Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions (Page 2)

You know what I love hearing? White people say race isn't an issue for black people.  That's a bunch of pure awesome right there.

Is race an issue that impacts white people on a daily basis in this country. No.  Is it an issue that imapcts black people on a daily baisis in this country. Yes. 

You're comparing me today to "black people" and of course my life today is better than most "black people".  However, my life today is better than most "white people" too, so what's your point?

Remember, we're talking about kids getting into college.  When I was a kid, I was homeless for two years, and then lived in a trailer house that didn't have running water in the winter.  I remember a really tough time through elementary and middle school where I wore the same free clothes I got from the shelter for months at a time without washing them or bathing.  I also got to experience the wonderful world of juvi detention at the ripe old age of 12.
So, I'm going to say back in those days that virtually no black person would want to be in my shoes.  

So, my question is why does the poor white kid growing up in tough circumstance, not have the same level of need as a poor black kid growing up in a similar circumstances?

How is that any different than a white person arguing the opposite?

I won't disagree with that, but here's the rub.  What is the effect of racism in a kids life?  You're singled out and treated differently based on the color of your skin which of course a kid has no control over.

Is it different if I'm singled out and treated different because I'm poor?
Is it different if I'm singled out and treated different because I live in a trailer park?
Is it different if I'm singled out and treated different because I stink and wear the same clothes every day?
Is it different if I'm singled out and treated different because "you name it".

The simple fact is a kid who is treated different has to overcome those effects no matter what the cause.  I was treated different, bullied, and isolated just the same, but only for different reasons.

For whatever reason we as a people like to label everyone and then we complain that a person with label X is treated different.  I personally detest labeling people and whenever I have a form that asks me my ethnicity I put American.  The sooner we can get past segregating people into classes and labels the sooner we can stop arguing about how people are treated based on their label.

And you should probably find a reading comprehension thread.  I clearly said black people don't want white people defining how they feel.....and they dfon't.  You can't make blanket statements about how black people feel or what is an issue for them.  They speak for themselves.  And from what I'm told it's because you don't have a clue how they feel about their skin color or how it affects their life.....and guess what.....you don't!  I've got half an office full of black guys right now who would break up laughing at your post. LOL

Oh, yes, LB, please, please give me a lesson on reading comprehension!  And while you're at it please keep the "I have a black guy in the care next to me" and "I have an office full of black guys" routine up. It's so textbook it's laughable.  I have a ____________(insert minority/marginalized group here) here so I can say whatever I want.

Whatever.

Of course I can, because I'm not making up crap about "how black people feel" like you are.  I can tell you that black people don't want you defining how they feel because I am told that by black people.  What in the world could you, or I, know about how black people feel with regard to their skin color and life experiences with regard to their skin color.  The black people I know would like you to shut up, because they don't want some white woman speaking for them and how they feel.  I get it 100%........you should wake up.

Tuwood's got it right. 

I think people like you are one of the biggest contributors to continued racism.....even if you are not racist yourself. 

Whe you make a statement like you did, when you go on about how black peple are bullied, harrassed, etc.......are you not making a judgement about a black person's life based on their skin color?  How in the hell do you differentiate between behavior that you detest and your own judgemental words?

If you truly don't believe people should be judged on what they look like then why do you do it?  Why do you assume things about their life experiences based on their skin color?  Why do you feel like you can makje blanket statements about black people if not for your own judgement based on the color of their skin?

It took me a long time to get to the point I am with race and racism.  Contrary to what people like Switch think about personal experieces like working full time in a public housing project, and supervising a unit that is over 50% black officers, and having a black partner for 6 years who was shot and killed over an ounce of marijuana....it does make a huge difference.  I have been blessed to be able to have very frank conversations about race and racism with black men that I have a bond with due to our work situation.  They don't trust you.  They don't understand why you think you can speak for them....and they damn sure don't think you have a clue about how it feels to be them.  These are great men and women.....and they sure as hell don't see the world like you do.....and I promise they don't go through life feeling like their skin color makes them a target for bullying, harassment, discrimination, etc.

I know you can't possibly be referring to all black people, as I could give you hundreds (Thousands?) of references to blacks specifically addressing discrimination/bullying/harassment based on the color of their skin.  Maybe for fun we should just stick to recent cases with cops--Rodney King, Trayvon Martin, OJ SImspon, etc.  Of course, we all know these are just the high profile cases.  The number of wrongly convicted blacks in all levels of the judicial system speaks volumes. 

If you and Tuwood think his experience wouldn't have been harder as black kid, I just flat out disagree with that.  A black kid growing up in this country in the 70s and 80s, if I have Tony's age right, given Tony's exact same circumstances would have had it worse because of the color of his skin (I don't even know where Tony grew up, but we should throw that into the mix.)  That doesn't mean Tony's situation didn't suck.  It means that a black kid would have had race issues on top of everything else. I don't want that to be true, but I absolutely think it is. 

This is an AA thread.  By definition it includes conversations about race and racism--which is a subject of discussion and point of contention because it has been (and continues to be) an issue. 

I would never refer to all black people, that's what you did.  And yes, Switch, I will go on.  I am also referring to the city sanitation workers that I have come to know in the 29 years here, the city councilmen who's friends were shot and killed by another black man in a dispute with our city that centered on racism.  I am referring to the hundreds and probably thousands of people I got to know workling the same public housing beat for many years......as one of only two white cops there. 

You have no business speaking for any of them.  You have no business trying to convince other people what it feels like to be black, or what black people experience because of their skin color.  You are more judgemental than any racist could ever be.  You wrongly assume that all black people feel like you think they do......how dare you....really.  You are part of the problem. 

I'm not going to have any more discussion about it.  You can go on and have your AA discussion and pretend you are helping a problem you can't even identify except in the context of some history that largtely no longer applies except in the minds of people like you who perpetuate racism by separating the life experiences of people of different colors.  Grow up.

I'm sure you won't agree with me, but I'd say my experience growing up in Sioux City, IA was harder because I "wasn't" a black kid.  It was (and still is) perfectly acceptable to discriminate against a poor white kid who lives in a trailer park and often teachers/adults were standing alongside the kids in the bullying.  With the black kids, it was "taboo" to make fun of them or discriminate so they were left alone for the most part. (born in 73, school through the 80's, graduated HS in 91).  Then you look at scholarship opportunities and back then it was almost exclusively based on minority status, so I didn't even get any help going to college.  I ended up joining the Navy for my ticket out.

I don't speak for minorities and I don't have one sitting next to me, but I do volunteer for a mostly black inner city project to help impoverished kids (of all races) get out of poverty.  There's not a one of them that is trying to overcome racism or discrimination, they're trying to overcome their lack of education and their environment to be able to successfully interact in the business world.  If you're entire life you've spoken with broken english and can't shake a persons hand or make eye contact, you are going to be at a severe disadvantage in the workplace.  These are problems that cross racial lines and are the problems that need to be worked on.

I'm not "pretending to help" a damn thing except calling you out on another case of your crazy BS. I stated early on in this thread that I don't believe in AA.  Never have. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge racism exists. Perpetuating it and acknowledging  it exists are two different things.

I haven't made a single statement about what all black people feel--the ONLY person who has done that in this thread is you.  Damn, your hypocrisy is astounding.

And if you think you really got to know hundreds of people by working as a cop in a housing project, you are more delusional than I could have imagined.

Switch, there's no question that racism still exists and I think LB would agree with that.  However, to say that a poor white kid growing up in poverty is completely different than a poor black kid growing up in poverty simply due to his skin color is incorrect and disrespectful to the black kid in my opinion.  Kids get picked on and bullied for all kinds of reasons (race, ethnicity, religion, appearance, cleanliness, sexual orientation, you name it).  Racism was horrible 50 years ago because it was essentially sanctioned by the state and society.  It was OK to demean and destroy minorities, but that is no longer the case. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is not accepted anywhere in our society and that is the true victory over racism in America.
Any one of us in this thread would do anything we could if we witnessed a blatant example of racism, and the vast majority of people in our society would do the same.

We all have experienced racism in our lives to one extent or another, some of it is more overt and some of it is not.  I was called a white a## cracker by a homeless guy in downtown Omaha within the last month when I didn't give him any money.  OK, so what?  I felt sorry for the guy and moved on.

I just saw this article a few minutes ago that's a good example of societies tolerance of racism.
Ala. Dem Offers $100K for Proof of White Families Adopting Black Kids; Families Show Up

Society does not allow racism against blacks.  If a white senator repeatedly made prejudicial and racial statements towards black people he would be humiliated and likely be forced to resign.  It is not tolerated.
However, we as a society do not have the same feelings towards racism against whites, so it is accepted by our society and continues to happen on larger and larger platforms.  In a way societies view on racism against other ethnicities is probably 20 or 30 years behind our views on racism against blacks.

Don't misread what I'm saying to complain that whites are being persecuted for being white because I'm not.  I'm simply saying that the level that a society accepts and allows racism is the extent that racism exists.

I will be happy to continue to participate in this conversation as long as it maintains some civility, and we stick to what has actually been said. The bolded above in your post misrepresents what I've said and then goes on to say that I'm being "disrespectful to the black kid".

In my mind things got out of hand here yesterday.  Maybe the mods completely leave this forum alone, but in this thread so far I have been told to "shut up, " "grow up," and the I am "more judgmental than any racist could ever be."

If you read the words I actually wrote--not what someone else thinks I wrote and then comments on, but the actual words that I typed--those comments are extraordinarily disrespectful and inappropriate.

For the record, I didn't say any of those things to you.  I like you and always enjoy your point of view.  

Here's what I was referring to, so if I misinterpreted what you said I would ask that you accept my appology.

Here's what I said and your reply to it:

tuwood:
I've always felt that AA based simply on ethnicity was unfair because a poor white kid growing up in a rough hood is the same as a poor black kid in my mind.  They both have most of the same socioeconomic challenges to overcome in life.

switch:
No they're not, and no they don't. 

I feel that poor kids are poor kids and it doesn't matter what race they are, they still have to overcome most of the same challenges.  You didn't agree with me on either level, so I inferred the opposite that you felt they are different and they don't have to overcome the same things because one is a minority and the other is not.

That really got out of hand fast

It's a good decision. I love government solutions. Only they could try to convince people applying more of the problem will be the solution.

I have no idea what challenge blacks face. But being curly haired... I definitely know "they" are trying to keep the curly headed people down. Don't even get me started on being left handed.

Thanks Tony.

I'm glad you went back to the original post.  I reqouted it here from the original to get rid of that massive quote :) 

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Blacks do not have socioeconomic parity with whites.

Here's a paper published in 2010 that addresses socioeconomic factors and black/white disparity.  Even if you don't have time to read the paper, take a look at the figures: http://nulwb.stage.iamempowered.com/sites/nulwb.iamempowered.com/fi... is a link from the American Psychological Association about race and its implications in socioeconomic factors:

http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-erm.aspx

I know people are sometimes resistant to clicking links, so a few of the highlights:

• Discrimination and marginalization are sometimes barriers for ethnic and racial minorities seeking to escape poverty (Corcoran & Nichols-Casebolt, 2004).

• African American children are three times more likely to live in poverty than Caucasian children. American Indian/Alaska Native, Hispanic, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian families are more likely than Caucasian and Asian families to live in poverty (Costello, Keeler, & Angold, 2001; National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

• Although the income of Asian American families is often markedly above other minorities, these families also often have four to five family members working (Le, 2008).

• Minorities are more likely to receive high-cost mortgages: African Americans (53 percent) and Latinos (43 percent), in comparison to Caucasians (18 percent) (Logan,2008).

• Unemployment rates for African Americans are typically double those of Caucasian Americans. African American men working full time earn 72 percent of the average earnings of comparable Caucasian men and 85 percent of the earnings of Caucasian women (Rodgers, 2008).

Education

• Despite dramatic changes, large gaps remain when minority education attainment is compared to that of Caucasian Americans (American Council on Education, 2006).

• African Americans and Latinos are more likely to attend high-poverty schools than Asian Americans and Caucasians (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

• In 2005, the high school dropout rate of Latinos was highest, followed by those of African Americans and American Indians/Alaska Natives (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

• In addition to socioeconomic realities that may deprive students of valuable resources, high-achieving African American students may be exposed to less rigorous curriculums, attend schools with fewer resources, and have teachers who expect less of them academically than they expect of similarly situated Caucasian students (Azzam, 2008).

Physical Health

• Systemic prejudices against ethnic minorities in the United States create additional barriers in health care that exist regardless of class.

• In one study, one-fourth of American women of South Asian descent from affluent backgrounds did not have a Pap smear in over 3 years. Those from low socioeconomic status are even more at risk for not having this early detection test yearly (Chaudhry, Fink, Gelberg, & Brook, 2003).

• Socioeconomic status and race/ethnicity have been associated with avoidable procedures, avoidable hospitalizations, and untreated disease (Fiscella, Franks, Gold, & Clancy, 2008).

• Low birth weight, which is related to a number of negative child health outcomes, has been associated with lower SES and ethnic/minority status (Fiscella et al., 2008).

Psychological Health

• Socioeconomic deprivation and racial discrimination have been implicated higher psychological distress.

• Minority children in high-poverty areas are more likely to be exposed to alcohol and tobacco advertisements (Wallace, 1999) and drug distribution (Wallace, 1999); they are also more likely to use drugs and exhibit antisocial behaviors (Dubow, Edwards, & Ippolito, 1997).

• The odds of being diagnosed with schizophrenia were significantly higher for African Americans than Caucasians in lower poverty areas (Chow et al., 2003).

• African Americans are at higher risk for involuntary psychiatric commitment than any other racial group. African Americans and Latinos in low-poverty areas were more likely to be referred for commitment by a law enforcement official than any other racial group (Chow et al., 2003).