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The new BO health care plan (Page 2)
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 2009-06-25 10:10 AM in reply to: #2242292 |
Slower Than You  9566     Cracklantaburbs |  Subject: RE: The new BO health care planrun4yrlif - 2009-06-25 11:06 AM Jackemy - 2009-06-25 11:00 AM Say you got really hurt or sick. Do hospitals have the right to refuse care if they determine that you do not have the financial ability to pay? Private hospitals, yes. Public hospitals, no. Take it back: Private hospitals are required to provide treatment for emergent cases. Once emergent patients are stabilized, they are sent to public hospitals. This. Again, I made the personal choice to make sure I have health insurance so that this does not happen to me. |
| 2009-06-25 10:11 AM in reply to: #2242292 |
Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan I thought this was a good read http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=all especially since Obama is supposedly showing this this article to his staff, on changes he wants and what he doesnt' want. I can't remember the name of his staff memeber blog that references this article as well as a few others when they speak of what they don't want a system to be like cost wise. eta spell check Edited by Gaarryy 2009-06-25 10:11 AM |
| 2009-06-25 10:12 AM in reply to: #2242307 |
Slower Than You 9566 Cracklantaburbs | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan Of course doctors have the right not to dispense care without compensation. However, their hippocratic oath may put them in a difficult spot now and then. |
| 2009-06-25 10:16 AM in reply to: #2242062 |
Veteran 840 | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan trigods - 2009-06-25 9:11 AM No I am not... 4 four years I was uninsured by choice and never had to go to the doctor. I never paid a cent to a health care professional or anything to do with the health care system. So no I was not involuntarily paying for anything because I chose not to use the sytem. I could buy into your plan with one condition. When you show up at the hospital with an injury from an accident or with cancer or any other expensive condition a person would have to show proof in insurance or ability to pay in full. You being unable to prove that you can pay for the treatment... would be put on the curb. You willing to accept that as part of your personal finance plan? |
| 2009-06-25 10:16 AM in reply to: #2242304 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan Jackemy - 2009-06-25 11:09 AM run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 10:06 AM Jackemy - 2009-06-25 11:00 AM bcart1991 - 2009-06-25 9:28 AM pengy - 2009-06-25 10:20 AM So you're complaining that they won't use their money for health care, but ridiculing a plan that would force them to have it? I'm confused. Why are you confused? We have the liberty to make personal choices in this country. Those choices include where we live, what we do for a living, and what we choose to say about anything and anyone. It also includes personal choice regarding how you take care of yourself and your family. If you make poor choices, the bill for fixing those choices should not be passed on to others. Why should I be forced by the government to participate in paying for everyone's health care if I don't want to? I can't currently afford to purchase a new car, should everyone be forced to pay into a system so I can have a new car when I want one? Didn't think so. If you choose not to provide health insurance for your family, don't come crying to me when you can't afford the times you actually decide to see a doctor.Say you got really hurt or sick. Do hospitals have the right to refuse care if they determine that you do not have the financial ability to pay? Private hospitals, yes. Public hospitals, no. Take it back: Private hospitals are required to provide treatment for emergent cases. Once emergent patients are stabilized, they are sent to public hospitals. Jim, I know the law. It was a theoretical question based on one's individual choice to self insure. If one has the right to self insure and choose their own care do doctors have the right to not provide their services without fair compensation? Oh...right...sorry. I'm in way-too-literal mode. But generally speaking, doctors are required to help patients. They swear an oathe to the effect, I believe. |
| 2009-06-25 10:21 AM in reply to: #2242035 |
Expert 937 Traverse Cityish | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan AcesFull - 2009-06-25 10:05 AM You are already involuntarily paying into a system through higher premiums that cover uninsured people when they show up at the hospital. As to your claim that other countries' systems do not work, you need to look at the research and not the pundits. People who live in countries with national healthcare plans (meaning EVERYONE ELSE) by in large LOVE their systems and often ridicule the US for our failure to provide basic coverage to our citizens. They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy. Trust me, folks in Canada and Germany who have to wait six weeks for an MRI for something like a knee injury would like their systems a whole lot less if there were here and could have it done in less than a week. No system is perfect, and while ours is expensive, it's blazing fast and you have choices. Now my tax dollars are going to pay for more things that I don't need. |
 2009-06-25 10:28 AM in reply to: #2242319 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-25 10:28 AM in reply to: #2242361 |
| Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan Nelg - 2009-06-25 11:21 AM AcesFull - 2009-06-25 10:05 AM They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy. You are already involuntarily paying into a system through higher premiums that cover uninsured people when they show up at the hospital. As to your claim that other countries' systems do not work, you need to look at the research and not the pundits. People who live in countries with national healthcare plans (meaning EVERYONE ELSE) by in large LOVE their systems and often ridicule the US for our failure to provide basic coverage to our citizens. So...poor, ignorant foriegners? |
| 2009-06-25 10:42 AM in reply to: #2242335 |
| Elite 2768 Raleigh | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan Indiana_Geoff - 2009-06-25 10:16 AM trigods - 2009-06-25 9:11 AM No I am not... 4 four years I was uninsured by choice and never had to go to the doctor. I never paid a cent to a health care professional or anything to do with the health care system. So no I was not involuntarily paying for anything because I chose not to use the sytem. I could buy into your plan with one condition. When you show up at the hospital with an injury from an accident or with cancer or any other expensive condition a person would have to show proof in insurance or ability to pay in full. You being unable to prove that you can pay for the treatment... would be put on the curb. You willing to accept that as part of your personal finance plan?
Absolutely.... that is basically what a HSA is anyway... you just get tax advantages by doing it the HSA way. It can be done and millions of americans do it every year... it is estimated that out of the 50 million uninsured people of America 2% or so are self insured... |
| 2009-06-25 10:49 AM in reply to: #2241995 |
| Veteran 738 | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan I like my insurance plan. I don't want to pay more simply because someone else does not have insurance and now the government decides it wants to tax me for it (I'm not sure of the threshold yet, but I can imagine it will affect many middle class families). Premiums would rise whether we have social insurance or private insurance, but now there will be a tax, permanently increasing the costs for those using private insurance in a social insurance system. That is not equitable or fair. BO should not say that it is. If you are going to force it, don't say it is equitable, say it is the only way to do it...because that is the truth. Equitable would be everyone always paying their fair share for everything. I hear good and bad things about Canada's healthcare system, cost, etc. I think more transparency and education of the population is needed on the costs and advantages. Afterall BO said he would be transparent, but I'm having trouble looking through that wall. |
| 2009-06-25 11:22 AM in reply to: #2242378 |
| Slower Than You 9566 Cracklantaburbs | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan PennState - 2009-06-25 11:28 AM bcart1991 - 2009-06-25 11:12 AM Of course doctors have the right not to dispense care without compensation. However, their hippocratic oath may put them in a difficult spot now and then. uhhh NO. We have to provide emergent care regardless (and often without) of being paid. There are numerous laws on the books about this. In a private office (not a hospital... public or private) you can reject care, but the patient will go to the ER... and if they call you if you are on-call... by law you must take care of them. True emergencies are not office-based... they are hospital based. We are not allowed to not take care of these patients. It is the law. That's pretty much what I meant. It's also why our ERs are overrun with people whose conditions do not warrant an ER visit. They know they'll get care and can skip out on the bill. |
| 2009-06-25 11:59 AM in reply to: #2242558 |
| Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan bcart1991 - 2009-06-25 12:22 PM That's pretty much what I meant. It's also why our ERs are overrun with people whose conditions do not warrant an ER visit. They know they'll get care and can skip out on the bill. That right there is one of the best arguments for universal health care. Get the non-emergent cases out of the ER and everybody wins. |
| 2009-06-25 12:09 PM in reply to: #2242669 |
| Slower Than You 9566 Cracklantaburbs | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 12:59 PM That right there is one of the best arguments for universal health care. Get the non-emergent cases out of the ER and everybody wins. I disagree. People will almost always look for the cheapest way to get what they need. Having universal health care will be another version the same thing - someone else will foot the bill for their care. We need an alternative. If only there were low-cost or private/charity funded clinics out there... |
| 2009-06-25 12:16 PM in reply to: #2242702 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-25 12:30 PM in reply to: #2242380 |
| Expert 937 Traverse Cityish | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 11:28 AM Nelg - 2009-06-25 11:21 AM AcesFull - 2009-06-25 10:05 AM They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy. You are already involuntarily paying into a system through higher premiums that cover uninsured people when they show up at the hospital. As to your claim that other countries' systems do not work, you need to look at the research and not the pundits. People who live in countries with national healthcare plans (meaning EVERYONE ELSE) by in large LOVE their systems and often ridicule the US for our failure to provide basic coverage to our citizens. So...poor, ignorant foriegners? Interesting inference, you sound prejudiced. So you don't acknowledge that the guy that makes a million a year is paying more taxes than the guy who makes $30k? |
| 2009-06-25 12:34 PM in reply to: #2242783 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by AcesFull 2009-06-25 12:34 PM |
| 2009-06-25 12:34 PM in reply to: #2242702 |
| Expert 937 Traverse Cityish | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan bcart1991 - 2009-06-25 1:09 PM run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 12:59 PM That right there is one of the best arguments for universal health care. Get the non-emergent cases out of the ER and everybody wins. I disagree. People will almost always look for the cheapest way to get what they need. Having universal health care will be another version the same thing - someone else will foot the bill for their care. We need an alternative. If only there were low-cost or private/charity funded clinics out there... Bingo! Canada has zero co-pay for services so if people want to be seen faster, people just go to the emergency room instead of the clinic. There is no deterrence or incentive to keep people on a course of proper use. |
| 2009-06-25 12:44 PM in reply to: #2242796 |
| Expert 937 Traverse Cityish | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan AcesFull - 2009-06-25 1:34 PM Nelg - 2009-06-25 12:30 PM run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 11:28 AM Interesting inference, you sound prejudiced. So you don't acknowledge that the guy that makes a million a year is paying more taxes than the guy who makes $30k? Nelg - 2009-06-25 11:21 AM AcesFull - 2009-06-25 10:05 AM They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy. You are already involuntarily paying into a system through higher premiums that cover uninsured people when they show up at the hospital. As to your claim that other countries' systems do not work, you need to look at the research and not the pundits. People who live in countries with national healthcare plans (meaning EVERYONE ELSE) by in large LOVE their systems and often ridicule the US for our failure to provide basic coverage to our citizens. So...poor, ignorant foriegners? You say this like its a bad thing. No it's perfectly fine, preferred if it were a flat tax table, but that will never happen. I'm just wondering why he's getting down on folks in the lower class or trying to paint me as doing so. It's just steering around the fact certain people just don't pay into the system as much as the wealthy. When people can't argue facts, the personal character digs start. |
| 2009-06-25 12:48 PM in reply to: #2242783 |
| Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan Nelg - 2009-06-25 1:30 PM run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 11:28 AM Interesting inference, you sound prejudiced. So you don't acknowledge that the guy that makes a million a year is paying more taxes than the guy who makes $30k?Nelg - 2009-06-25 11:21 AM AcesFull - 2009-06-25 10:05 AM They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy. You are already involuntarily paying into a system through higher premiums that cover uninsured people when they show up at the hospital. As to your claim that other countries' systems do not work, you need to look at the research and not the pundits. People who live in countries with national healthcare plans (meaning EVERYONE ELSE) by in large LOVE their systems and often ridicule the US for our failure to provide basic coverage to our citizens. So...poor, ignorant foriegners? Wait. What? Did you read what you wrote? "They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy." You didn't imply that the foriegn users of universal health care are ignorant? If not...please correct me. |
| 2009-06-25 12:58 PM in reply to: #2242846 |
| Master 1895 | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 1:48 PM Nelg - 2009-06-25 1:30 PM run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 11:28 AM Interesting inference, you sound prejudiced. So you don't acknowledge that the guy that makes a million a year is paying more taxes than the guy who makes $30k?Nelg - 2009-06-25 11:21 AM AcesFull - 2009-06-25 10:05 AM They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy. You are already involuntarily paying into a system through higher premiums that cover uninsured people when they show up at the hospital. As to your claim that other countries' systems do not work, you need to look at the research and not the pundits. People who live in countries with national healthcare plans (meaning EVERYONE ELSE) by in large LOVE their systems and often ridicule the US for our failure to provide basic coverage to our citizens. So...poor, ignorant foriegners? Wait. What? Did you read what you wrote? "They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy." You didn't imply that the foriegn users of universal health care are ignorant? If not...please correct me. Saying that they don't know any difference is not saying that they are ignorant. You are not stupid if you've only experienced something one way for your entire life. You are implying that Glen is saying they are stupid. If you've only experienced something one way for your entire life then you do not have much to base your opinions on. You may feel like it's fine and you may be happy with it. BUT....there just might be a better way. That doesn't make you stupid or ignorant. It just means you have lacked options/experience and don't know any different. Edited by hamiltks10 2009-06-25 12:59 PM |
| 2009-06-25 1:21 PM in reply to: #2242885 |
| Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan hamiltks10 - 2009-06-25 1:58 PM run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 1:48 PM Nelg - 2009-06-25 1:30 PM run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 11:28 AM Interesting inference, you sound prejudiced. So you don't acknowledge that the guy that makes a million a year is paying more taxes than the guy who makes $30k?Nelg - 2009-06-25 11:21 AM AcesFull - 2009-06-25 10:05 AM They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy. You are already involuntarily paying into a system through higher premiums that cover uninsured people when they show up at the hospital. As to your claim that other countries' systems do not work, you need to look at the research and not the pundits. People who live in countries with national healthcare plans (meaning EVERYONE ELSE) by in large LOVE their systems and often ridicule the US for our failure to provide basic coverage to our citizens. So...poor, ignorant foriegners? Wait. What? Did you read what you wrote? "They like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy." You didn't imply that the foriegn users of universal health care are ignorant? If not...please correct me. Saying that they don't know any difference is not saying that they are ignorant. You are not stupid if you've only experienced something one way for your entire life. You are implying that Glen is saying they are stupid. If you've only experienced something one way for your entire life then you do not have much to base your opinions on. You may feel like it's fine and you may be happy with it. BUT....there just might be a better way. That doesn't make you stupid or ignorant. It just means you have lacked options/experience and don't know any different. "Ignorant" and "stupid" are different. I never said Glen said they were stupid. I said Glen said they were ignorant. Which he did. |
| 2009-06-25 1:39 PM in reply to: #2241995 |
| Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan The only arguments or solutions, if you can call them that are finding ways to turn health care into a right for everyone and trying to find the money to pay for it. I don't think there will ever be enough money to pay for health care coverage for everyone. It appears that everyone also means anyone in the U.S. of A. legally or not. I wish I would hear more about ways to cut costs of health care. Two thoughts I have are; 1. Tort reform, a suggestion on this would be loser pays other party's expenses. 2. With the Federal Government providing so many $$$$'s for medical research IMHO we come up with cures that only folks like Buffet and Gates can afford. I think more of the research needs to be market driven or privately funded though non profits and get the Fed's out of funding Not For Profits. To me health care reform should be that, things that make the free market system more competitive, not just another attempt at the federal gov. to throw money at a problem.
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| 2009-06-25 1:41 PM in reply to: #2242669 |
| Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan run4yrlif - 2009-06-25 11:59 AM bcart1991 - 2009-06-25 12:22 PM That's pretty much what I meant. It's also why our ERs are overrun with people whose conditions do not warrant an ER visit. They know they'll get care and can skip out on the bill. That right there is one of the best arguments for universal health care. Get the non-emergent cases out of the ER and everybody wins. I agree that ^^ is a huge problem and will go a long ways.. but.... That article I mentioned earlier is the one Obama is using to show what is wrong in health care.. how in some areas of the country medicare cost's are 14k per person for care.. while others are less than half that.. Until we get the notion that more care is better care out of our system,, we still have huge problems |
| 2009-06-25 1:42 PM in reply to: #2243016 |
| Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan crusevegas - 2009-06-25 2:39 PM The only arguments or solutions, if you can call them that are finding ways to turn health care into a right for everyone and trying to find the money to pay for it. I don't think there will ever be enough money to pay for health care coverage for everyone. It appears that everyone also means anyone in the U.S. of A. legally or not. I wish I would hear more about ways to cut costs of health care. Two thoughts I have are; 1. Tort reform, a suggestion on this would be loser pays other party's expenses. 2. With the Federal Government providing so many $$$$'s for medical research IMHO we come up with cures that only folks like Buffet and Gates can afford. I think more of the research needs to be market driven or privately funded though non profits and get the Fed's out of funding Not For Profits. To me health care reform should be that, things that make the free market system more competitive, not just another attempt at the federal gov. to throw money at a problem.
I'll add: 3. Encouraging preventive care. The same way frequent oil changes save you money in the long run, catching problems and treating them early will save money down the road. 4. As mentioned earlier, get non-emergent cases out of the ER. |
| 2009-06-25 1:44 PM in reply to: #2242361 |
| Master 1641 Seattle, California | Subject: RE: The new BO health care plan Nelg - 2009-06-25 8:21 AMThey like their systems because they don't know any better and they think it's free when it really comes out of the taxes of the middle class and wealthy. Trust me, folks in Canada and Germany who have to wait six weeks for an MRI for something like a knee injury would like their systems a whole lot less if there were here and could have it done in less than a week. No system is perfect, and while ours is expensive, it's blazing fast and you have choices. Now my tax dollars are going to pay for more things that I don't need. I don't know any better? Seriously... Do know that you pay more per capita for health care in the US then we do in Canada. More of your tax dollars pay for health care then mine. And added to that Canadians know perfectly well that they pay taxes for the health care they get and we don't consider it free. That comment is insulting. And no I don't trust you. I would gladly wait 6 weeks for an MRI for something non life treatening if it means that all of my fellow citizens have access to health care. We are a privlaged country with a high standard of living. The least we can do for our citizens who help build and shape this country is let them live thier lives knowing that when they need care it wont bankrupt them. Some take advantage but most people are good people who make our country the great nation that it is. There will always be those that take advantage. You can design your system to punish them or have faith that most people are honest and want whats best for themselves and their neighbour (which is more often the not the same thing). |
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