MightyMojoMentorGroup -- (Full House!) (Page 201)

Yeah the fee part for very long is tough to call at the moment. Things are improving here, my bankruptcy is working it's way along, the trustee payments have begun and are very manageable-a huge relief, my wife has begun sending me money so I can keep me, and her insured, and I have found a tenant for the back bedroom-formerly master "suite" at $400/mo. So depending on how all that finally shakes out will determine how I shape my race calender, not to mention the rest of my life. My little savings cushion has a positive balance again too!

Jeff,

Cute and Qualified is good. Glad to see things are falling into place for you too.

My 10/7 long run: http://app.strava.com/runs/24318655

My 10/10 Med length run: http://app.strava.com/runs/24591983

My 10/14 Long run: http://app.strava.com/runs/25043875

I am fading badly at the end of my long runs, some stiffness/cramping sensations in my hamstrings. Granted the misery gets pushed a little further into the run each week, so far, but still discouraging. For the 10/7 run I just set out to run slow but ended up a tad faster than I had planned. However it was a good steady run to the 12 mile point. For that fast mid week run I tried to target a sub 4 hr marathon pace on a middle distance run and felt great-had fun, but took almost the full three days to recover. For yesterday's run I tried for even splits and steady running. I had stashed water and cliff bars on the course in 3 places and we grabbed those which shows after miles 4, 7, and 12. My observations:

1-this is a fairly tough route that ends with some long uphill sections.

2-kind of hot this week-78f,

3-ran a little too hard Wed?

4-training for Redman and its related problems has left me with a mileage deficit for pure running.

The coming weekend I have planned an 18 mile long/9 medium run on Wed.  then a back off week. For November I planned-16, 18, 20, 20 (long runs) with supporting mid week runs, then down to 15 or so prior to tapering for the Dallas marathon. My thought is to start very slow and see if I can finish strong the last 3 miles or so.

Weekly mileage should hit about 55mpw. I have identified 3 more local 5k's to serve as speed workouts and because I enjoy them, all low pressure. I have nothing resembling an injury at the moment and a bright spot from last week is I seemed to have my nutrition  and hydration right other than hamstring tightness.

I've dropped Monday runs-seeing no point in forcing a 2-3 mile shuffle after a long Sunday run.

I am toying with a goal pace in the mid 4's but at the end of my run Sunday I was feeling depressed looking at a possible 5 hour marathon again. Thoughts?

Other sports-1 or 2x week on the bike, nothing very long but we tend to get a little "playful" psychologically it has been restorative.

Swim 1 or 2x as I feel like it-focusing on balance drills and easy laps-not wanting to do too much till I meet my coach and get a sense of direction.

Feedback is always appreciated

Jeff I wish I could give you any feedback. Sadly I am very much a newcomer and have never ran more than a half marathon. Of course I see your workouts in Strava and you are definitely putting in some serious mileage! 

On the main boards there was a discussion last week about how long your longest run should be, I think there are different camps, some say 16 some say 23. As with most things, there are probably examples of both working out well (and examples of both failing). I always feel that long runs in preparation for long road races are huge confidence builders. Going hard on your runs is really fun too, but recovering for three days kind of takes some of the air out of your balloon in a building phase I think (but again, newb here). 

For me, I visited my girlfriend in Switzerland over the weekend, got some "hill" running in. Wasn't that much incline but still more than here in flat Holland I am starting to enjoy swimming a bit more also. Managed to swim 2050 meters today during my practice (with rests in between of course). The number of rests are coming down as are the lenghts of the rests. I had a couple of 100m repeats where I really felt a bit like I knew what I was doing, although I wasn't any faster than the other intervals But still, I know I'll get better as I make this a consistent thing again.

JEFF -

Okay....yeah........I was initially correct in thinking your were doing the full marathon.  Something you wrote somewhere a few weeks ago led me to wonder if you were doing the half, but as you mention a possibilty of five hours, I know you're gearing for the 26.2!

Based on those three runs, i don't see any need for you to be depressed about the possibility of a 5-hour marathon.  The pace you set on the last run, the 16.6 one, would land you with a 4:14 finish time, and even though the race will be about 10 miles longer than that run, I can't see you slipping to a 11;27 pace, which would be the one for five hours.  And can i see you "slipping" to 10:17, which would end you at 4:30?  Well, you still have about 6 or 7 weeks until race day, so that's lot so time to refine your training.  So, don't sink into the Slough of Despond just yet!

Beware the hamstrings, though!  A hammy issue in Nov '02, about 10 days out from my goal marathon, caused me to be a DNS -- the only good being that (a) it spared me the cost of the the trip, and (b) when I managed to train safely the following year, i did the race AND got my Boston-qualifying time.  But, sheesh -- that was a loooooong time in which to delay any gratification!

For me, hamstring problems come from some semblance of speedwork, which is one reason (Achilles being the other) why i don't do conventional track-style speedwork.  Every so often my hamstring will bug me, even in the absence of speedwork, but that makes sense to me now in light of my hip MRI results, which found evidence of chronic tearing of the problematic (left-same side as torn labrum) hamstring.  But -- KNOCK ON WOOD!!! -- the hamstring hasn't kept me from anything for several years now, and the only time it really messed things up was the one cited above.

I think your plan to limit (mostly?) speed stuff to a few low-key 5k races is a good one.  That'd be a great time to work on increasing your cadence at an attempt at increased speed, and in general, increased cadence shortens one's stride, thus reducing the potential for aggravating the hamstring.  Win-win, maybe?

Your attempt at even pacing on the 16.6-mile run was successful -- not only good in its own right, but significantly better than either of the two preceding runs.  It's also good that you seem to be getting a grip on nutrition.  What's the aid staion situation for DM?

EXCELLENT Idea to drop the Monday run!  The way you describe it, it's just quintessentail "junk miles' , which is absolutely the last thing you need in serious marathon training.  You will be best-served by focusing on trhe long and medium runs, and dumping anything less than 5 miles.  (I think.)

You mention toying around a mid-4 pace, and I mentioned above that 10:17/mile would get you to 4:30, and that might be a good going-out strategy.  In fact, find the 4:30 pace bunny and spend the first mile there and see how you feel, and then adjust accordingly.  (True confession -- I have never stuck with, at any point, any pace bunny.  Were it me, with the thought of mid-4 finish, i would start between the 4:15 and 4:30 bunnies and kind of start my own race with them as bookends.)

No doubt, training for Redman affected your "pure" running; it's hard to allow even a half-iron -- LET ALONE A FULL IRON!!!! -- not to.  That just becomes one of thsoe knotty problems where you have to make a choice and then try not to second-guess to kingdom-come.  (Says he who has done similar things............and second-guessed them to kingdom come!) 

Good plan on the swims emphasis, right down to taking it easy until you meet your coach.  I'd add that you should not do any leg stuff at all, unless you have really sore legs at some point and feel that a few lengths of very gentle flutter-kicking might feel awfully nice. 

As for the bike, well, no grinding hill sessions, okay?  Small ring is a good place to hang out for most of your rides, and keep them in the spirit of nice littel recovery rides. 

Gonna post this before i lose it!

I went with a friend for an OWS this morning. We swam 2.4 miles in 1:41. I was pretty happy with that. I'm sure I'll add some time in the general chaos of a mass start but I should get in under 2:20 with no problem

Yesterdays 100 mile ride was fine but boring. My friend Mike, that I swam with this morning, is going on next weeks ride with me so that'll make the time go faster. Two more weeks of high volume and then some nice tapering rest!

Johanne

JEFF again -

Belatedly, that is good news that matters seem to be stabilizing-via-shifting on the homefront.  Some kind-of radical stuff is happening, but I guess that's all mostly necessary.  And as for '13 races, well, you know by now that races will ALWAYS be around, so if next season is a bit dicey money-wise, then hopefully '14 will be better and you'll be able to race to your heart's content!

THOMAS -

You didn't ask, but seeing as how you mentioned here, i will chirp in on marathon mileage!

IMHO, marathon training that tops out at 16 is for (a) a real veteran marathoner who has done big miles countless times,  or (b) somehow who's between two marathons fairly close together, or (c) someone who is hellbound and determined to complete a marathon, but is either flirting with injury or some serious commitments that truly keep them from long runs.

For people with not a whole lot of marathoning behind them, I generally feel that 18 miles is a minimum longest run, with 20 miles being even better.  And then it can progress from there, right up to 26* miles......and maybe that just once for an absolute first-timer.  I see no real need for anything longer than 26, unless the runner doing so is bionic and can run endelssly with impunity.

As for the * above, that's just to say that the last 0.2 mile could be left as the "surprise" factor, the wee tidbit that makes the race an over-the-top effort --- or something like that.  And as for bigger "surprise" factors, I really think most marathoners, beginner or otherwise, can top-outtheir long runs at 22/23/24, with no real advantage to 23 or 24 over the 22.  Adrenaline and aid stations will usually get people obver the hump of those "mmissing" miles in training, so adding them into thsoe final week sof training can often lead to injury rather than improved fitness.  Again, though --- IMHO.

Nice results with your swimming; I'm very pleased for you that it sems to be working well!   It can be a tough beats to tame, but if you are getting godd rest breaks and mixing it up with different stuff, then that will go a long ways toward preventing from being pure purgatory.  May it continue to be a pleasnatly challenging enterprise for you!

JOHANNE -

Au contraire on adding time in the chaos of a mass start!  My mega mass start was at IMLP, where the churning of the hordes was palpable ---- and yet when i exited the water after the first loop, I was amazed at how afst (by my humble standards) I had done it.  On the second loop I was on my own about 98% of the time, with a couple of half-hearted efforts of drafting, and even though i diodn't feel too tired, my time for that loop was many minutes slower than it was for the first loop.

Conclusion -- That the effect of a massive draft cannot be denied, and is well worth aiming for; that is, don't shy away from the biggest mass of starters.  Way too out front wil just have people bopping their way past you, and way in the back -- pointedly after most everyone else has headed off -- will leave you mostly on your own for the whole thing.  The only advantage I can see for the latter case is if someone has zero swim golas and/or is very nervous in the water and is worried on one or several fronts.

So!  if you are doing 1:41 fro 2.4 miles with just one other person with you, I really expect your time to be faster at the actual race (measurement-dependent, that is!).

Nice ride, again.........but "boring" might be telling your something.  (Such as --- make next week's 100-miler the last.)   At this stage of IM training, bad vibes can seep in, and then you run the risk of heading into the race with thsoe thoughts in mind.  You've done some huge bike miles, and now might be the time to back off to nothing longer than 80 miles, just in an effort to keep your body AND mind feeling fresh.  Just a thought!

Dave is NOT doing IMAZ, right?

Glad to have you back here, m'am!

DAVE -

Hi!  Welcome back!

I agree with HH (afterall, I taught him everything he knows!) as they apply to 10km, where there may be more speedwork involved and more lactic built up.  But for marathon training, i would just always opt for a rest day as opposed to dragging the legs out there for a run that didn't have a whole lot of purpose to it.  I think that "flushing" the legs is valuable.....but i'm never convinced as to the most reliable way to do it.   That is, I was never sure that that following one lacic-producing run with another run got the job done. 

As for getting the body used to running often, that certainly has its merits.....but a nod always should eb extended to adequate rest/recovery.  It is a fine line to walk (as it were....), to be sure, and for me it just came down to too many big miles leading to too many days lost to injury or incipient injury.  It took me a long time, and a lotta days/weeks lost to injuries over several/many years before i began to listen carefuly to my body; I was not exactly a "quick study" in this regard!

I checked out your "Dirty Dozen" video.  It was pretty interesting and it satisfied my curiosity.  I feel no need to travel to Pittsburgh to ride the Dirty Dozen.  The 37% hill did not look like "Fun".  I think I'd be riding with the fellow that said he was riding up at a walking pace.  We have some pretty respectable hills here too but the dirty dozen looked worse.

I know Danny Chew! Small world. Ive met him at Hell Week Texas and a few other places

JOHANNE again -

The third type of person who might wait until most everyone else has started the swim is one who just really wants to do it mostly on their own.  They just want to get into their own space and their own rhythm, and let it all unfold with as little outside input as possible.  I can understand this perspective with ease, as it's generally where I most prefer to be on any given race swim.

DAVE again -

Thanks to George's response to you, I realized that i had missed one of your post.  Better late than never?

I did my first-ever visit to a gym in early '05, fell in love, and continued up until last off-season, which i took off for Yoga instead.  I missed it enough that i will rejoin soon, but here's what i can pretty much promise you: that i will overdo it on my first visit (and maybe the second).  At this point I know (in theory) what not to do if I wish to not be sore for days afterwards.........but the reality is I will push things just a bit too hard.  (What's worse -- being flat-out ignorant, or stupid enough to do what you know is not good??)

Anyhow, looking forward to returning to that environment.  i just really like the discipline of it, and getting into my own little space of focused functional strength gains. 

Nicely done on that 8-miler with 1100 vertical.  Yikes!

Vastly larger YIKES!! for the Dirty Dozen, and even though I am pretty good on hills, I'm not sure I would tackle that little challenge.  I can't imagine truing to climb on a bike that world's steepest street.  Not for the faint of heart, to be sure.

i hadn't realized you'd been off the bike for so long.  Any plans to get a new bike soon?

Kniock 'em dead at paddle tennis!

DAVE once more -

Very cool video......but not quite compelling enough to make me want to trek down to Pittsburgh to do the Dirty Dozen (or even just Canton Avenue!).

Makes me wonder if the mad scientrist who created Savageman perhaps grew up in Pittsburgh!

Do you know of a guy, name of Ben Foy, from Murrysville?  I met him at Giant Acorn, and he travels regularly to VA and MD to do the Set-Up Events races.  I asked if he was part of the Pitt. Tri Club, and he said he wasn't, and then mentioned an oddly-named club that I can't remember.  Nice guy, bike geek, owns a CERVELO 5.  (But i outbiked him!)

Having finished my last tri for the season I thought it would be fun to go back and look at what I said in my bio from last January when this group formed.

I can see by looking at it that I fell short on most of my goals but still feel like it has been a successful season. I didn't lost the extra 20 pounds, but lost about 6. I never reached 6:30 mile splits from 7:13, but did reach 7:01 at about the same weight. (I had thought I might get to 6:30 from weight loss alone.) I didn't reach 20 mph on the bike from 16 mph, but did reach 18+ mph. I didn't do 4 triathlons, but did 3 and will get my first USAT ranking. I don't think I will take the 45-49 age group by storm next year, but I am now the guy who finishes near the top, but just out of the medals. I did more road races than I planned. I did all that and never had any serious injuries. I am still married and the kids know what I look like. I still have a little money in the bank.

It's my "easy 5" day and I just passed my 2011 run mileage which was 1091, am now at 1093, but fewer hours-I assume that means I am faster.

I know I for sure don't want to start too far back and take 5 minutes just to get to the start line! There is a wall on the right side of the swim and a lot of people hang out there and clog up the area. I think I have a plan so we'll see how it goes. I was thinking the swim might be a little slower because it'll be harder to get into and keep a rhythm with all the people.

I think my ride was boring because it was my second solo 100 miler. I ran out of things to think about Next week I'm going with a friend and that should be much more fun. I'll think about skipping the last long ride depending on how I feel after the weekend.

Long run tomorrow, 18 miles. I'm going to try to go early because we're having a little bit of a heat wave this week.

No, Dave is not racing IMAZ. He is my support crew. All 3 of my kids are flying in too....at their own expense. I think they're growing up  

Johanne

Not only faster running but faster swimming and biking (+15.5%).  I hope to improve that much on my bike by next summer.

Thanks for the math!

I noticed, in terms of hours, my cycling and running are almost dead even. I wonder if I didn't make an error in how I structured my training for the IM distance? Too late now, my spring and fall were and are run focused so perhaps that's just the way it is

I had a good run today.  I tried running some intervals for the first time and managed to experience a faster than normal run pace (10.5km/hr vs typical 8km/hr).  I felt like I could've gone faster than I did and at the end of each interval I felt like I could go on longer.  I liked the feeling of running faster so I think I'll be doing this atleast once a week. 

I was planning to do 4 intervals for the 1st time but I lost count and wound up doing 5 instead.

Tomorrow, I'm back to the pool.  Hopefully I'll have a better day than Monday.  It wasn't too bad I just felt like I hadn't been swimming for a long time.

I normally pick one day a week to be some sort of structured speed/interval day then rotate through a series of workouts, a different one each week, that I liked and can remember. Each has it's own purpose. If I am racing that upcoming weekend or had some particularly grueling session then I abbreviate it or skip it.

Basic intervals-warm up 1 mile -1:1-1 minute at race goal pace (<7 for 5k's, 8 for marathon etc) 1 minute jog repeat 5 times then jog 5 minutes then do it again. That will get me through a 5 mile run

1 mile repeats-after a warm up, set my count down feature on my watch for 8 minutes, run 1 mile fast,, rest until it beeps then run another mile-5 times or when I slow to the point there is no rest interval.

race pace run. I have some 3 mile segments laid out as part of a longer 5 mile runs, easy run to the start then a hard 3 mile run then easy finish, or try to neg split the 3, run fast, then a tad faster.

Tempo run-5-9 miles just slightly faster than is comfortable-maybe a notch above where conversation starts to be difficult.

Hills-either a series of rolling hills or 1 longish hill-up quickly but with good form, walk down, up again etc repeat.

That's 5 specific workouts, 4 really-since the hill workout isn't always available to me, that I rotate through without getting too sick of them. Sometimes i can go 8 weeks before repeating one if I have been racing allot too. any of them other than the hill work can be replicated on a track if you are so inclined.