGER AGE THAN THEY SHOULD. Teach them to make intelligent decisions for themselves and you might be suprised how much they end up listening to you. I look at my friends who got pregnant, dropped out of school, drugs, etc. Those people are the ones whose parents sheltered them. I would drink occasionally, steal road signs, do usual high school pranks. I made good grades, graduated college early and think I'm came out ok (I know this is scaring some of you and you don't believe me, but its true). I have thanked both my parents recently for the wonderful way they raised me, I have a good head on my shoulders and that came from learning from my own mistakes. |
| 2005-10-26 9:52 AM in reply to: #272142 |
| Regular 178 Mound, MN | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers So let me get this straight, they think the kids are messing around, so the solution is to hand them a memo? If they insisted on the memo, the better option would have been a memo to the parents, with some suggestions on having a discussion with their kids. No you are not over-reacting. I would be in the front row at the next school board meeting! Good luck, Jay |
| 2005-10-26 11:21 AM in reply to: #272652 |
Got Wahoo? 5423 San Antonio | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers It's not an issue that will be agreed on. Don, you're very thoughtful and well reasoned and I appreciate the way you present your views. However, you have to realize that the norm is not so talented at painting A larger problem that touches on this is that there is a "movement" today, and in all honesty, has always existed in one for or another in this puritanical society, that is restricting information to the parents and adults in general. HPV was mentioned earlier. I have well educated friends who have no idea what it is, not to mention its relationship is with cervical cancer - or that most Americans have herpes - or that there is more than one strain of herpes, for that matter Sex, aside from dropping the kids of at the pool and maybe eating, is one of our most driving biological imperatives. It's going to happen. To purposefully create a society in which children grow up into ignorant adults for some type of heavenly reward is the height of idiocy. STD's have an effect on all of society. We all suffer because of the ignorance perpetuated in the name of abstinence only education. I'm not talking about the ability to have sex in a care free manner, but in terms of societal cost, blood donor programs, stigma and death. You know someone, probably many someones, who has and is suffering from this It really drives me crazy that sex has become a pulpit for the religious right to view it as a rallying cry against the depravity of sex and sin. There is a moral haughtiness that is assumed and it is insidiously implied that it is the godless masses who suffer from this and that if only they had found god and abstained, all would be well. That if you contract something, you have failed your faith and sin has it's just rewards. "Repent and seek forgiveness!" I want to be clear: this is the IMPLICATION that is hoisted onto our nations young. Sex has nothing more to do with sin than any other action that is abused. And then it is a symptom, not a cause. I find it appalling that something so wonderful has been corrupted into guilt, sin and godly judgment, then morphed into a bizarre puzzle where a child, who can't figure out how to wipe their feet, is supposed to reconcile what their body, their friends, their church, their parents, not to mention society in general, is telling them to do. Sex and it's direct body to body contact just happens to be one of the most immediate ways to pass disease - it has nothing to do with the nature of the act and I wish this backward-assed society would get over it.
End pontification. |
| 2005-10-26 11:41 AM in reply to: #272707 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers Totally agree with what welshy said. Ignorance is never the answer. Teach kids the issue. Present your views. Present other views. Talk about why you think the way you do. Kids are smart, and if given good information will generally make good decisions. As parents, that's all we can ask for. At least IMO. |
| 2005-10-26 11:41 AM in reply to: #272707 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers tmwelshy - HPV was mentioned earlier. I have well educated friends who have no idea what it is, not to mention its relationship is with cervical cancer HPV is a good case in point. From what I read, there have been no consistent studies that have shown codoms to be effective in preventing the spread of HPV. Do condoms contain warning labels that this is the case? If not, than it may be that condom use itself is contributing to the spread of HPV by giving people a false sense of security. The fact is that the increase in the spread of STD's runs concurrent with the increase in the use of contraceptives. I think promoting a contraceptive mentality among teenagers only adds to the problem. Here are some more sad statistics: (34993360.gif) (44566658.gif) (34168074.gif) (18256594.gif) (60500146.gif) Attachments ---------------- 34993360.gif (7KB - 1 downloads) 44566658.gif (7KB - 3 downloads) 34168074.gif (6KB - 2 downloads) 18256594.gif (7KB - 2 downloads) 60500146.gif (7KB - 2 downloads) |
| 2005-10-26 11:48 AM in reply to: #272726 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers Those stats only show correlations, and not cause-and-effect relationships. dontracy - 2005-10-26 11:41 AM tmwelshy - HPV was mentioned earlier. I have well educated friends who have no idea what it is, not to mention its relationship is with cervical cancer HPV is a good case in point. From what I read, there have been no consistent studies that have shown codoms to be effective in preventing the spread of HPV. Do condoms contain warning labels that this is the case? If not, than it may be that condom use itself is contributing to the spread of HPV by giving people a false sense of security. The fact is that the increase in the spread of STD's runs concurrent with the increase in the use of contraceptives. I think promoting a contraceptive mentality among teenagers only adds to the problem. Here are some more sad statistics: |
| 2005-10-26 11:48 AM in reply to: #272142 |
Extreme Veteran 604 Northwest Ohio | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers But I go back to my original point. This was my 11-year-old CHILD (who spent the last evening playing with his Hot Wheels cars spread out across the family room floor) that was being given information about STDs without my prior knowledge..... How can that be okay??? |
| 2005-10-26 11:51 AM in reply to: #272142 |
Queen BTich 12411 , | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers I don't think that it was ok to give that to them, the parents should have been notified. But I do think the talk should be sooner than later. Like I said, its going to be around him and along with what Welshy and Jim were saying, present the facts, present BOTH sides of the agrument and let him make his own decisions. Kids listen, especially when parents are involved (like you are). |
| 2005-10-26 11:55 AM in reply to: #272740 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers run4yrlif - Those stats only show correlations, and not cause-and-effect relationships. Are you talking about the charts on depression? OK, you're right. So let's say that the cause is depression and the effect is sexual activity. Shouldn't that lead to a school health system being more concerned about teaching about and testing for depression in teenagers? If the cause is depression, then these kids need treatment for depression, not condoms being passed out. |
| 2005-10-26 12:13 PM in reply to: #272749 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers Well, it'd be interesting to see that of the population surveyed, what percentage of kids said they were depressed (according to the def'n given in the chart). A better way to go about it would to survey the kids that call themselves depressed and look at the contributing factors. Some of them are sexually active, the chart says that. But how many of them are sexually abused? How many of them have parents that talk to them? How many of them eat a good diet or get some exercise. How many of them play video games more than 4 hours a day. What are their grades like? What's the income level of their parents? Does their father live with them? What part of the country do they live? How many of them are in Seattle where it rains a lot? It's endless. Lying with statistics is a multi-billion dollar activity. It's so, so easy to ask a group a bunch of questions, find two things that correlate and ignore the rest of the data and bam! You've "proved" your argument. Doesn't matter if the one had anything to do with the other. Don, I know that isn't what you're doing. I'm just trying to exemplify how statistics are so often used for evil, rather than for good. People love a chart, and if they see numbers, well, numbers don't lie, right? dontracy - 2005-10-26 11:55 AM run4yrlif - Those stats only show correlations, and not cause-and-effect relationships. Are you talking about the charts on depression? OK, you're right. So let's say that the cause is depression and the effect is sexual activity. Shouldn't that lead to a school health system being more concerned about teaching about and testing for depression in teenagers? If the cause is depression, then these kids need treatment for depression, not condoms being passed out. |
| 2005-10-26 12:37 PM in reply to: #272768 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers run4yrlif - How many of them are in Seattle where it rains a lot? It's endless... How many of them read Cup of Joe... j/k j/k run4yrlif - Don, I know that isn't what you're doing. I'm just trying to exemplifyhow statistics are so often used for evil, rather than for good. Well, it was worth a try. Gotta remember who I'm playing with here. I would just add that when I hear, "well, kid's are just gonna have sex anyway" I want to ask the same broad range of questions that you just asked. I think it's too important to just take at face value. bettylou - This was my 11-year-old CHILD (who spent the last evening playing with his Hot Wheels cars spread out across the family room floor) that was being given information about STDs without my prior knowledge..... How can that be okay??? It's not. I think you should go rip the school board a new one. |
| 2005-10-26 12:41 PM in reply to: #272798 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers dontracy - 2005-10-26 12:37 PM How many of them read Cup of Joe... j/k j/k . Totally!Well, it was worth a try. Eh...not a problem. You just stumbled upon one of my pet peeves. And anyway, it gave me a chance to bust out what I leaned in statistics. Not to mention, get any hot tri chick stats geeks that may be lurking all hot and bothered. |
| 2005-10-26 12:43 PM in reply to: #272801 |
Master 2052 Colorado | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers Stats rule! run4yrlif - 2005-10-26 1:41 PM dontracy - 2005-10-26 12:37 PM How many of them read Cup of Joe... j/k j/k . Totally!Well, it was worth a try. Eh...not a problem. You just stumbled upon one of my pet peeves. And anyway, it gave me a chance to bust out what I leaned in statistics. Not to mention, get any hot tri chick stats geeks that may be lurking all hot and bothered. |
| 2005-10-26 12:45 PM in reply to: #272142 |
Queen BTich 12411 , | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers |
| 2005-10-26 12:45 PM in reply to: #272805 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers |
| 2005-10-26 12:46 PM in reply to: #272807 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers |
| 2005-10-26 12:47 PM in reply to: #272742 |
Veteran 302 Virginia | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers Bettylou - 2005-10-26 11:48 AMBut I go back to my original point.This was my 11-year-old CHILD (who spent the last evening playing with his Hot Wheels cars spread out across the family room floor) that was being given information about STDs without my prior knowledge.....How can that be okay??? MaryLou, my youngest daughter's birth mother was 11 years old when she gave birth. She was from an upper middle class family that you would be shocked to know was in that situation. Yes, these are children, but they are becoming active earlier and earlier. I urge you to use this as a starting point for having your own conversation with your son. |
 2005-10-26 1:03 PM in reply to: #272142 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2005-10-26 1:13 PM in reply to: #272833 |
| Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers Gawd freaking dammit! I knew it! This country's blatant discrimination against pirates will lead to the ruin of the world. adverbia - 2005-10-26 1:03 PM Among other things, it has an interesting statistical correllation between global warming and the decline in the number of pirates in the last 200 years. Really.  Adverbia |
| 2005-10-26 1:18 PM in reply to: #272142 |
| Extreme Veteran 604 Northwest Ohio | Subject: RE: Sex education for middle schoolers I had "the talk" with my youngest son about sex a while back. Like Adverbia said, there's so much out there in the media that to avoid talking about it would be irresponsible parenting. And with my two older boys, I have been amazed by the aggressiveness of many of the girls, starting at a young age.... But I believe that parents should be informed about what is being taught, and HOW it is being taught in the schools. If a health professional is planning on giving my 13-year-old condoms (as they were doing a few years ago), I want to know about it in advance, wouldn't you? |
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