Men and Women and Sports Equality (Page 2)
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2007-04-02 9:32 PM in reply to: #745434 |
Master 1704 Long Island, NY | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality This discussion is why I will never respect/nor watch women's college/pro basketball. It would seem that the statistics from this sport can very easily be compared, women to men. Other than separate competition..everything else is the same...but it's not. The women's ball is smaller & lighter (I'm assuming to account for smaller hands)..yet the rim is not correspondingly reduced in size. It would be like a female golfer getting to putt with a smaller ball into the same size hole. Why wouldn't the ball be the same size? Or a comparable reduction be made to the rim? |
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2007-04-02 10:20 PM in reply to: #746547 |
Expert 1022 In limbo | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality 1st Timer in NY - 2007-04-02 8:32 PM This discussion is why I will never respect/nor watch women's college/pro basketball. It would seem that the statistics from this sport can very easily be compared, women to men. Other than separate competition..everything else is the same...but it's not. The women's ball is smaller & lighter (I'm assuming to account for smaller hands)..yet the rim is not correspondingly reduced in size. It would be like a female golfer getting to putt with a smaller ball into the same size hole. Why wouldn't the ball be the same size? Or a comparable reduction be made to the rim? Really? It's a smaller ball? Never heard of that before....seems strange because from youth basketball up through high school its all the same ball...why would they switch to a lighter ball for college and pros? I always thought a basketball was a basketball no matter what, except for the itty-bity kids' ones. Not that i'm a big basketball fan or anything, but wow, i'm in shock! lol |
2007-04-03 1:17 AM in reply to: #746547 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality 1st Timer in NY - 2007-04-02 8:32 PM This discussion is why I will never respect/nor watch women's college/pro basketball. It would seem that the statistics from this sport can very easily be compared, women to men. Other than separate competition..everything else is the same...but it's not. The women's ball is smaller & lighter (I'm assuming to account for smaller hands)..yet the rim is not correspondingly reduced in size. It would be like a female golfer getting to putt with a smaller ball into the same size hole. Why wouldn't the ball be the same size? Or a comparable reduction be made to the rim? Yeah, but what's the difference really? Ball & basket size are arbitrary, it is what it is. Women's sports like basket ball, soccer, lacrosse are much more finesse, less force. It's a different game inherently, why would you have less respect? |
2007-04-03 6:30 AM in reply to: #746678 |
Master 1704 Long Island, NY | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality AdventureBear - 2007-04-03 2:17 AM 1st Timer in NY - 2007-04-02 8:32 PM This discussion is why I will never respect/nor watch women's college/pro basketball. It would seem that the statistics from this sport can very easily be compared, women to men. Other than separate competition..everything else is the same...but it's not. The women's ball is smaller & lighter (I'm assuming to account for smaller hands)..yet the rim is not correspondingly reduced in size. It would be like a female golfer getting to putt with a smaller ball into the same size hole. Why wouldn't the ball be the same size? Or a comparable reduction be made to the rim? Yeah, but what's the difference really? Ball & basket size are arbitrary, it is what it is. Women's sports like basket ball, soccer, lacrosse are much more finesse, less force. It's a different game inherently, why would you have less respect?Because it's not a different game, the goal of the game is to outscore your opponent by scoring baskets, whether it be men or women. Would it be any different if the soccer or lacrosse goal were bigger for women? Naturally, it is just plain easier to score baskets with a women's basketball than it is with a men's ball. I just don't see the need for a different sized ball. |
2007-04-03 7:18 AM in reply to: #745434 |
Extreme Veteran 514 Perkasie, PA | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality SO WHAT WE CAN AGREE ON is that men and women are different -- and those differences translate into differences in athletic abilities; with the exception of sports that don't require as much use of the things that we differ in (i.e. archery, horsemanship). And even awesome athletes like Nicole Cooke would get beat in an even matchup with Jan Ulhrich (okay, maybe not during his beer-drinking, pretzel eating, off-season :-). The other part of this that interests me is that in a world, and particularly a country, where women are more and more often the head bread-winners in households, why aren't there equal opportunities for a woman to make a living as a professional athlete? There was just a report that came out this week that women's pay-rate has even dropped a little bit since 1990 -- WE CURRENTLY GET PAID $.72 FOR EVER $1.0 MEN GET PAID -- FOR THE EXACT SAME JOB. One thing changes (us being the heads of households) while another does not (equal income). I wonder if the professional athlete thing is just another symptom of the problem... |
2007-04-03 8:15 AM in reply to: #746732 |
Champion 8903 | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality cmbcwb3 - 2007-04-03 8:18 AM There was just a report that came out this week that women's pay-rate has even dropped a little bit since 1990 -- WE CURRENTLY GET PAID $.72 FOR EVER $1.0 MEN GET PAID -- FOR THE EXACT SAME JOB. I'm sure there are still a lot of inequalities in the job world. I am happy to report 2 things however: 1. We have a woman welder working at our (non union) shop and she is paid the same rate as the male welders with equal qualifications. 2. My youngest son works for a bank and is paid the same rate as the women who are doing the same work as he is. I can't speak for all of industry, but at least in these two examples there seems to be some fairness at least!
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2007-04-03 8:16 AM in reply to: #746732 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality cmbcwb3 - 2007-04-03 8:18 AM SO WHAT WE CAN AGREE ON is that men and women are different -- and those differences translate into differences in athletic abilities; with the exception of sports that don't require as much use of the things that we differ in (i.e. archery, horsemanship). And even awesome athletes like Nicole Cooke would get beat in an even matchup with Jan Ulhrich (okay, maybe not during his beer-drinking, pretzel eating, off-season :-). The other part of this that interests me is that in a world, and particularly a country, where women are more and more often the head bread-winners in households, why aren't there equal opportunities for a woman to make a living as a professional athlete? There was just a report that came out this week that women's pay-rate has even dropped a little bit since 1990 -- WE CURRENTLY GET PAID $.72 FOR EVER $1.0 MEN GET PAID -- FOR THE EXACT SAME JOB. One thing changes (us being the heads of households) while another does not (equal income). I wonder if the professional athlete thing is just another symptom of the problem... Ok...I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes. Two things. first in regards to the WE CURRENTLY GET PAID $.72 FOR EVER $1.0 MEN GET PAID -- FOR THE EXACT SAME JOB. .I think that is a bunch of bunk. Did it happen 20 yrs ago? Yes. Is it happening now? NO. There have been studies done that women generally are less likely to negotiate salary and ask for raises than their male counterparts. So if you and I go and get the same job and I decide to negotiate for $5K more than you accepted, I am doing the same job as you are, but we are getting paid differently. It's not because you are a woman, it's because you chose to not be aggressive and ask for more. I saw this first hand when my wife accepted a job recently. There are so many rules and regulations that prevent an employer from paying a man and woman differently for the same job that I don't think it happens in todays world. In regards to the professional athlete world, it's about revenue. Unfortunately, men bring in more advertising dollars and therefore get a larger percentage of that revenue. I think that's why you can't compare an NBA salary to a WNBA salary. It's pure finances. I think womens sports get the short end of the stick, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles. |
2007-04-03 8:17 AM in reply to: #745434 |
Member 176 | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality All great points and I think most of what I need to say about equality in sport has been said, and it is sad that there isn't the same opportunities in this day and age for women. I work in a Muslim country where men strive to be able to support their wife so she doesn't have to work...women who go to school and get degrees here don't work because when their finished school they aspire to get married and have children. I don't agree with it here, but that seems to be what both groups want. My 2cents on women making a living in professional sports...Professional sports are big market and are driven by by finances. If women were happier sitting on the couch drinking beer and watching professional sports there would be more of a market for women's professional sports. as it stands now most of the money being spent on professional sports is spent by men who watch men. Just my opinion. |
2007-04-03 8:19 AM in reply to: #746713 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality 1st Timer in NY - 2007-04-03 5:30 AM Because it's not a different game, the goal of the game is to outscore your opponent by scoring baskets, whether it be men or women. Would it be any different if the soccer or lacrosse goal were bigger for women? Naturally, it is just plain easier to score baskets with a women's basketball than it is with a men's ball. I just don't see the need for a different sized ball. Because the way the ball is handled is entirely part of the game. Changing ball size, bigger/smaller male or female changes the things you can do with the ball. If women played with a men's ball, the womens game would be a different game still. What if the men played with a women's sized ball? Any one could palm the thing with even greater ease. I dont' see why this is a matter of respecting the game at all. Besides I hate basket ball and refuse to watch women's OR men's ball, I'm just posting for the sake of argument. |
2007-04-03 11:00 AM in reply to: #746793 |
Extreme Veteran 514 Perkasie, PA | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality Marvarnett -- I agree with some of your logic as to WHY women are paid less. And researchers have added that some women are less willing to travel, relocate, work super-long hours, etc., as their male counterparts. If that's the case, then the person willing to do more deserves more. But I don't think we can quite say that inequalities don't happen anymore. By the way -- I love reading what everyone has written. All good stuff! Edited by cmbcwb3 2007-04-03 11:04 AM |
2007-04-03 12:06 PM in reply to: #746606 |
Champion 5575 Butler | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality lil_turtle - 2007-04-02 10:20 PM I could be wrong but when I was in High School Girls used a different ball than the guys and that was back in the early 90's which is about the time the ball switch (I believe). I do not really watch women's basketball, I just like the guys game better, I like to see some guy dunk from the free throw line over someone as opposed to somebody who can barely dunk. 1st Timer in NY - 2007-04-02 8:32 PM This discussion is why I will never respect/nor watch women's college/pro basketball. It would seem that the statistics from this sport can very easily be compared, women to men. Other than separate competition..everything else is the same...but it's not. The women's ball is smaller & lighter (I'm assuming to account for smaller hands)..yet the rim is not correspondingly reduced in size. It would be like a female golfer getting to putt with a smaller ball into the same size hole. Why wouldn't the ball be the same size? Or a comparable reduction be made to the rim? Really? It's a smaller ball? Never heard of that before....seems strange because from youth basketball up through high school its all the same ball...why would they switch to a lighter ball for college and pros? I always thought a basketball was a basketball no matter what, except for the itty-bity kids' ones. Not that i'm a big basketball fan or anything, but wow, i'm in shock! lol |
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2007-04-03 1:39 PM in reply to: #745532 |
Veteran 332 Calgary | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality auto208562 - 2007-04-02 10:25 AM Dang, I can't remember but there's a Oly triathlon which tries to equilize the men and women but forgot what it was called.... That would be the Muskoka Chase. |
2007-04-03 1:42 PM in reply to: #745543 |
Veteran 332 Calgary | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality Elly - 2007-04-02 10:29 AM I've spent a lot of time riding and competing horses, specifically in three day eventing (google it) This is one of the only sports where men and women compete on equal grounds, at all levels, Olympics included. I think that has a lot to do with the fact that the -horse- is doing most of the physical work, so the physical abilities/limitation of the rider are not as much of a concern. I don't think there are men's and women's categories in dog agility competitions either. |
2007-04-03 1:57 PM in reply to: #747178 |
Expert 1022 In limbo | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality kproudfoot - 2007-04-03 11:06 AM lil_turtle - 2007-04-02 10:20 PM I could be wrong but when I was in High School Girls used a different ball than the guys and that was back in the early 90's which is about the time the ball switch (I believe). I do not really watch women's basketball, I just like the guys game better, I like to see some guy dunk from the free throw line over someone as opposed to somebody who can barely dunk. 1st Timer in NY - 2007-04-02 8:32 PM This discussion is why I will never respect/nor watch women's college/pro basketball. It would seem that the statistics from this sport can very easily be compared, women to men. Other than separate competition..everything else is the same...but it's not. The women's ball is smaller & lighter (I'm assuming to account for smaller hands)..yet the rim is not correspondingly reduced in size. It would be like a female golfer getting to putt with a smaller ball into the same size hole. Why wouldn't the ball be the same size? Or a comparable reduction be made to the rim? Really? It's a smaller ball? Never heard of that before....seems strange because from youth basketball up through high school its all the same ball...why would they switch to a lighter ball for college and pros? I always thought a basketball was a basketball no matter what, except for the itty-bity kids' ones. Not that i'm a big basketball fan or anything, but wow, i'm in shock! lolWell my high school team used the same balls as the guys did, but I went to Podunk High School so maybe we just didn't know we were supposed to do it differently! lol It was a very small town in Montana, and Montanans do everything their own way...lol It may have changed since then...i haven't paid a whole lot of attention. That was in the late 90's. |
2007-04-03 2:53 PM in reply to: #746732 |
Crystal Lake, IL | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality cmbcwb3 - 2007-04-03 7:18 AM -- WE CURRENTLY GET PAID $.72 FOR EVER $1.0 MEN GET PAID -- FOR THE EXACT SAME JOB. Um, my computer person was a guy, had a full sex change (transgender) and is now a woman. I asked, but I still have to pay the same rates.
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2007-04-03 3:47 PM in reply to: #746793 |
Master 2629 brummie land | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality Marvarnett - 2007-04-03 2:16 PM cmbcwb3 - 2007-04-03 8:18 AM SO WHAT WE CAN AGREE ON is that men and women are different -- and those differences translate into differences in athletic abilities; with the exception of sports that don't require as much use of the things that we differ in (i.e. archery, horsemanship). And even awesome athletes like Nicole Cooke would get beat in an even matchup with Jan Ulhrich (okay, maybe not during his beer-drinking, pretzel eating, off-season :-). The other part of this that interests me is that in a world, and particularly a country, where women are more and more often the head bread-winners in households, why aren't there equal opportunities for a woman to make a living as a professional athlete? There was just a report that came out this week that women's pay-rate has even dropped a little bit since 1990 -- WE CURRENTLY GET PAID $.72 FOR EVER $1.0 MEN GET PAID -- FOR THE EXACT SAME JOB. One thing changes (us being the heads of households) while another does not (equal income). I wonder if the professional athlete thing is just another symptom of the problem... Ok...I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes. Two things. first in regards to the WE CURRENTLY GET PAID $.72 FOR EVER $1.0 MEN GET PAID -- FOR THE EXACT SAME JOB. .I think that is a bunch of bunk. Did it happen 20 yrs ago? Yes. Is it happening now? NO. There have been studies done that women generally are less likely to negotiate salary and ask for raises than their male counterparts. So if you and I go and get the same job and I decide to negotiate for $5K more than you accepted, I am doing the same job as you are, but we are getting paid differently. It's not because you are a woman, it's because you chose to not be aggressive and ask for more. I saw this first hand when my wife accepted a job recently. There are so many rules and regulations that prevent an employer from paying a man and woman differently for the same job that I don't think it happens in todays world. it does happen! not just in the case you mentioned with regard to negotiation. it happens when it shouldn't. yes its illegal but it happens and its s***!
http://www.eoc.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=15613#1410 Edited by sappho96 2007-04-03 3:50 PM |
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2007-04-03 10:43 PM in reply to: #745434 |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality Well there are alot of difference in pay. I was getting paid 15k less than another man for doing the same job. Even men get paid differently from other men. Well my sister and I used to play one on one. when she would get the ball and she was on offense she would use her ball and I would use mine when I was on offense. This was the early 90s to give you an idea. the equalizer is trying to level the playing field but it really doesn't because finishing times can change so much and who knows if they got it right. Las Vagas marathon had that and it was an easy bet to bet on the men I think they passed the girls around mile 8. They onyl gave the girls like 8 mins head start or something. If female basketball catches on then they would get the men's money but its all about what the fans are willing to pay. Professional sports pay are driven the fans. Even professional triathletes are basicly support by us age/groupers. I was told in high school a guy could join a girls team if they did not have a male version of the sport but still is that right? what would prevent that team to be all men? |
2007-04-03 11:29 PM in reply to: #746793 |
Elite 3972 Reno | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality Marvarnett - 2007-04-03 8:16 AM There have been studies done that women generally are less likely to negotiate salary and ask for raises than their male counterparts. So if you and I go and get the same job and I decide to negotiate for $5K more than you accepted, I am doing the same job as you are, but we are getting paid differently. Actually, I believe that it still happens. and that women have to be better negotiators than men. If you don't ask, you have no one to blame but yourself. I was rather abrupt with my boss today that I expect a large raise by June or "I might realized that my family cannot afford for me to continue to put myself at the bottom of the pay scale". go mary, go mary...... Edited by bootygirl 2007-04-03 11:32 PM |
2007-04-03 11:40 PM in reply to: #745434 |
Expert 1022 In limbo | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality I thought of this thread tonight....at my coed softball game I had a huge hit that hit the fence on the first bounce. Everyone there said it was the biggest hit they had ever seen from a girl and I am damn proud of myself for it even though 3 guys hit it actually over the fence in the same game! Just thought I'd throw that in. |
2007-04-04 7:03 AM in reply to: #747656 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality Sappho, I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all. I'm saying that it isn't rampant enough to have a current gender gap. Plus the link you gave doesn't say it compared exact same jobs, just peoples pay checks. And that included overtime. Other studies have shown that men are more likely to volenteer for overtime so using that knowleged, they will get paid more. I honestly believe than anyone in generation (early 30's) with the same education and experience as I will get offered the same base salary. If you negotiate higher, work more overtime, etc that doesn't mean you get paid more, that means you worked harder and got rewarded for that. I think that everyone, regardless of gender, race, ANYTHING is capable of doing the same job. It's if they are willing and how hard they work that determines their pay. Plus as Mary said, you can change jobs if they aren't willing to pay you enough. And BTW...GO MARY GO MARY!!! |
2007-04-04 9:08 AM in reply to: #748201 |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality Its ironic most women I know make more money then there husbands. |
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2007-04-04 9:40 AM in reply to: #745434 |
Extreme Veteran 413 | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality I work in London's financial district and the inequalities you mention are very prevelant here. The lady who does the job I was promoted from gets USD$8,000 less than I did for doing it. When she confronted the relevant director he said it was because I had been more qualified and experienced - yet she still does exactly the same role! Interestingly - and I don't know if this is a cultural difference between the US and the UK but I don't know any household where the female is the 'head of the household' - even the few I know where the woman earns more. |
2007-04-04 10:26 AM in reply to: #745434 |
Expert 1092 Earth | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality One of the factors NOT listed is what about time on the job. When you have 2 people with equal time (experince) on the job, you will find the pay is going to be approximately equal. However, how many women take time off from work to stay home to raise children? How many men do the same? Is it right to effectively penalize a man for not taking time off to raise kids? I am not saying women should either take time off, or NOT take time off, but mearly asking the question of how do you remove that from the equation? How do you calculate risk into the pay factors? Yes there are female firefighters, and police officers, but they are a low minority in those fields. Just as male kindergarden teachers and male grade school teachers are a minority in their fields. Should we pay a firefighter less because it requires less education than a teacher? But they risk their lives going into a burning building, not that a teacher doesn't risk her life walking into a grade school in certain areas of DC, or Chicago or New York. Most women choose safe careers, as do most men. But women generally work less hours, and are much less willing to "give" up family time for work. At my company there are 2 women managers, both have families as do I. I work most days from 8:15 until 6:30, with an hour for lunch. The one manager claims she works 7:00 AM until 5:00 every day (I don't know that she is working all those hours, but I don't think she is here everyday at 7:00 more likely 1-2 times a week), the other comes in at 8:15-8:30 and is out the door at 5:00-5:30 every day. From what I can tell neither are puting in the same hours I am. Should they be paid equally for the hours they work verses the hours I work? As for equally in sports, I don't see that happening. Women with the exception of tennis, and possibly golf just are not the draw to the fields that men are. Even there the men still make lots more money. |
2007-04-04 10:44 AM in reply to: #745434 |
Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality Well I wish I had a wife that made more money than me... Hell who am i kidding I just wish I had a steady girlfriend. lol back to the very first post about the kids themselfs.. do they (the boys) really care that they got beat by a girl?? or is there some parent, family member telling them not to lose to a girl.. I can remember when my daughter was little always telling he that she could beat the boys in anything, school, sports etc. and from time to time she will beat me in a tough one on one game. Years ago when I was in high school, myself and another friend on the basketball team loved playing volleyball, in fact we played that more in the summers than basketball but we attended a small school and there was no boys team. They girls V-ball coach would let us practice with them so the players would get used to playing against taller and harder hitters. It would have been unfair to allow us to play in games, my friend was 6'6" and I'm 6'2" we could both easily dunk a basketball, so playing on a womens yet was an unfair advantage for us.. Now the summer leauges that I play v-ball in, the two girls on my team are way better than I and carry our team, they both played in college and are 10+ years younger than me also.. but that doesn 't matter.. oh yea they both earn double my salary |
2007-04-04 12:54 PM in reply to: #748551 |
Extreme Veteran 413 | Subject: RE: Men and Women and Sports Equality At my company there are 2 women managers, both have families as do I. I work most days from 8:15 until 6:30, with an hour for lunch. The one manager claims she works 7:00 AM until 5:00 every day (I don't know that she is working all those hours, but I don't think she is here everyday at 7:00 more likely 1-2 times a week), the other comes in at 8:15-8:30 and is out the door at 5:00-5:30 every day. From what I can tell neither are puting in the same hours I am. Should they be paid equally for the hours they work verses the hours I work? Most companies worth their salt pay people for what they contribute to the company - not how many hours they put in. You might not know this - but it is seen over here in London as very "American" to judge someone by the hours they work. As a result, at some of the Yank Banks, people sit at their desk doing no work at all (personal stuff and surfing) just so they can be seen to be there. Personally I do 9-5 - I'm middle management but more importantly I'm a husband and dad. When I'm appraised I make sure I can point to tangible things I've contributed to achieving the company's objectives - it don't matter how long I sat in my chair. Some might argue that the women do shorter hours because they're more effecient than you are (not meant to be provocative) |
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