Mr. Romney, have you heard of this thing called "irony"? (Page 2)

I agree with most of your post but in fast and furious the U.S. Government supervised the sale of assult weapons to know gang members and drug dealers the result of which is 1 dead agent and perhaps scores of dead Mexican citizens.  The AG of the United States lied about the operation and lied about what he knew about the operation and now the President is forbiding the Congress from seeing any more records.

I agree, it's in a different context than the other examples.  I guess I was more going for the opposing side turning it into "they're definitely trying to hide something" which they may or may not be doing.

I think the quote is actually, "did you stop beating your wife"

@ Tony, I think the other posters pretty much covered what I would have said. Thanks for the response.

True, but the difference is that someone using the tax laws to their advantage is simply doing so to keep more of their own money that they earned.  The latter example is someone using the welfare laws to get more of the former guy's money that they did absolutely nothing to earn.  See the difference?

Do some people take advantage of the system to line their pockets? Sure. But the contention is that Romney, through the millions of pages of tax loopholes built into the tax code, is taking advantage of the system to line his own pockets. Nobody's doing anything illegal, they're just finding ways to keep more money in their own bank accounts. If you say `Don't complain about Romney, complain about the system,' then the same should be true about welfare. If you don't like it, push to get the system changed. Until then, stop making it sound like it's a year-round holiday to be on food stamps.

Personally, I believe the tax code needs to be rewritten to avoid just this kind of mess. But it's like the attic -- you go up there with the best intentions of organizing it, but once you're up there you just look around and think `Wow, I dont even know where to start.' and go back downstairs to watch football.

Even the hardest-core right-wingers admit there's a time and place for welfare. The system is designed to help people who've paid into welfare through their own taxes when they work. Then explain to me why paying in, isn't a pre-req for getting assistance?  And why, at the end of my career, is there not a big fat check waiting for me for all the money I paid in, that I never used? There are far, far, far too many people on wlefare as a job.  This is the problem, it is not set up as a sort of forced individual "rainy day account"  It is set up to take care of those who are too lazy to take care of themselves; veiled as a program that is designed to support the individual worker. Does it help the individual worker, sure.  However, any system that is designed to take money from a portion of the whole while giving money to the entirety of the whole regardless of paying in, is a flawed system ripe to be taken advantage of.  

When they're down on their luck, they need a leg up and that government assistance is there for them until they can get a job and get back on their feet, and again pay into the system. Agreed, but it doesn't work this way.  

It's like social security -- do you think people pay into the SS system all those years didn't earn it? Very poor example.  For many, many decades you got more out of SS than you ever paid in.  This is due to the fact that when it started there was something like a 9:1 ratio of payers to payees and the payroll tax was only 2%.  We have now reached a point where we are paying the piper, so to speak.  An average worker retiring today will get less back (average life span) than they paid in.  It will only get worse.  Again, bad example.

If you lose your job and you literally have no income (which in this economy could happen to anybody, anytime) and you need to feed and shelter and clothe your family, then all those taxes you paid that went into the welfare system over the years will come back and help you out. Until you get another job and can again pay into the system.  I agree, but again too many people use welfare as a job, and there is virtually no restrictions on doing this.  

Do some people take advantage of the system to line their pockets? Sure. But the contention is that Romney, through the millions of pages of tax loopholes built into the tax code, is taking advantage of the system to line his own pockets. Nobody's doing anything illegal, they're just finding ways to keep more money in their own bank accounts.  Again, though the former (welfare) is lining their pockets largely, if not completely, with my money.  The latter example (tax loopholes) is lining my pockets with my money.  Big difference.

If you say `Don't complain about Romney, complain about the system,' then the same should be true about welfare. If you don't like it, push to get the system changed. Until then, stop making it sound like it's a year-round holiday to be on food stamps. Personally, I believe the tax code needs to be rewritten to avoid just this kind of mess. But it's like the attic -- you go up there with the best intentions of organizing it, but once you're up there you just look around and think `Wow, I dont even know where to start.' and go back downstairs to watch football.

Even the hardest-core right-wingers admit there's a time and place for welfare. The system is designed to help people who've paid into welfare through their own taxes when they work. Then explain to me why paying in, isn't a pre-req for getting assistance?  And why, at the end of my career, is there not a big fat check waiting for me for all the money I paid in, that I never used? There are far, far, far too many people on wlefare as a job.  This is the problem, it is not set up as a sort of forced individual "rainy day account"  It is set up to take care of those who are too lazy to take care of themselves; veiled as a program that is designed to support the individual worker. Does it help the individual worker, sure.  However, any system that is designed to take money from a portion of the whole while giving money to the entirety of the whole regardless of paying in, is a flawed system ripe to be taken advantage of.  

When they're down on their luck, they need a leg up and that government assistance is there for them until they can get a job and get back on their feet, and again pay into the system. Agreed, but it doesn't work this way.  

It's like social security -- do you think people pay into the SS system all those years didn't earn it? Very poor example.  For many, many decades you got more out of SS than you ever paid in.  This is due to the fact that when it started there was something like a 9:1 ratio of payers to payees and the payroll tax was only 2%.  We have now reached a point where we are paying the piper, so to speak.  An average worker retiring today will get less back (average life span) than they paid in.  It will only get worse.  Again, bad example.

If you lose your job and you literally have no income (which in this economy could happen to anybody, anytime) and you need to feed and shelter and clothe your family, then all those taxes you paid that went into the welfare system over the years will come back and help you out. Until you get another job and can again pay into the system.  I agree, but again too many people use welfare as a job, and there is virtually no restrictions on doing this.  

Do some people take advantage of the system to line their pockets? Sure. But the contention is that Romney, through the millions of pages of tax loopholes built into the tax code, is taking advantage of the system to line his own pockets. Nobody's doing anything illegal, they're just finding ways to keep more money in their own bank accounts.  Again, though the former (welfare) is lining their pockets largely, if not completely, with my money.  The latter example (tax loopholes) is lining my pockets with my money.  Big difference.

If you say `Don't complain about Romney, complain about the system,' then the same should be true about welfare. If you don't like it, push to get the system changed. Until then, stop making it sound like it's a year-round holiday to be on food stamps. Personally, I believe the tax code needs to be rewritten to avoid just this kind of mess. But it's like the attic -- you go up there with the best intentions of organizing it, but once you're up there you just look around and think `Wow, I dont even know where to start.' and go back downstairs to watch football.

I have known both types and I am sorry but it does seem that the free riders outnumber the leg uppers.  Part of that has to do with welfare itself.  I have even seen where one friend was faced with quitting her job or losing her benefits all because she got a raise.

I have known both types and I am sorry but it does seem that the free riders outnumber the leg uppers.  Part of that has to do with welfare itself.  I have even seen where one friend was faced with quitting her job or losing her benefits all because she got a raise.

Yeah, I agree that the free riders outnumber the leg uppers.  I'm probably in the middle of the extremes somewhere though because I do agree that we need a safety net, but we've got to shore up the loopholes.

I grew up in a very poor family that horribly took advantage of the welfare system.  Both my Mom and Dad were able bodied and could have easily gotten jobs, but the welfare was just as much or more than they would have gotten working so they chose not to work and be "lazy".  I also had several aunts and uncles who did the same and just kept having more and more kids to keep the benefits rolling until Social Security kicked in.  The game was, to continue having kids until you hit your mid to late 30's to keep the paychecks coming.  Then when you hit 50 you go to the Doctor that everyone goes to to trump up a disability (bad back usually) and then start getting your Social Security early.  I'm not saying everyone does this, but my life spectrum is full of it, so I admit I'm pretty biased on this topic.

This has really evolved into a new topic.

What was the original topic?

Harry Reid using the Senate floor inappropriately at the request of the President?

I did not do my due diligence and am only basing my opinions on people I know who have cheated the system.  lol  (no red font there).  

That's why I genuinely do fall in the middle somewhere on this topic.  I don't know the statistics, but I do know there are people who cheat the system.  I also know that when I was in the Navy and my first son was born my wife and I used WIC until we made more money.  So, I'm personally one of the helping hand statistics.

You grew up in a Trailer Park too?  I knew there was something I liked about you.