Over a cartoon? (Page 2)

Well, actually, I did make little dolls of everyone who thought that image was ok and then I stuck pins in them. So if anyone's training was off that week, it's your own fault.

Here's what I would like to know :

As a Christian, I have a duty to help spread the Gospel. However, it is clearly not ok to do so using violent means. Certainly, in history there have been times when violence was used to force the Gospel on people, but you would be wrong to draw a conclusion from those times and say that violence as a means of spreading the Gospel was a teaching of Christianity.

I don't know enough about Islam to know if the same is true or not.

Is violence a sanctioned means of spreading Islam? Does this method appear in the Koran? If it does, is it taken literally, or is it taken as a reflection of the times that Mohammed lived in? Who and what are the institutions that state definitive teachings about Islam? Is there an institution similar to the Church Magisterium? If two institutions are teaching conflicting things, how should I discern which is the truth about Islam and which is heresy?

What does orthodox Islam, if there is such a thing, really teach?

Here's a sad note to add to this thread:

A Catholic priest was shot and killed in Trabzon, Turkey, on Sunday, and authorities there are investigating whether the murder was related to Islamic anger over cartoons published in European newspapers.

Father Andrea Santoro, an Italian missionary priest who had served in Turkey for 10 years, was shot twice at point-blank range in his church in the port town on the Black Sea. The gunman shouted, "Allah is great!" before running out of the church.

Bishop Luigi Padovese of Anatolia, who rushed to the scene on hearing of the priest's death, told the AsiaNews service that the timing of the killing-- as Muslim militants around the world protest the cartoons mocking Islam-- "does not seem incidental to me." The bishop reported that the atmosphere in Turkey, a predominantly Muslim country, "is heated, not to say overheated." Christian churches were under heavy security in the aftermath of the killing.

Government investigators are also considering the possibilities that the assassin was a lone fanatic or that he was connected with the thriving prostitution business in Trabzon. Father Santoro had helped many young woman escape from lives of prostitution.

I don't think anyone has claimed all Moslims to be raging militants. But.....(there's always a but).... Islam as a whole is either unwilling or unable to control what many of you are claiming to be a very small number of militant Moslims.

And Don the K. may or may not teach violence(I'm not thoroughly knowledgeable in it's contents) but this I know,  the John 3:16 of the Koran is to die in martyrdom of Islam.

It could be said that religion, whatever form that takes, is detrimental to society and humanity - particularly when an individuals faith is so brittle that the existence of another, differing faith can not and will not be tolerated. Why is it so important for these religions to convert others? Is there some kind of point system for number of souls saved? Is heaven really a divine pyramid system, like Amway?

Oh Geez, does everyone have their rubber sole shoes and copper ground rods handy!

I guess it could be said, Weshy, but it would also be wrong.  I'm confident that if we explored this on another thread it would become clear that the opposite is true.

The thing I find interesting about these cartoons is that they may have been published months ago...if the local radio station has the information correct that is. 

Also, Renee, I really liked your explanation regarding what the world would be like if the majority of muslims were violent extremists.  I was thinking the same thing but you put it into words very well.  Nicely done.

Don, if I combine your questions and Jim's comments here's what I come up with.  In this country a person or group of people can attain political power through the advocacy of a set of religious beliefs, regardless of their true motives or agenda.  Why shouldn't it be the same in any other country?  Is it more likely that these people who lead these extremist groups are real "religious leaders" or that they are a group of people trying to attain political clout by preying on the beliefs, fears and prejudices of the masses of believers available to them? 

Orthodoxy is my doxy; heterodoxy is another man's doxy. - William Warburton

I read this and found it insightful:

ISLAM SATIRE: SIR, LOWER TONES TO AVOID CONFLICT

(AGI) - Vatican City, 6 Feb. - "The clash of civilizations is unfortunately a prophecy that could be realised. It is not happening yet, but by dint of both sides spinning out this crisis, we are making it actually happen", wrote the Religious Information Service of the Italian Church (SIR), in a release signed by the sociologist Stefano Allievi, who was commenting on the violent demonstrations that have broken out in the Muslim world in Europe and the Middle East following the publication of the satirical cartoons on the Prophet Muhammad. "I think that behind these events," continues Allievi, defined by SIR as 'one of the top Islam experts in Italy', "there is a clear demonstration of Muslim communities' anger due to a long period of conflicting interpretations of reality." The sociologist underlined that "there have been in the past much worse cases of satire relating to the Prophet. The Danish case hence appears as an excuse, even trivial, but it has put coal on the fire, on a real conflict that is already underway, fed on the one side by the anger of the Muslim minorities and on the other by the West's preoccupation and fear, that is projected on the entire Muslim world, rather than the real enemy, not managing anymore to distinguish between friends and enemies". (AGI) .

The Western World has a very different view of reality than (what I will sloppily and somewhat inaccurately call) the Muslim World has. These very different world views are colliding. Reasoned, calm souls on both sides look for common ground; fear-mongering, irrational souls on both sides look for ways to divide and conquer.

It's not so surprising that our different cultures have such different world views. I find my world view to be quite different from many Americans' world views, including the POTUS'.

Yes, that is the question I have.

For example, in Christianity I would make the case that the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ and still the authoritative body regarding faith and morals. (and under Catholicism, in addition to the Latin/Roman Rite, I would include about twenty other Rites that are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, as well as the Eastern Orthodox Church which is not in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, but is a true Apostolic Church and has valid sacraments)

It's a very compelling historical and theological argument, and I would say to anyone who was looking for what Christianity teaches to look to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church for orthodox teaching.

Is there a similar institution is Islam? (whether or not all Muslims would agree with it's authority)

John, this is the way I lean in my understanding of Islam. I hope that it is true.

Pearls, Renee... you post pearls before us swine...

That's it, isn't it?  Who or what is the real enemy and how much of our concern instead deals with mere fog and shadows... 

I'd like to recommend the book by Terry Pratchett Small Gods on that subject.

And that's my contribution to this thread.

-Chris 

I agree with you about the last part.  However, and I'm trying to phrase this politely because I really don't want to start another whole debate, but I notice that Catholics use the terms Catholic and Christianity almost interchangeably during discussions of Christianity and Muslim ideals.  However, when studied, Catholicism is one of the least tolerant and most polarizing of the Christian faiths.  If you haven't figured it out by now, I'm Lutheran.  I don't want to digress into an argument over the differences in our faiths for it is unlikely that you and I will resolve them but rather just point out that those differences exist, and were important enough that people died over them.  Before we tsk tsk over Muslim behavior (Don-not saying you were doing this but I see too many others who do) it is useful to study our own.

WHile differences in general are good, IMO, it's kind of sad that so much all religious conflict is based on differences while ignoring the fact that there is so much similarity in the different faiths, be it between different denominations of a particular religion or between religions themselves.

It's my experience that we have far more in common than we tend to realize...

This is an interesting thread to me--I get thougtful and outraged by turns.  I'm learning a lot, from both those who hold similar views to mine and those who hold profoundly different ones.

 I'd like to inject another facet to this discussion: Indonesia is the most populous Islamic nation in the world, with over 200 million people. I lived there for two years, and had Indonesian friends who were Muslim, Hindu, and Christian (the country has colonial western set up boundaries and would not be a single entity if not for history, but that's another thread).  I had uniformly interesting and thoughtful discussions about religion with all of my friends, and I fasted for Ramadan with my friends, for the experience and to show respect. I know only a little about Islam, but as it was practiced by the people I know, there's a fair amount to like. Not all, b/c I am a western woman, but some.

And yes, there have been multiple riots and bombings in Indonesia, by Muslim extremists. There have also been riots and bombings against Muslims on some of the Christian-majority islands. But again, this is a few hundred or thousand people out of 200 million plus, the vast majority of whom are peace-loving. Muslim clerics have been in the streets and the mosques calling for an end to violence in each of these instances, as have Christian clergy.

Ok, that's all. 

Well, we disagree about that one. But I'm with you, let's save it for another day and another thread.

OK, so let's say someone with no knowledge of Christianity was going to a comparative religion class and wanted to know what Christianity teaches. They'd be told to look at Roman catholicism, Lutheran catholicism, Anglican catholicism, Calvinism, Wesleanism, the anabaptists, ect. ect.

Then they could walk away and sit down and compare the history of each and what each proposes and decide what "Christianity Teaches". Of course, what they conclude "Christianity Teaches", and let's assume they're right in their conclusion, may be quite different from how christians actually act.

Is there a similar comparison that can be made in Isalm? For example, are the teachings of Sunni and Shiite Islam radically different from each other, or only in degree. Is there a way of knowing which is closer to the original teaching of Mohammed. Does it even make sense to ask this question about Islam, or am I using a "christian" way of thinking in order to understand an "Islamic" reality?

As a bit of a hijack, has anyone been following the Chad Allen/ "End of the Spear" thing? "End of the Spear" is a film produced by an evangelical film company about Christian missionaries in Ecuador. Chad Allen, who stars in the film, also happens to be a gay activist. It seems like some Christians aren't to fond of the juxtaposition.

Since that latter fact has been made public, there have been a bunch of threats made against the film company and against Mr. Allen.

I'll consider that last one a question for the group as I am unqualified to answer.  And I know when I don't know what I don't know, you know?

Expanding on your example, I'd like to see a Baptist minister, a Catholic priest, and a Lutheran pastor each explain to a Muslim the status, authority and importance of the Pope.  From a religious perspective, not a political one.  Then interview the Muslim and find out what he or she retains or thinks of the explanations.

Sorry, yea I meant that question for the group.  'Cause I also know when I don't know...

Wow, that is a really cool idea.  Who gets to pick the representatives? 

How 'bout, among other things, saving and expanding on Aristotelian philosophy, which led to the development of, among other things, Randian Objectivism? 

Q&A with Charlene Gubash on Muslim reaction to the Danish cartoons:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11164199/