Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed (Page 21)

Brought the puppy home this morning. My son is going to be so excited when he comes home from school. I'm very pleased with the pup so far. Not much whining at all, and he is making himself right at home!

Jeff I agree it is better to spin at a higher cadence but for me the lower the gear the higher the cadence I have and the higher the gear the lower the cadence I have. So if I am working in a higher gear and am trying to ride at a higher cadence I can't stay within the perscribed power range that the workout calls for. Does that make sense?

So I guess I am asking if you are riding in a higher gear wouldn't you expect your cadence to drop off some as it gets tougher to push those gears especially indoors on the trainer. Outdoors I guess it depends on the terrain like hammering a downhill in a big gear or spinning uphill in a lower gear.

Jeff, I'm always asking..sorry...but your posts always come timely!!! actually today in the gym I was riding the stationary bike doing 30 second intervals going from 100-110 rps dropping to 70-80 rps.  You are right the, the 70 - 80 seemed a lot harder to pedal. The reason I did this is because I ws using the Spinerval CD last night and the instructor wanted us to be pedaling fast.

You said it is faster to ride the bike in a lower gear (small gear) and keep the rpm's up and forgetting the run part. (Wish I could cut and past your exact comment but it is just above this one.)

So how should we be bike training on the road, keeping the rpm's way up or in the big gear, grinding it out.  I'll bet you say both but rarely do I go in the small ring except for just the first mile of so as a warm up.  I guess I'm wrong???

Also, I really stuggled with the 1 leg pedalling....

Congrats Dina,

Jeff, Tony and I have questions...the same ones...lol

This deserves a point of clarification.  Rather than saying 'higher' or 'lower' gear or even 'bigger' or 'smaller' gear I will use the terms 'easier' and 'harder' because that's intuitive while the others aren't.

The reason is that the gearing gets 'HARDER'  when you shift to a 'SMALLER' cog (number of teeth), but it's a 'HIGHER' gear (regarding gear ratio).

Because of all that confusion I like to use easier and harder.

If you are pedaling at 80rpm with a gear of 50x20 you might be putting out 180 watts (made that number up for the purposes of this example).  You can shift to 50x23 (which feels much easier) and pedal at 95rpm and be making 180 watts...but you might be able to do this with a lot less muscular fatigue and lower HR.

So how should you be training on the road?  High RPMs almost exclusively.  My reasoning is this: The fastest way to race (because it's the most efficient way) is with a higher rpm/easier gear.  Since that's the way you want to race, it's also the way you want to train because the law of specificity guarantees that the best way to train for high RPM racing is with high RPM training.

But it's never bad to mix it up especially if your racing will have you on terrain that requires low rpm power at times (like the climbs I have around here).  In your case, living around Tallahassee, you probably don't EVER need to worry about 60rpm torque.

You are welcome to do whatever the Spinerval CD instructs you to do, but I like to do intervals at basically a fixed cadence, I just go hard by adding gearing and then easy by removing gearing...but always keeping my cadence between 90-110.

Do 1 leg pedaling drills with a pretty light resistance!

Here are some ridiculously geeky pages for those inclined to delve into gearing, cadence, power, and speed:

The first two are specifically about the relationship between gearing/speed/cadence, the third is about watts and speed based on bike type, wind, terrain, etc.  Not for the feint of heart.

one two three

I know this was a few pages back but I thought I would drop a little comment too.

I have seen this same type of reaction in breathing patterns but I fail to put it into practice.  I have noticed that when I take the time to really focus on breathing I feel like I am running much smoother and faster with less effort.  However, it's just as you said Jeff, I feel like there is a slight deprivation of oxygen.  I can usually control things for several strides by taking a deep breath every once in while and then allowing a slow, more rhythmic breath.

On the bike I usually suffer enough that I don't attempt any breathing changes.  Swimming on the other hand has become a habit of a slow exhale under water with just enough extra in my lungs to exhale slightly harder as I turn my head to clear water from my mouth and then take a quick breath.

This sounds like a good test.  The only way it could have been better was if you actually puked when you got off.  I have decided that I am not doing any testing this year.  I would rather get some brutal WO's completed and save the ridiculously hard stuff for the race course and surprise myself then.

I have to admit that you and Dina are really arousing my curiosity in the Trainer Road data.  I would need to buy the Garmin cadence sensor to get on board though and I'm not sure I want to make that purchase.  I am getting very close to needing another pair of running shoes and they will likely be another pair of Newtons.  And, well, Newtons are a little bit salty!  I may price the cadence sensor and see what I would have to do to dive into both of them.  (Lisa's car is going to be paid off in Feb so I am seeing gear money ya know!)

I'm glad you brought this up.  I was going to bring this up after Matt said what his cadence was.  I was in the low 80's when I began to train for triathlon and over time I have been able to adapt a much higher cadence.. I found that just as you said, the high the RPM's the easier it becomes on your legs.

A good fitness test on the bike should leave both your legs and your mind shot but not necessarily blown up.  I think there should be equal amounts of pain for the most part.  After the tests I have completed I would have been able to run something short by the time I changed into running clothes (since I've tested in the winter on the trainer) but nothing more than a few miles.  Now, notice I said "would have been able" and not "wanted to run."  That's the big difference!

BTW, the drill Jeff mentioned is great to develop a smooth, strong pedal stroke with each leg, which is very important.

Dirk, cadence sensors on Amazon and Ebay are running around $38. I really think I got mine cheaper than that though. Also I saw a post in TT last week about a new cycling program that is like TR. They are just starting out so it is free for now and they are planning to charge one flat fee of I think $40 when they are up a running. I guess a name would be helpful . I'll try to dig up the thread.

I experimented with higher cadence a couple of summers ago. All I had to gauge myself was mph on my bike but when I worked harder at a higher cadence my speed increased significantly. Mentally I had to really concentrate to maintain the higher cadence but physically I am much better at that than trying to power through the harder gears.

Tracy I have never had a stress fracture. I really hope that is not what is wrong.

Dina- Cute dog. I'm sure your kids love it.

Sorry I'm very behind. Looks like I have a few pages to read. I've been good with the C25K program. I've been temped to do more, but am forcing myself to follow the program and build back up slowly. So far my achilles tendons (which gave me some trouble when I trained for the HM 2 years ago) have been fine. The last few days I've been keeping a food journal & being good about planning out my meals. Luckliy my husband is on board with me. He started running & dropped some weight a few months ago (he went from 220lbs to 185lbs), so he totally supports making healthier dinners. We've been really good about not having junk food/processed food for years, but we need to work in more salads & vegetables, etc. We want to try and eat more plant-based meals. Again we're trying to make gradual changes so the kids (and ourselves) don't rebel. I made a really good vegetarian chilli the other day, but my kids didn't go for it. My 5 year asked why I was being a "dumb cook"...haha, oh well at least my husband & I liked it & had leftovers for lunch.

I'm taking my road bike in for some adjustments. It's been gathering dust for a bit and the gears were not shifting as smoothly as they should the last ride. With all this talk about HR & cadence, I'm thinking maybe I should start paying attention to my bike computer again (It gives me cadence & HR-gave me something else to look at besides the mph)

I've always been told to keep my rpms high so I don't kill my legs. But it's always been hard for me to judge when to push a harder gear and when to spin faster. I've found in the races that I pushed harder gears, I've had a very crappy run. I had one race where I did not push harder gears & was very disappointed with my bike, but had a PR for my run. It's always a struggle to decide how much do I put into the bike without totally destroying my run.

Here is some of the info TR generated for me from my 20 min test. The total workout was 1:02, if you scroll down you can see the averages during just the test. Nothing spectacular, I just wanted to show the data from the program for those that are curious. They also show everything on a pretty graph. Then the program figured all of my power zones and HR zones. Kind of cool! Now I wonder what kind of data I would get on my tribike..... Not curious enough to do another test though .

Excellent work! That is so nice that your hubby is on board and congratulations to him for losing so much weight.

If you have all of those features on your bike computer you might as well use them!

Yeah, being able to look at cadence, HR, & mph at the same times really helped a lot. I'm so grateful to have my bike and be back in the sport. Lately when I have thought about skipping a ride (wah wah...I'm not as fast...wah wah...I can't ride with my old group) I remember that there are alot of people doing more with less.

I've picked my first race as a 5K in March. My best friend, Jamie (who is also trying to get back into running), will be doing it with me.

RunningYogini - 2013-01-04 5:46 PM The top of my foot hurts.  At the Thanksgiving Turkey Trot, it felt like it had a bad cramp in it.  Of course, I raced.  This weekend after running on the icy and snowy roads, it hurts worse.  I'm concerned about stress fracture.  What are the symptoms of a foot stress fracture?  I can pretty much pinpoint the spot.  Have any of you experienced a a foot stress fracture?  Help!  I guess if I have to lay off running for awhile, now is the best time.  I'm going to bag my Sunday 10 mile run.  I'm afraid that would not be good for it. 

How are you lacing your shoes?  My wife went thru that and the guy at the shoe store told her how to properly lace the shoes.  I'll get her to post a pic of her shoes.  It cured her problem.

MTA: This is Karl's wife, Pink Socks.  He wanted me to post a pix of my lacing but now that I read your symptoms, I'm afraid that the lacing isn't for that problem.  Since your issue is a feeling of a bad cramp, it is different from my problem where my feet would swell and the lacing would press into the top of the foot causing it to be red, raw, and irritated - almost pre-blister.  I wish that I could help but I haven't had that issue.

For others with lacing issues, a picture of the lacing technique is below.  Word of warning, it works beautifully for me but on both of my ultras, I've lost toenails.  I don't know - might have lost them anyway with standard lacing. 

 I am checking into this right now.  I thought they were more expensive.  I should have checked Ebay before.  The price I had checked some time ago was from the Garmin site.  I also had only one bike the last time I checked and it already had a cycle-computer on it.  That is certainly within what I think I can spend.

Now that you have a cadence device are you planning on using that to get your cadence to a level similar to Jeff's suggestions?  Over my time training on the bike I would absolutely agree with Jeff's suggestions.  There's no question a higher cadence makes for an easier ride once you develop the ability to pedal smoothly.

Since the topic is at the forefront right now, pedaling efficiency is pretty important to develop.  As Jeff stated, it takes time to develop a higher cadence.  I have taken some time to allow my cadence to get to a mid 90's standard.  I allowed my adjustment to take a long time so I would develop it correctly.  Some things to look for as each person tries to begin pedaling faster are smooth pedal stroke, no bouncing, no big shoulder movements, no rocking on the seat.  I am certain there are others and maybe the other mentors can provide some other things to look for as well.

RunningYogini - 2013-01-04 5:46 PM The top of my foot hurts.  At the Thanksgiving Turkey Trot, it felt like it had a bad cramp in it.  Of course, I raced.  This weekend after running on the icy and snowy roads, it hurts worse.  I'm concerned about stress fracture.  What are the symptoms of a foot stress fracture?  I can pretty much pinpoint the spot.  Have any of you experienced a a foot stress fracture?  Help!  I guess if I have to lay off running for awhile, now is the best time.  I'm going to bag my Sunday 10 mile run.  I'm afraid that would not be good for it. 

I haven't experienced a stress fracture but I have had pains in the tops of my feet occasionally.  Have you changed running brands of shoes recently?  Some of the symptoms to look for are a little more persistent than after one run.  Have you had a problem in the very recent past with the same pain?  Is there swelling?  More swelling after a run or possibly a bike?  (I wouldn't expect that unless you had a hard bike that required a lot of pedal mashing interval work.)  If you have noticed pain for a short time, has the onset of pain become earlier into a run or remained the same.  If this is the first time you have experienced this pain I wouldn't get to excited just yet.  Just proceed slowly and be hypersensitive to what's happening down there.

You might try a walk in the normal terrain you run and see if there are similar problems or if they have diminished.  If you can walk without any problems then take up running short and slow (and close to home) to check if that remains a problem.

Learning how to do this can actually be kind of easy.  You'll need to find a long stretch of road that doesn't change elevation much or have false flats and so on. Simply pedal in a particular gear for a little while, a mile or two, and continually check your cadence, speed, HR and RPE.  Then grab a gear that makes the pedaling easier BUT at a higher cadence.  Depending on how fast you are pedaling for the second part of the test you may feel really jerky, this simply means you are pedaling too fast.  Try slowing the pedals down a little bit, not too much, and pay attention to the same metrics.  Over time you should be able to see how pedaling ease can be effected by gearing.

KWDreamun - 2013-01-05 5:51 AM

RunningYogini - 2013-01-04 5:46 PM The top of my foot hurts.  At the Thanksgiving Turkey Trot, it felt like it had a bad cramp in it.  Of course, I raced.  This weekend after running on the icy and snowy roads, it hurts worse.  I'm concerned about stress fracture.  What are the symptoms of a foot stress fracture?  I can pretty much pinpoint the spot.  Have any of you experienced a a foot stress fracture?  Help!  I guess if I have to lay off running for awhile, now is the best time.  I'm going to bag my Sunday 10 mile run.  I'm afraid that would not be good for it. 

How are you lacing your shoes?  My wife went thru that and the guy at the shoe store told her how to properly lace the shoes.  I'll get her to post a pic of her shoes.  It cured her problem.

MTA: This is Karl's wife, Pink Socks.  He wanted me to post a pix of my lacing but now that I read your symptoms, I'm afraid that the lacing isn't for that problem.  Since your issue is a feeling of a bad cramp, it is different from my problem where my feet would swell and the lacing would press into the top of the foot causing it to be red, raw, and irritated - almost pre-blister.  I wish that I could help but I haven't had that issue.

For others with lacing issues, a picture of the lacing technique is below.  Word of warning, it works beautifully for me but on both of my ultras, I've lost toenails.  I don't know - might have lost them anyway with standard lacing. 

Lacing could be another cause if you got them a little too tight for a particular run.  I actually haven't tied a pair of running shoes for YEARS!!  I have used speed laces in all of my shoes that don't require any adjustment ever once they are placed in a new pair of shoes correctly.

For black toenails (or lost), it seems that can also be caused from to small a shoe or a cramped toe box as well.  Sometimes however it is simply a longer than normal run, i.e. a marathon or ultra that has moved a person beyond what the body is used to.  So many more steps over a longer period of time keeps the foot sliding forward enough to cramp the toes toward the end of the shoes creating the problem.