Speaking of being sentenced to death... it's not so bad. (Page 2)

Shawshank Redemption was a fictional dramatic movie with the message of never giving up hope.

And if you are prepared for that riot I see no issue with that.  It's punishment.  It's not supposed to be fun.  It's supposed to suck.

And if you are prepared for that riot I see no issue with that.  It's punishment.  It's not supposed to be fun.  It's supposed to suck.

So, Joe the Thief gets busted on a B&E, and goes to prison for a few years. He sits in a hot cell 23 hours a day, with nothing but time on his hands. He probably had few skills in the first place (which is why his best choice in life was B&E), but he is not going to get a chance to build up his skills or education. When he comes out, all he has is anger at the world that treats him like an animal, no better skill sets to get along in the world, and the names of a bunch of new prison buddies to plan more mischief with. Sounds like a plan to have a revolving door back to being incarcerated.

If anything, that approach would make more sense for your white collar criminals. People who had options and skills, and threw them away in a narcissistic and self-entitled fashion. They at least would leave prison still having the skills that enabled them to reach a white collar position in the first place, and hopefully a strong desire to never return to the empty years of prison life.

So, Joe the Thief gets busted on a B&E, and goes to prison for a few years. He sits in a hot cell 23 hours a day, with nothing but time on his hands. He probably had few skills in the first place (which is why his best choice in life was B&E), but he is not going to get a chance to build up his skills or education. When he comes out, all he has is anger at the world that treats him like an animal, no better skill sets to get along in the world, and the names of a bunch of new prison buddies to plan more mischief with. Sounds like a plan to have a revolving door back to being incarcerated.

If anything, that approach would make more sense for your white collar criminals. People who had options and skills, and threw them away in a narcissistic and self-entitled fashion. They at least would leave prison still having the skills that enabled them to reach a white collar position in the first place, and hopefully a strong desire to never return to the empty years of prison life.

What?  Not a documentary...?

....or he realizes that jail is pretty damn bad.  He was bored out of his mind.  He did not get to watch TV.  He was hot.  He had crappy food.  He did not get to talk to his buddies while in jail or play basketball or turn himself into the Hulk lifting weights everyday.

...and realizes that he never wants to go back there.

Make something bad enough and people will not want to experience it again.

As for the bolded so now we are classifying the criminal by his POTENTIAL to succeed?  No, they are both criminals.  Both should be punished.

...

....or he realizes that jail is pretty damn bad.  He was bored out of his mind.  He did not get to watch TV.  He was hot.  He had crappy food.  He did not get to talk to his buddies while in jail or play basketball or turn himself into the Hulk lifting weights everyday.

...and realizes that he never wants to go back there.

Make something bad enough and people will not want to experience it again.

As for the bolded so now we are classifying the criminal by his POTENTIAL to succeed?  No, they are both criminals.  Both should be punished.

No, what I am saying is that if you expect the person to come out of prison and STAY out of prison, they will need a skill set that enables them to succeed. Maybe my goals are different than yours, but I do not want to see someone repeatedly doing the things that got them in jail in the first place. I want to see them manage to become more successful, get a job, and pay taxes, so they are putting into society instead of taking out.

Which is why if you intend to implement a harsh prison, it makes more sense to do it for someone who at least has marketable skills to fall back on. I am not advocating it for either criminal, just pointing out the inherent risks of not trying to rehabilitate.

 So are you in favor of mandatory rehab, mandatory schooling and mandatory job training while in prison? Fill the prisoner's day with meetings, classes and workshops? I think you're on to something if you are insisting on filling the prisoner's day with places to be and holding him accountable for his actions. Otherwise, he isn't going to do more than the bare minimum. That's why he's in prison in the first place, he's not responsible or accountable for any of his actions. How do you force a person that's skilled in gaming the system into being accountable in order to rehab him? 

You don't let him out until he is.

No, what I am saying is that if you expect the person to come out of prison and STAY out of prison, they will need a skill set that enables them to succeed. Maybe my goals are different than yours, but I do not want to see someone repeatedly doing the things that got them in jail in the first place. I want to see them manage to become more successful, get a job, and pay taxes, so they are putting into society instead of taking out.

Which is why if you intend to implement a harsh prison, it makes more sense to do it for someone who at least has marketable skills to fall back on. I am not advocating it for either criminal, just pointing out the inherent risks of not trying to rehabilitate.

Our current system does not give them skills.  Nor rehabilitate.  At least in my scenario prison would be a horrible place to which you'd not want to return.

If you get caught. Most criminals believe they are not going to get caught. So unless you propose to either keep them locked up until they die or become so broken down they pose no threats, they will get out, and still lack skills, having had plenty of time to think about how much of a sh*-hole the world is. And then they want to get revenge on the world.

Now you're catching on...

There are plenty of people with no skills who don't commit crimes.

"Skills" can mean things like showing up on time for your job, every day, on time, while dressed appropriately. Knowing how to treat co-workers and customers that you will encounter. Yes, pushing a mop may take a special "skill" like knowing how to build a cabinet or perform brain surgery. But those are skills I see lacking in some, who are going to be unlikely to hold a job.

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I agree with this assessment.  However I hold the belief that some people are just never going to learn these basic survival skills.  They are essentially unteachable (usually do to attitude more so than intelligence).  A lot of that probably stems from their childhood and lack of parenting but now that they are adults no amount of "rehabilitation" is going to fix that.  IMO the only way to force them into line is to make the alternative so horrible that they will learn how to fake these basic skills good enough to prevent from going back to prison.

I'll often have parents of teenagers on my adolescent unit ask me how I know a kid is really doing better and not just "faking it". I point out that in order to "fake it", you have to (a) know what is expected and (b) be willing and able to conform your behaviors to the expectations. If you are faking it, in other words, you are doing it - i.e. doing well enough to function. And if you stop faking it, you go back (in my cases, to the inpatient unit; in the cases of prisoners, back to jail). 

Basically, what I am saying here is that "faking skills good enough" means, in part, having those skills. I am not completely disagreeing that some people will never gain those skills, and for the protection of society at large, they should stay locked up. I am saying that making prison more horrible is not going to add any benefit, and may have the opportunity cost of giving some people a more useful skill set.

...

I guess we have to agree to disagree.  Not sure either one of us can make our respective points any clearer.  Time for beers now..

My daughter got me some nice trappist ales in a box set with a glass. It's very tasty.