A part of the health care reform bill you may have missed... (Page 2)

It's government regulation that gave us the current health care system we have. Government regulation gives us the current corporate structure we have. Government regulation gives us the current Wall Street structure we have... but when it all falls apart, somehow government regulation, intervention, or take over is the only way to fix it. Mind blowing.

I haven't said that corporations are evil. What I AM saying is that corporations exist to make money for the stockholders. That is generally accepted wisdom, even within the business world (mrs gearboy and I had a number of arguments about this when she was getting her MBA  - that the primary goal is maximize return on investment to the investors).

If the company also does a decent job, that is just gravy. A company doesn't have to be the best, it just has to create the perception that it is doing a good job, or that the product is a must-have. As Aces pointed out, the person who ends up BUYING health care insurance is NOT the person USING it. So, for the business owner, a cheaper product makes sense. For the investor, better returns make sense. Who gets shafted? The person who needs to obtain healthcare. 

One of the ways I always lose when I am doing a review with the insurance doc to get services covered is when he/she tells me "I agree clinically that what you are doing is appropriate/necessary, but our company does not cover that" or "It does not meet the company's criteria for that service". If it's not covered, it's not covered. And either the patient goes without or the hospital eats the bill.

I still don't see the "monopoly" you are talking about. If all the insurance companies have decided to provide OB care, it is win-win for them. They take your premium, knowing they will never need to pay it out. That's pure gravy for them; and given that the number of companies that will want NO OB care is going to be pretty small, why should they offer a service that hardly anyone wants, when making you pay for it is pure profit.

Hey, a point of agreement! Now you are just one or two steps away from the single payer model...

That's fair. There are plenty of bad examples. Then you have the whole corporate raider thing just to gain profit to sell off and gut...

All I'm saying is corporations do not exist in a vacuum. They can't just crank out profits out of thin air. In the end, if people want to do bad things, and have bad intentions, then they will. People can game the private system for personal gain... but the same holds true for the government too. You seem to imply that in certain situations government is better... but in the end it is all run by people. If we have lost control of corporations, then that is our fault and our governments. It can easily be argued that we have lost control of our government and it is not any better of a solution to some of our problems. Politicians in DC can rig the game how ever they please.

The government is supposed to level the playing field and set the rules for a fair and just system for individuals, companies, and markets to thrive. What ever system we have now is exactly what the people, the elected official, and laws put into place. It did not just magically appear.

For my business with 12 employees I've got a Blue Cross PPO plan with a $1500 individual deductible and $3000 family deductible:

My costs as the business owner:
Individual - $409.83
Child - 307.37
Spouse + Child - $737.69

So, my most expensive person is Me (Wife with 3 kids) and I'm paying $1147.52/mo. as the business.  For my employees I pay 100% of their premium if they're single and 50% of the premium that exceeds $409.83 if they're married.  So out of pocket for my married employees with kids is around the $370 mark for premiums.

Those numbers can go up quickly if I drop the deductibles or go with a higher end plan.  I also agree with your frustration because for me personally I'm paying $13,770.24 per year (company and individual combined) and other than a handful of routine dr. visits we cost the insurance nothing.  My son just recently went to a PT for some knee pain and several sessions cost me over $1300 out of pocket.  It was submitted to insurance but it all went to the deductible, so no insurance help there.  uggh

Oh, you'll love this too.  Last year I only had 9 employees so Blue Cross did what they call individual underwriting where each person's rate was different based on age/kids/health, etc...  My rate was $1695.49 per month with the same deductible and coverage.  That's $20,345.88 for the year.  When I hit 10 employees I was able to go to a "composite rate" which dropped everyones premiums by more than 30%.  Just because I hired 2 people???  WTF

So, I know I side with the anti ACA crowd, but its not because I think our current insurance situation is great.  It is not.  I just see ACA as the government trying to overlay a bunch of crap on top of the already broken system so I'll have to continue paying my outrageous insurance premiums and pay more taxes.

The mandated coverage isn't a monopoly thing, it's the state mandating that all insurance companies cover service X, Y, or Z.  Therefore removing my consumer (or my business's) choice to choose a plan that doesn't cover those programs if they don't apply to me.

one small step for gearboy, one giant leap for tuwood...

(I didn't explain that well.)

Yes, but they quote you a rate based on your state.  Bush's proposal was to allow groups (even small businesses to band together) and get the same rate across multiple states.

I think we HAVE lost control of the government, in that getting elected and then re-elected takes a TON of money. Politicians spend most of their time raising money. An insane amount of money. I was listening to a podcast (I think it was Freakonomics) where they were discussing how a congressman needs to raise on the order of $10k A DAY; and how the party machines (on both sides of the aisle) set quotas and expectations based on seniority and committee memberships, and so on. The easiest way to raise big money is from big donors, which means corporations. Who end up basically writing the legislation for their own regulations.

To me, that is the definition of losing control of government by the people. It is a "corporatocracy". As it is, corporations spend money learning to control consumer behaviors (like buying this soda instead of that one). 

I agree - none of this arose in a vacuum. But I guess the question is whether you believe we are more likely to regain control of corporations or of government.

I swear to god the Mayans were right.  Every day gearboy and I agree more.  This cannot be good for the universe.

The Podcast was This American Life, and it sickened me.  I always knew about stuff like this but to hear congressmen and women come out and say "yeah my job is to raise money and get re-elected" it made me just give up on our government.

It was a nice country while it lasted. And it might limp along for another 50-100 years.  But it's F.U.B.A.R.ed... (look it up).  I weep for my children and grandkids.

Ya, I listened to that pod cast... at least one that was linked here a while back about raising money.

Honesty.. I do not think we will regain control of either. They are the same. (R)s are big business, and (D)s are big government. I honestly think we are past the point of no return. Nothing will change short of a major calamity... global natural disaster, global economic melt down. Those things will happen, just maybe not in my time. But the tail is now wagging the dog.

And I really don't mean that in a doom and gloom sort of way. Never before has the planet had 6 billion people. Never before has civilization had a global economy. It's not like we have a manual for this. It is only natural for power to end up in the hands of the few. The bigger we get, the larger the disconnect becomes.

I guess I should stop arguing politics. It really does not matter. Perhaps a few good things are done here and there, but overall big Busiment is not doing what is best for me.

Oh wow. I initially started to post it as TAL, then thought it was Freakonomics. It clearly is the end of times when our thoughts and tastes are started to sync. OK, lay down odds - zombiepocalypse, robot uprising, or alien invasion?

zombiepocalypse all the way

Remember, my company builds robotic workcells.  We know how to handle robots if that's going to be the way it goes.

(We also know how to start the uprising....)  I for one welcome our new robotic overlords...

This is probably the best idea.  If you think about it we probably are all aligned on 95% of issues.  And even on the 5% where we all disagree we're probably, for the most part, not too far removed.

Except for Aces that pinko-commie...

It's really the gov't we should all be ticked off at... so grab your torches and pitchforks... who's with me... ARRRGHHHH!

The only solution is to take back power from the Federal government and give it to the States where we MIGHT stand a better chance on keeping an eye on it. At least we would have 50 small monsters instead of one gigantic bohemeth.

Well ya, we agree on that too... Even left field thinks Aces is out there...

Or.. it does not have to be some catastrophic collapse... this could just be the beginning of the long slide into mediocrity. The eventual contraction that all empires have experienced. Perhaps we are like a regular person... fat and slow, and our best days are behind us. I would sure like to think that is not the case.

Trisquared, gearboy, TuWood, and Powerman......what a damn disappointment you all are.  This thread had such potential as a haymaker.....and what do you offer???  Nothing!  You have almost reached agreement......such a waste. 

It's late, I'm sure I can get back to my obstinate self after some sleep. Nighty nite.

lol, sorry.  I did just get done cleaning my guns.  Hopefully that gives me some "righty" points.