Experior's Group - CLOSED (Page 22)

Hopefully I'll be able to get out tomorrow for my long run.  Supposed to be raining in the afternoon, but if it's not too heavy I'll go out.  Tired of missing my long runs.

Scout

Been there, except it was a dead rabbit in the window well.   Enjoy your beers, they're well deserved.  That smell is just awful.

Scout

The smell is awful.. I was just thinking I could save myself some time and send my White WestHighlander (Westie named Scooter..in the PIC) into the crawl space for me (that is what they were bred for) and see if he can find it faster.  Thing is he'd probably wouldn't bring it back out.  My wife would just love that.

It'll come!  At least you were able to get out.



Well, I guess I should be clear, in case you didn't read or forgot from my bio (page 1!) that I've been doing this for less time than you.  So bear that in mind...

But I think what you report is normal for a lot of people, especially people who started endurance training with decent cardio fitness.  It takes a while for your running-specific muscles to catch up with your heart fitness.  (I didn't have this problem, because I started with zero cardio fitness!  Not that I'm advocating that method...)

Now, here's the part you won't want to hear, but sorry, I have to be honest:  you are probably going too fast too often.  When we are running the sorts of distance you're talking about, fatigue comes to a large extent from the fact that our anaerobic energy pathways poop out after a while.  Whenever we run (or do anything else), the energy that we use comes from both aerobic and anaerobic sources (of ATP, the basic fuel source for the muscles).  The proportion is determined by the intensity of effort.  More effort means higher proportion of anaerobic sources of energy.  The aerobic engines can keep on going more or less forever (assuming that the cardiovascular system can provide the needed oxygen), but the anaerobic system cannot.  Once anaerobic demand exceeds capacity to supply, fatigue sets in.  This is essentially why you can walk for much longer than you can run -- walking uses almost exclusively the aerobic engine, while running always uses at least some anaerobic sources of energy, more the higher the intensity.

So if your muscles tire before your cardiovascular system is working overtime, it's because you are overtaxing your anaerobic system, i.e., your intensity is too high.  It has almost nothing to do with strength.  I'd bet dollars to donuts that you are stronger than I am in the sense of being able to lift heavy weights with your legs.  It has to do with your ability to use your aerobic energy-production system more, and your anaerobic energy-production system less, at the same pace.

How do you achieve that?  Slow down!  You have to train your aerobic system more.   If you continue to run hard too often, you will continue to overtax your anaerobic system (which is fine -- it will get stronger), and more important, undertax your aerobic system (which is not fine -- it might still get stronger, but not as quickly as if you taxed it more).

Three more comments:  (1) 'taxing your aerobic system' does not mean 'running until you are out of breath'.  There is a place for that (see comment 2!), but when you are running that hard you are already pretty highly anaerobic.  You have to trust that although the pace is easy ('conversational', as they say), you really are training those muscles to make more energy more efficiently.  (If you care, I can say more about how that happens, but for now I'll leave the physiology out of it.)  (2)  Most of your running should be at this 'conversational' pace, but you do want to stress the cardiovascular system from time to time as well, and this means running harder.  (3) At first, you will still feel that your legs tire before you are winded.  In fact, that's exactly what you want to happen.  But you should eventually see two changes.  First, you will be able to go longer before this happens.  Second, you will be able to go faster at that 'conversational' pace.

I think that an excellent way to gauge your paces is to use either Daniels' running formula (he has a book) or the McMillan running calculator.  The paces that they recommend will feel glacial at first.  You'll feel like you're walking.  But it works.  At least, it works for me.  (And these guys are seriously successful running coaches, so I assume it works for their athletes too.)  When I started running, I went too fast all the time.  I ended up getting not much faster, then injured, and almost gave up.  Then I started paying attention to the 'go slower to get faster' mantra, and by gosh, it worked.




I like it.  Some people on this site (notably, Jorge, whom I otherwise respect a lot) like to say how awful it is.  Sure, there could be more careful attention paid to the scientific literature, blah, blah, blah, and maybe some of the principles are outdated or whatever.  For folks like you and me, I think it is pretty good.  It introduces and explains a lot of important concepts like periodization and different types of intensity, and so on.  It'll take a while to digest everything there, but once you do, you might want to read some other books just to get a sense of where others might disagree with him.

I have to agree with Scout, that is a revolting smell.  Our yard is full of Hickory trees, so it's squirrel heaven, and I've had to dig quite a few dead ones from under the house, in the attic, etc...  Just not fun.  You definitely deserve a reward.

Can you elaborate? Just kidding I love reading this kind of stuff. I've been reading the dissertation you referenced and really enjoying it.

You're driving the point I don't want to hear and that is go slower and you're right. I do tend to go to fast and slow down when I catch myself. I'm also wondering if maybe I should not use my HR and stick to using pace. I just started using my HRM and currently don't have my zones setup, I used an estimate. I'm planning to perform LT test first week of Feb.

What I should have done today is stick to the pace that was calculated with the SmartCoach tool on runnersworld. The pace I was suppose to go at was 10:15 and I avg 9:30. But also, today, I followed my estimated HR (low zone 2) and was fine cardio wise but not for my legs. So, based on your great explanation, I will set my Garmin to scream at me when going to fast and use my HRM as a guide and to gather stats for comparisons.

Sylvain

I briefly saw Sylvain's note (which I totally related to) and checked out the McMillian calculator (which, when I typed in my 10K time, could not believe the pace they recommended).  Really glad you explained more, b/c when I went out for my run today, I was confused - basic question was (and is), if I am going to go a specific distance (say seven miles) or a specific time (say an hour), is it better to go as fast as I can, or does it not matter as long as you're out there for the time/distance, or is better to go at a slow pace (e.g. McMillian pace)?  I recognize that workouts should be varied, but I am generally time constrained... so if I have 1 hour, better to go fast as I can (keeping a steady pace) or at a conversational pace? (and it would be okay to say one week do it one way and the next the other).  Also, does this apply to bike as well?  Thanks and no rush!
-Stu


Edited by juneapple 2010-01-24 7:41 AM

For my long runs (like tomorrow)  I set a goal for my run and the goal is to run at a slower pace rather than my normal pace.  I have to force myself to stay within that target range which is generally between a 10 and 11 per mile.  Was able to do it the last time I did a long run; certainly was not easy, but it was enjoyable.

Here are the results from this week.  It was a week of steady progress... of digging down (or belly crawls) to stay on track.  Seemed like everyone had some obstacles to overcome this week to stay on track.  Still a few I haven't heard from (or in my pre-coffee state, I missed by mistake).  If I'm missing your update, just drop me a note and I'll edit this post.

Congrats to Mark and Ted who hit their goals a week early!!  But you still have to keep it off... no celebrating, guys!  We're going to have to be super supportive of Heidi as she works off all those sauce covered veggies and conference foods (they always nail me too).

Phil is getting very close to having lost 100lbs total... which is frickin' awe inspiring to me.  Honored to be in this group with you!

I'm pysched b/c I hit my goal of 7 hours of training in a week this past week (though last night at 10 I had to do some exercises to reach 7 hours).  Wouldn't have made it without being able to get outside 3x this week.  My body feels it though.  I'm sore everywhere today.  Tracking these goals has been a big help to me.  I felt extra pressure b/c I put this thing together... lol!  Thanks everyone for participating!

One week left in January.  Everyone has made progress... keep up the great work!

	Weight Loss Goal	Progress	Other Goal	Progress
Brian	-10 (-6)	-6.8	2 days/week core work	Met 3x
Heidi	-4	1.0	Run 3x / week + Swim	Met 1x
Mark	-4	-4.0
Melinda	-4	-1.8
Michael	-6	-4.6	750m of kick drills/week	Met 3x
Pete	-6	-5.0
Phil	-8	-5.0	1 mile non-stop swim	1200m
Scout	-10 (-5)	-6.2
Stu	-8 (-6)	-6.0	Reach 7 hrs of training/week	7hrs
Sylvain			Core workouts 2x / week
Ted	-5	-5.0

Edited by juneapple 2010-01-25 9:16 AM

If you don't have your zones set up properly, then yes, go by pace.  And yes, do it as a field test; don't estimate or use any of those formulas.  They are notoriously inaccurate.  I used to run by HR (based on LT field test), and I probably will do so again once my volume is back up.  But I always pay attention to pace as well.  I think that they both work pretty well.  That's not to say that I always manage to slow down when I'm supposed to -- it's hard!



That's a pretty big difference.  If 10:15 is the correct pace for that run,then 9:30 really is way too fast.  Impressive, but too fast.

It sounds to me like an LT field test in the near future is a good idea.  Beware -- that test is HARD.  The first time I tried it, I went out too hard and didn't make it to the end.  The second time I got the pace more or less right, but also got sick at the end.  Be sure you are well rested for the test.  And let us know how it goes -- I love to hear tales of others' training misery. 

It really depends.  Here's a general principle:  the less you train, the higher proportion of your training should be higher-intensity.  HOWEVER, there's a limit, here.  To take an extreme example:  If one were to just go out once per week and run an all-out 10K, well, let's just say that wouldn't last long before injury.

And even if you are training less, you still need to spend a good deal of time in that conversational zone, because there are specific adaptations that happen there that you won't get in other zones.  As we're talking about McMillan, I'll refer you to a really excellent article of his, here.  There's a lot in there about how much to do at each zone, when to do it, why, etc.  Of course, he's just talking running, so one does have to figure out how to work in S/B as well!

I try to keep it relatively simple for myself, especially right now (still ramping up volume, not doing any race-specific training).  My general guideline at this point in the season (which I'm not always great at following, alas) is to do around 85% of my running in the 'Endurance' zone and 15% in the 'stamina' zone.  Getting close to race time, I would add in more stamina running and some speed.

But writing this, I have to acknowledge that I fell down pretty badly this week, giving in to the temptation to run too fast.  My long run was too fast by a lot...  Maybe next month I'll set myself the (publicly declared!) goal of sticking to my paces!

Yes, this all applies to bike as well.  The main difference there is that one can generally handle a bit more intensity on the bike without injury.  I find that the HRM really comes into its own on the bike, because pace is more or less meaningless (and I cannot afford a power meter). But HR can be tricky too, as it is affected by many things.

x2 on the congrats to everyone.



Wow.  Just wow.  Great job Phil.

Wow... that was a real eye-opener (excellent article).  I've been coming from the "running's running" school of training.  The intervals were my first glimpse into another world... now I see endurance training is the other puppy I've got to train.  Okay... got it.  Thanks so much Michael. 
-Stu

I don't know why it's taken me so long to realize this, but swimming is the same way.  I started swimming a year ago, and have been swimming the same speed the whole time.  I just recently realized that I'm not getting faster, because I'm never practicing swimming faster!  Workouts in a binder just arrived, so tomorrow morning I'm going to start the suggested program that they have listed in that book.  I'll TT once a month or so to see if there's any improvement after doing a speedwork or tempo swim every week.  Going to do my best to get in the pool regularly 3 times a week.

BTW, nice easy 12 miler today in the damp air.  Not raining today, but not not raining either.

Scout

\

Coming down like Cats and Dogs here in Oregon today.  I would be soaked by the time I got a couple blocks.  Have been waiting for it to slow down some or stop;  my long run doesn't appear to be likely today.  I will postpone until tomorrow and see what the weather looks like early on in the am or later in the evening.

Great Week Everyone. 

Good point -- yes, it applies to swimming as well.  And what is true about the bike is doubly true about the swim -- you can tolerate a lot more intensity.  Again, that doesn't mean that you NEVER swim slowly, but you can afford to do a higher percentage of hard swimming.  Save the easy swimming for warm-ups, cool-downs, and drills.  The rest you can do hard, to varying degrees, of course.  For the most part, let the distance dictate your effort.  So sets of 50s or 100s you go very hard.  Sets of 200s or 400s you go easier, out of necessity.

I'll be interested to hear what you think about Workouts in a Binder.  I've been meaning to get that, but my plan now is being given to me by a local (and very fast) triathlete, so I'll stick with him for now.

And...nice run today Scout!

Hey Guys! You've all been busy for the last few days!
I just got back this afternoon from a 4 day conference with the company I work for. They packed our days with all kinds of education stuff. Then, set up evening activities that some one in corporate assumed would be fun. But, I don't really drink. So it was not my idea of a great time.
The one morning I could've hit the treadmill, was a bust. The hotel fire alarm went off before 3 AM, and we couldn't get back into our rooms until after 4. When my alarm rang, I really didnt want to get up.
i did get to play 4 man beach volleyball on Saturday, which was a pretty good workout!
No idea about my weight. I'll check it in the morning.

Don't you hate that?  I was part of the committee that setup a conference a few years ago, and every time that I brought up leaving the nights open - because not everyone is a partier, I was looked at like I had 3 heads.  I don't drink much either, and I can't stand bars.  I had a conversation with my manager about how the night time activities were nothing that I was interested in, and wouldn't be attending.  He suggested that I at least show my face.  I bolted every night at the first opportunity that I found.

Scout

Well just got back from hockey. I'm proud to say only had one beer and came home. I normaly have four and a pound of wings. I didn't get core #2 in this week, still working on my schedule and finding holes to fit it in. My workout area in the basement is not accessible as my neice lives here during the week. If I don't get down there early enough I loose my chance (well that's my excuse). This week I will get two done.

Coming back from daughter's swim lesson I saw an individual jogging at an easy pace (sloooow pace) and he looked like someone who gets out alot. First thing I thougth was the discussions we've had and how I need to take it easy and be patient.

I have two goals for Feb., well I have more but I'll share two:
1. Stick to proper pace, Michael you joining me on this one? I believe I saw you mention this. (thanks Michael and others who drove the point in)
2. I want to loose 5 lbs.

Good work to those who have reached their goals.
Sylvain

I've been to a few work conferences and one thing I hate about them is how the jam pack the whole day and you get no down time, the worse is they also want you to stay in touch with the office to make sure everything is fine for which they don't allow anytime for so you need to do it during 10 min breaks and meal times.

Sylvain

I checked my weight this morning. I'm actually up 2 lbs from last week. UGGH! I'm sure that has to do with no healthy vegetarian options this past 4 days. Fruits and veggies were at a minimum. And what few veggies they had, were smothered in sauce and butter.

Had swim workout this morning, day 1 of week 3 for the 0 to 1 mile program. Felt great, but I think I messed the lap count because my 100m lap avg has dropped down considerably. I expected it to drop somewhat because I had less breaks but 30sec is alot bigger then I expected. So I took 50m off in my log to show what I think it should have been.

Any ideas how some of you keep track of lap counts on the longer distance? I think I'm loosing track cause I'm concentrating so much on my technique.

Sylvain

Stu, thanks. I have been focusing on that 100 lb. mark myself. When I hit it I'll post some before/after photos and maybe one of those "that guy" holding the giant pants photos. ; )

You guys/gals in this group have inspired me. I get so motivated when I see what everyone here is able to accomplish. When I chose this group I thought I might be in a little over my head. But, it is said if you have a goal reach up to people that are where you want to be. Now I can now see myself doing that 12 mile slow run, get that 50 mile bike ride in or finish 3 mile swim. Thanks everyone.

Phil 

So I'm back on the net after fighting malware on the home pc over the weekend. Today should be fun at work, it's time to give employee performance appraisals. Couple of people aren't gonna be happy.

So planning a good trainer ride when I get home to work off that stress.

Hey Phil - that is one serious accomplishment!  You should be proud!

Swimming fast is freakin hard!  I did my first workouts in a binder pool session today and really pushed myself.  Looking forward to wednesday when I get back in the water.  Hopefully a trainer ride at lunch time today.

Scout