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HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! (Page 2)
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 2005-08-31 7:03 PM in reply to: #238438 |
Elite  3022   Preferably on my bike somewhere |  Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!mikericci - 2005-08-31 6:09 PM Can you be more specific with your question? Maybe lay out what you have in mind for the next 9 days? Well, you got me there. I'm doing a 5k (my first race of any sort - other than sailing) on Sept 10th. My plan was to try to run 3 miles every other day, increasing pace and sweat level with each day. I figured I'd do that Today - 3 miles, reg. pace, Friday - 3 miles, increase pace Sunday - increased pace Tuesday - 2 miles, easy pace Wednesday - 2 miles, easy pace Thursday and Friday - rest Saturday - race I have tended to try to keep the same pace throughout my runs. I started at 2 miles of walk/run about 2 months ago, now I am doing 3 miles of jogging at a 11-11.5 min/mile. I have been able to finish strong - 80%sprint the final 1/4 mile. Today - I tried to vary my pace a bit - first day with HRM and decent running watch so I could do some intervals. |
| 2005-08-31 8:14 PM in reply to: #238477 |
8763    Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! But now you will change the strategy right? NOW, you will do things the way correct way, right D.Z.? 1 longer day - 40 minuntes - no higher than the top of Z1 (friday) 1 faster day - 10 minute warm up/10 minutes fast/10 cool down - 10 wu and cd are Zone1-2 - 10 minutes hard are Z4-5 (Sunday) 20 minutes - mid Z2 run. No higher. Tuesday 15 minutes - mid Z2 - Thursday Friday off Saturday - race! |
| 2005-08-31 8:50 PM in reply to: #237705 |
Expert 725 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! OK, I sucked it up and did an LT run test this evening. pant, pant, pant. Not sure if I really got it right, but it's where I'm gonna start. I ended up with an average HR of 153. I looked up the zones in the training bible. Now, what do I do with all this valuable information? I was training in what I thought was Z3 for my LSD runs (one hour), turns out that was more like Z2. For my short runs (1/2 hour), I was going for interval training (my version anyway) that ends up moving between top of Z5a and bottom of Z3. Is this a reasonably good plan for my runs? My next race in 9/18, sprint distance. I typically can get one long and one short run in each week. I also do similar 1 long and 1 short bike and swim each week as well as weight training 3x per week. |
| 2005-08-31 9:25 PM in reply to: #237705 |
Champion 8766 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! If I might jump on the 'Ask Mike HR Questions' bandwagon.... Let's say, your season is winding down and doing LT tests isn't really going to do anything for you right now. Maybe you have too many races to fit in a LT test or you just have LSD events remaining...or whatever. But you want to incorporate HR into your training for next season...how do you do it? Do you do LT tests once your season is over and try to maintain that LT over the off season? Or do you wait til you've started to build up your base for next season and work on it from there? Meaning, no LT tests til the beginning of 2006? I mean...ya GOTTA take an off season or at least a few off months to let your body rebound, right? If that was the case, it wouldn't make much sense to do an LT test right at the end of your season immediately before the 'resting months'.....or would it? As usual...I doubt my question makes ANY sense...but I hope it did... |
| 2005-08-31 9:51 PM in reply to: #238616 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! I still owe you an email and I will reply to it, sorry Jennifer. To answer your question - there is ALWAYS time for a good old fashioned kick ass test! You don't just keep training easy all the time do you? You must have one more hard workout scheduled, unless of course you are doing IM next week in WI or the one in Canada. So - I reccomend testing each month, to see the changes, to challenge yourself and to see if your training is working. BUT, let's say we use your example and you there is NO WAY you can do an LT test from now until the end of the year - let's say you are going to the moon (that is the only reason I can think of besides you are not ready for a test or you are injured). So, you have your big race coming up and you are going to take some time off after that (time off? What?) anyway - don't you want to know what shape you were in during 2005 to compare it to once you get in shape in 2006? I would want to know my LT. Do I maintain my LT over my break - of course not. I take a few weeks off, and let my body recover. My trick to staying fit for so long though, just to let you in on a little secret is that I am never really out of running shape. Yes, I stop running for two weeks each year and after any IM or marathon races. But, when I start up again, I can still run for an hour or 7-8 miles whatever it is, even if its 10 minute miles. That is a mind set folks, and that is I don't want to lose my run fitness. Call it runner's pride or whatever, but I try not to get out of running shape. As a matter of fact, I have already started base training for 2006. My time off for 2005 off season is already over believe it or not. Anyway, back to the question - your question makes sense - but do the LT test so you can compare it to your LT test next year. It will help you compare your fitness level from year to year. I hope ALL THAT makes sense! |
| 2005-09-01 7:42 AM in reply to: #237705 |
Extreme Veteran 371 Montreal | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! Mike, I have a question about the pace (mainly for running) at which the LT test must be done. I understand the initial 10 minutes, but what about the pace for the last 20 minutes? Should I go all out right at the start of the 20 minutes? I don't want to run out of energy after 10 minutes? Should I start at a higher pace and really go all out for the last 5 minutes? I have been training for about 8 months now building my base, so I rarely run at LT, staying in zone 1 and zone 2. I know my base is starting to be pretty good and I want to start training in higher zones, but I am not sure how to pace myself to sustain the same level of effort over the 20 minutes. This is a concern because I once tried to do a shorter run (30 minutes) at a much higher pace. I had started too fast and I couldn't get thru the run. Patrick Edited by p4406 2005-09-01 7:44 AM |
| 2005-09-01 9:58 AM in reply to: #238721 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! Patrick Running hard for 30 minutes is tough. If it were easy, more people would do it right? :-) So - start out at a solid clip, something with a lot of effort, but an effort that you should be able to pick up at any point. If you think in terms of a scale of 1-10 (10 being the hardest) you would run the initial 10 minutes at level 6-7, then the 20 minutes at like 8-9 with 10 being at the end. After doing this test a few times, you will get better at gauging your effort and it will get easier to sustain that very hard effort for the entire time. I hope this makes sense and it helps you with your test. |
| 2005-09-01 10:03 AM in reply to: #237705 |
Extreme Veteran 371 Montreal | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! Mike, Thanks. That's exactly the info I needed. The scale from 1 to 10 gives me a better idea of the pace. Patrick |
| 2005-09-01 10:13 AM in reply to: #238588 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! Nuke_Angel Great job! I am glad you went out and did it! Woo hoo! Congrats. It's tough, isn't it? Avg HR of 15: Zones are as follows: Z1 100-122 Z2 123-136 Z3 137-142 Z4 143-152 Z5 153-156 Z2 is what you want for LSD - so you were doing that right perfect. Z3 is what you want to stay AWAY from - Z 1-2 or Z4-5 - that is where we train for now. Experienced athletes or guys racing a 1/2 IM can train in Z3. For most of though, it's Z1-2 and then Z4-5 (race pace). So Keep the faster - (I am guessing tempo?) running at Z4/5. No need for Z3. I wish you could run more often but if that is all you can do, it'll have to work. So run either slow (Z1-2) or run fast (Z4-5) - no need to run in between for now. Good Luck! |
| 2005-09-01 3:47 PM in reply to: #237705 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! If anyone wants to a calculator to figure out their zones you can use the attachment. Attachments ---------------- HR Zones.xls (18KB - 941 downloads) |
| 2005-09-01 7:16 PM in reply to: #238812 |
Expert 725 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! mikericci - 2005-09-01 10:13 AM I wish you could run more often but if that is all you can do, it'll have to work. So run either slow (Z1-2) or run fast (Z4-5) - no need to run in between for now. Good Luck! Let's pursue this a little further. My total training time right now is 10.5 hours - 1.5 running (1/2 hour run and 1 hour run), 1.5 swimming (1/2 hour swim and 1 hour swim), 3 biking(1 hour bike and 2 hour bike), 1.5 weight training (3 1/2 hour sessions). I've been doing weight training with a personal trainer 3x per week since March last year. I lost 40 pounds last year with that weight training. So I'm kind of attached to it  I need to lose at least 40 more pounds.How should I adjust this? |
| 2005-09-01 8:10 PM in reply to: #237705 |
Veteran 340 Greenville, NC | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! so what is the correlation between LT and MaxHR? I ask because I know what my MHR is (192) and I've always believed that Anaerobic and LT thresholds were close but not super close to each other. Say somewhere btwn 85-90% for LT and 95% for Anaerobic. I just don't see how your LT test can be accurate. I know I can run near my anaerobic threshold for longer than 20 minutes cause my HRM will show an average of 92-95% for the the last 25-35 minutes of a race. This would put my LT higher than it really should be, wouldn't it? I've always assumed that barring a blood draw to determine actual LT, using a training method devised from MaxHR is more accurate. Doesn't all this zone based training just take the fun out of it? I have so much more fun when I leave the gear at home and just run. (OK more fun if I take my iPod) |
| 2005-09-01 8:13 PM in reply to: #239246 |
Master 1641 Cambridge, MA | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! This is all very fascinating, but as one of the probably 0.01% of the triathlete populuation without a continuous HR monitor, I only know that the highest instantaneous HR readout I've seen is 183. Given that I'm age 31, that sounds pretty close to the approximated guess of Max HR using the hokey little formula. I'd like to borrow a HR monitor from my gym and try a LT test on a spin bike for comparison, but haven't done so yet. Assuming I will, the tips on testing for LT threashold and the spreadsheet for the HR Zones are helpful. But in the end...I know how I'll train: by RPE (rate of perceived exertion) and feel. HR monitors provide just too much data for this woman already drowned in data. I'd get numbers obsessed and start to lose the enjoyment of my training. I'll be darned if I'm staring down at a HRM while out running or riding, and swimming? Forget it. RPE is what works for me. But thanks to all, and to Mike esp. for the very interesting thread. Seriously good stuff! Cheers, -Sunny |
| 2005-09-01 8:27 PM in reply to: #238641 |
Champion 8766 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! That makes sense. Boy, you are a slave driver though But...looks like a worthwhile endeavor to keep up with fitness. So after my HIM next weekend I will do some 'testing'. Bike I don't mind...swim I don't mind...but I REALLY hate wearing that HRM on runs. Does nothing but chafe the heck out of me. Any of your female athletes share any ideas with you about how to avoid that problem? I know I won't be able to wear it for anything longer than 3-5 miles. Long runs? Forget it...I like my skin thank you....but...open to ideas! Maybe there is a method I haven't tried yet. As for maintaining over the winter...good advice. If I don't need knee surgery post season (it's a possibility) I'll think about it |
| 2005-09-01 9:50 PM in reply to: #239246 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! It sounds like your plan is working, why would you want to adjust anything? What is your weakness for sake of argument? |
| 2005-09-01 9:53 PM in reply to: #239304 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! have you heard of body glide ? Even us guys chafe and have issues too, so body glide is a good problem solver for most. You need time off, no doubt, but at the same time, you don't want to lose ALL that fitness that you gained and then work your butt off again to get it back. If you EVER feel burned out, do what I do. I take a few days off and eat whatever I want. And I don't train again until I really want to train. Sometimes it's 3 days, sometimes it's 3 weeks - it all depends. But I take natural breaks...and it helps me stay sane. |
| 2005-09-01 9:56 PM in reply to: #239294 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! I agree that RPE is very important to your training - but if you don't know you are over training then you can get serious burnout, injured or you stop improving. What a HRM is great for is to track data to follow later - so you know how hard you are training w/numbers and when you reach plateaus you will know what you need to change in your training. I think it's smart to use a HRM, you don't have to live by it, but if the technology is there, I say use it! |
| 2005-09-01 10:05 PM in reply to: #239291 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! I have an idea of my LT to Max HR - but to be honest I don't care much about my Max HR - it's insignificant to me. I don't ever want to see my max HR, period. Unless I am a track sprinter, why would I ever train that hard? Can you define Anaerobic Threshold and Lactate Threshold? The 30' minute test has been in use for years. Your theoretical LT is 60 minutes. But for simplicity we use 30' and adjust the LT % accordingly. It's very hard to get the average guy out there to run or bike hard for 60' - and it's tough to get them to do that for 30' too! I believe that a blood draw is best too. I have been tested numerous times in the lab and with the 30' test and the numbers are within 1 beat of each other. I have seen this with all of my athletes as well. As we say in racing, the numbers don't lie. Sometimes training by zones may take the fun out of it, but I was seeing so many posts about people using 220-Age and I felt that had to be stopped. My original post was to point athletes in the right direction - not to say my method is the end-all - I just know it's better than the 220-age formula. There are many days I just run. No watch, no ipod, just me and an endless trail! Ahh, those are the days. :-) |
| 2005-09-02 12:02 AM in reply to: #237705 |
Champion 6931 Bellingham, Washington | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! As a 47 year old, using that 220-age method, leaves me with a bunch of low zones...173 should be my max.. But during a 7 mile trail run that was my ave almost and I hit 188 on two of the uphill climbs. I've been wanting to head over to the track and run the 3 mile workout to get a new group of HR Zones......Just hasn't happened yet. |
| 2005-09-02 7:21 AM in reply to: #239357 |
Expert 725 Wilmington, NC | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! mikericci - 2005-09-01 9:50 PM It sounds like your plan is working, why would you want to adjust anything? What is your weakness for sake of argument? Presume this was directed at me. Plan is working OK. I'm a definite BOPer - first year racing, I don't really care. I'm usually DFL in swimming, do best in the bike, and somewhere in between on the run. but all three are WELL back into the pack. My season is almost done. Last race is Sept. 18, so I'm not going to make any big changes now. I'm mostly considering what I might do for next year. |
| 2005-09-02 8:46 AM in reply to: #239463 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! nuke angel - it was for you. I would continue with what you are doing now - then reassess and see where most of your improvement can come from - sounds like the swim could use some work - so you focus on that for the next few months (maybe Nov/Dec) - swim 3x -5x per week, and see how much that helps. Just maintain the other sports in the meantime - once your season is over, shoot me an email or post something here and we'll lay out a week for you and what it should look like. |
| 2005-09-02 9:34 AM in reply to: #237705 |
| , Texas | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! Mike, Do you have any experience with the Suunto T6 HRM? It can fairly accurately determine your Ventillation (Ve) and Oxygen Consumption (Vo2) during exercise. I believe these are the same parameters used in the metabolic Lab test in which the mask is worn (ie no pricking for blood). Once known, a plot can be made to find where the Ve/Vo2 plot bends which marks the LT and then find the HR from the Vo2. As a new runner/triathlete and a numbers geek, I'm facinated by this and decided to buy a T6 instead of getting periodic lab tests. I have my second tri in about 1 month, but during the Winter, I'm going to perform different tests to see how this thing does. |
| 2005-09-02 9:43 AM in reply to: #239577 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! camy I 'may' have heard of this one, or read about it. My Polar does the same too - it predicts my VO2 - pretty neat. I still think the blood test is the only way you really know as you learning the exact HR that your body is no longer buffering lactate and this in turn will tell you what HRs you should train in. Science is making leaps and bounds with all types of new gadgets - who knows, the HRM you have may actually be fairly accurate. Good luck with your 2nd tri coming up! |
| 2005-09-02 9:57 AM in reply to: #237705 |
| , Texas | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! Mike, Comparing the Polar to the T6 here is an apples to oranges comparison. The T6 measures the time between each and every heartbeat and records it. Then, it uses some algorithm from a medical research company to calculate the Ventilation, Resporatory Rate, O2 consumption, and some others. These are calculated and may be graphed over the entire workout, not just a rest-test that spits out some number. |
| 2005-09-02 10:13 AM in reply to: #239604 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! I have to be honest here. I am skeptical of a watch than calculate a VO2 without taking actual expired respiration. The same thing with the Polar - it just a calculated guess. Nothing beats a lab test for cold hard data and facts. If you truly want to know your LT, then get a blood lactate test. A VO2 is great to 'know' but its just a number that is determined 80% genetically. I know my VO2 - but it doesn't change the way I train or what I think I can do. My LT is very important to the overall training plan however and that is what I use. |
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