Detroit files Chapter 9

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Subject: RE: Detroit files Chapter 9

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by switch I hope none of them are counting on social security...yikes!

From what I understand they didn't even pay into Social Security because they were on the government pension. So, they are flat out hosed.

I worked for MCI about 15 years ago and had a great job. They had great benefits, a retirement plan, and pretty good stock option programs.
I knew a lot of people there that had their entire retirement wrapped into the company and ultimately lost everything when they went under.

I was still young enough that I didn't really have much of anything invested, but after the Worldcom acquisition and ultimate company demise I realized that as a responsible individual I cannot rely on ANY company or entity to provide for my retirement.

I feel horrible for the people in Detroit who are affected by this, and I don't in any way blame them. If my boss said, hey I want to give you twice the benefits and twice the pay I would have taken it every time. I blame the corrupt politicians and Union bosses who pushed for these unsustainable contracts that ultimately led to everyone's demise.

You relying on your self for your retirement is putting money under your mattress. If your retirement is based on investments in real estate, stock market, or bonds... you most certainly are relying on some one else for your retirement.

To a point, but there are some investments that have less risk than others. If we are at a point where all the investment strategies in your list fail investors, that paper money under the mattress will be worthless too. Guns and ammo, bro

Now that's what I'm talking about. I knew I liked you for some reason. ;-)

I'm no gun "nut," but I think guns and ammo are a reasonable investment and should at least be considered as part of a plan--just like land (especially with water access), bonds, stocks and cold hard cash. Many would add gold to that list, but I haven't yet.

Aren't you supposed to have some cans of green beans too....and a bug-out bag....and lots of tin foil?

Don't start with me punk. What's a "bug out bag"?

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Subject: RE: Detroit files Chapter 9

Some bag that you can grab on your way out the door that will apparently hold everything you need to continue your paranoia into the new world order.

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Subject: RE: Detroit files Chapter 9

Originally posted by Left BrainSome bag that you can grab on your way out the door that will apparently hold everything you need to continue your paranoia into the new world order.

I don't think anything I've said makes me paranoid. The stuff I do and plan for will be good for me (and my children's' chikdrens' children) regardless of what happens to our economy. I don't lose anything by having diverse assetts and skills.

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Subject: RE: Detroit files Chapter 9

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left BrainSome bag that you can grab on your way out the door that will apparently hold everything you need to continue your paranoia into the new world order.

I don't think anything I've said makes me paranoid. The stuff I do and plan for will be good for me (and my children's' chikdrens' children) regardless of what happens to our economy. I don't lose anything by having diverse assetts and skills.

You asked me what a bug-out bag was.

Elite

6387

Subject: RE: Detroit files Chapter 9

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by powerman

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Moonrocket

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by velocomp

What bothers me most is no one will learn anything from this. The government gets a do over. Citizens see things get better. Employees will see only a little change until they retire. And through all this will probably blame the gov. for screwing them out of their money, rather than understanding that it was their fault. Ultimately only some employees will be hurt and no one is ever held accountable.

Sad...

I obviously don't know all the details on this, but from what I'm reading I suspect the employees will be hurt a lot on this. I'm guessing people who are currently retired will have a massive cut of their pension to the point of having to go back to work. There will likely be heavy layoffs that were not possible due to contracts in place outside of BK and the benefits packages will likely be slashed heavily as well for the same reason.

I do agree with you that nobody will be held accountable and that all the people who are truly at fault will successfully blame everyone else for the issues.

Here's an article form yesterday discussing these very cuts:

Detroit's workers and retirees face big cuts

The scariest thing about that article is the comments. It seems nobody has any compassion for their fellow man anymore. People who had a contract and planned their lives around it are being screwed and the commenters seem to think they deserve it. I fear in this race to the bottom we have going on right now. Rather than people seeing other people having something they don't as an opportunity or something to aspire to they just want to grab them and pull them down to the level they are at. Comments like I don't have a pension why should they? I have crappy health insurance- and it works for me- give them that. Do we just want everyone to have a crappy life? It's pretty sad.

All the perks of a selfish society in moral decline.

I myself love to throw out blanket statements about stuff I do not know... but this one is tricky for me. I am a non-union municipal worker. I do not pay SS and have a defined benefit retirement. As usual, folks around here love to take shots at the lavish retirement I have and it is a usual target. I will agree it is "lavish" in the sense it is a defined benefit plan which most in America no longer have.

I pay 8% for it and my employer matches it. Yet, I am underpaid compared to my counter parts right down the road. That is the sacrifice... lower pay, for a better retirement. I can quite today and work down the road and make at least 10% more. And, unlike most pension plans, mine is very well managed, and very well funded. During the down turn benefits were cut and cost were increased and it was solvent the entire time, and still is today.

So where I am going with this is it is once again under attack by a conservative Mayor, and the usual talking points are thrown out, and they are 100% false. I usually will talk bad about unions and their unrealistic retirements and benefits. I myself do not expect, or want, something for nothing... pay me my market value, and I will make my decision from there. And I have made mine, I will sacrifice money today, for better retirement later.

But when folks have made that decision, and they have an agreement with an employer... then that is what it is. You can't just take it from them. I have no idea what Detroit's retirement plan is and how realistic the unions benefits were.... but this is a fine example for me of where all this conservative/liberal, capitalist/union stuff clashes... and it is not always cut and dried.

Excellent post. I too believe people should get what they're promised and on the flip side I think governments should be able to adjust things when things don't work out as planned. I think what you described is exactly that, where the city/state has had the flexibility to change things around to keep them solvent. I chuckle when I read about the Unions wanting to sue the city because they "can't" reduce their benefits due to agreed upon contracts and laws that were put in place to protect them. /facepalm Seriously dudes, what part of they don't have any money do you not understand?

I know here in Omaha we have had a lot of issues with the Police/Fire union contracts because former Mayors and City Councils had rewarded them heavily for their political support. There were many rank and file cops who were "spiking" their pay the final year working 60-80 hour weeks to make their pay that year be something like $200k. Then their retirement package was based on a multiple of their highest paid year. So the net effect was all these cops retiring after 20 years (in their early 40's) getting retirement pay of six figures which was well above what they ever made as a cop.

The new mayor is trying to fix it and there have been some changes put in place to stop the spiking and such, but the sad part is the city budget as a whole suffers primarily due to these two specific unions. The teachers union didn't get any of those benefits, but they're still city employees. If Omaha were to hypothetically go Bankrupt because of the abuse with the police/fire contracts all city workers and pensions would suffer even though they had nothing to do with the situation.

So, I agree with you that it's not as cut and dry as it seems. I genuinely feel for the people who are drawing a pension in Detroit right now.

Same here... first, I am under PERA, which also takes care of police, fire, and teachers. And yes, police and fire are political allies. The "City" is under stress and trouble and has short falls from the downturn. Utilities is a not for profit that funds itself.

Yes, ours is the same... the "old timers" had it much better. The last 3 years were what they were based on. They all got a lot of overtime to get it up. They had an automatic COLA adjustment of 3%... so their retirement went up 2.5% each year they worked... it actually paid more to retire... then of course they would come back as temps and double dip. At that point they were working for the "city" but not contributing to PERA because they were temps.

That is all gone. COLA is less, retirement age up, HAS is now highest 5 years, and contributions are up. They used to go by "rule of 80"... your age and years worked had to add up to 80. So you could retire at 50 if you had 30 years of service. That was pretty rare... but now it is rule of 90 and I think 55. (I'm still under 80) I have a bit to go so I do not keep up on all the details. When all the ones getting close to retirement start talking about it I have to go.

So yes... nobody should be getting something for nothing. And all that money comes from rate payers so it isn't like they should be footing the bill for my great retirement. But total compensation is what it is. My particular job is always 1 or 2 of the two most highest paying blue collar jobs. So if you want to attract good workers, you have to pay for them. Xcel Energy is right down the road, and it is not hard to see what my counterparts are getting for compensation. It is competitive all totaled.

Now the real wrench in all of this for me personally... my industry is mostly union. I do not know if that fact is why my industry is so well paid. Obviously I am biased and think I am worth it.... but who know... my wages could be artificially inflated due to union workers. I do not like to think on that one very long...

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