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2011-05-27 2:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
older2533 - 2011-05-27 2:01 PM

I like Nuun.  But stopped using it for two reasons: it has 1) artificial ingredients, and 2) no calories.  

The no calories is a good thing sometimes, but I'm guessing Ernesto wants you to actually get calories along with the water and various salts in sports drinks when actually racing or in the middle of a hard training session. 

Chris once again right on the money. Calories are needed during exercise and the longer the workout, the more you need to fuel (in exponential numbers). Being aerobic during workouts does not mean you’ll run 100% on fats, there’s no “tipping point” where you switch from 100% fats to a 100% sugars. There is a clear way to measure this by doing a respiratory quotient test where they measure the gases that the body is expelling (out the mouth I mean, get your head out of the gutter!).

A cheaper way to do it is follow the (180-age)+/-5 to stay at the maximum aerobic levels, where the proportion of fats/sugars will be somewhere around 50/50.

Now the problem is this, you can only store around 2,000kCals of carbs in your body (and that is after a carbo load, counting liver, blood and muscles). When you start endurance exercise you start using some of this fuel at rates varying depending on your effort; there’s always a deficit of carbs because most people will not process any more than 400kCals an hour (they say guys like Mark Allen trained their bodies to digest 1,200), therefore constant fueling DURING the workout is necessary for good execution. I learned the hard way by getting to the famous “bonk” a couple of times where my body went to a complete shut down for glycogen depletion. Trust me, it is not nice, it feels like somebody pulls the plug off you all of a sudden and in less than a quarter mile you go from jogging to on your knees and dying. Comparably, it looks like a K.O. in boxing.



2011-05-27 3:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
evillarroel - 2011-05-27 2:33 PM
older2533 - 2011-05-27 2:01 PM

I like Nuun.  But stopped using it for two reasons: it has 1) artificial ingredients, and 2) no calories.  

The no calories is a good thing sometimes, but I'm guessing Ernesto wants you to actually get calories along with the water and various salts in sports drinks when actually racing or in the middle of a hard training session. 

Chris once again right on the money. Calories are needed during exercise and the longer the workout, the more you need to fuel (in exponential numbers). Being aerobic during workouts does not mean you’ll run 100% on fats, there’s no “tipping point” where you switch from 100% fats to a 100% sugars. There is a clear way to measure this by doing a respiratory quotient test where they measure the gases that the body is expelling (out the mouth I mean, get your head out of the gutter!).

A cheaper way to do it is follow the (180-age)+/-5 to stay at the maximum aerobic levels, where the proportion of fats/sugars will be somewhere around 50/50.

Now the problem is this, you can only store around 2,000kCals of carbs in your body (and that is after a carbo load, counting liver, blood and muscles). When you start endurance exercise you start using some of this fuel at rates varying depending on your effort; there’s always a deficit of carbs because most people will not process any more than 400kCals an hour (they say guys like Mark Allen trained their bodies to digest 1,200), therefore constant fueling DURING the workout is necessary for good execution. I learned the hard way by getting to the famous “bonk” a couple of times where my body went to a complete shut down for glycogen depletion. Trust me, it is not nice, it feels like somebody pulls the plug off you all of a sudden and in less than a quarter mile you go from jogging to on your knees and dying. Comparably, it looks like a K.O. in boxing.

Great summary.  I think another pertinent point when it comes to nutrition during training is the axiom, "train how you race".  If you are going to utilize gels/ sports drinks during your races, then you should utilize the same during your training.  Besides getting proficient at opening and eating gels on the run, you also need to find out ahead of time how your body tolerates the various products.  I am lucky in that not much bothers my stomach once I get going.  But others have real issues finding gels/sports drinks that they can digest easily.  Me - I love GUs, especially the 2x ceffeine ones.

2011-05-27 6:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
Thanks Chris and Ernesto.  I am still struggling with that.  Since my husband loves Gatorade we have it and I've been watering it down when I'm on the bike and go for a longer run.  I was trying several other things searching for the answer.  He also loves Hammer and I can tolerate there gels with no problem but I've never tried anything other than that to see what I LIKE!...  Still searching.  
2011-05-27 7:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
alfredo1414 - 2011-05-27 10:27 AM

 

Good day gang,

Ernesto, need your help, I’m feeling kind of down, my training is not going as I hope for, don’t know if its the summer, the heat, or the wind that lately seems to be a norm here at El Paso!..  the thing is that my numbers are not as good as I thought, my long runs are in the range of 10 min/mil, with a HR of +7. The bike is not bad, I think, average 21mil/hr with a HR of -5. And the swim, oh!! The swim, actually I haven’t recorded any time but im guessing that its around 3min/100yds.. 

That will not get me in any 1/2 im right? ...   The last 2 weeks I stopped using the garming just to enjoy the activities a bit more, but at the end of the day in the back of my mind the numbers start popping from total time and distance its kinda frustating, I will start using the Garmin this weekend.

And to top it all next Tuesday Im back in school, Im not complaining because at this point this is my top priority. I only know that I could do so much better with training if I see some improvement and competitive numbers..  ooh!!  Wait, I had developed some knee pain, I think that its because of the shoes that the guys from the store recommended, they are kind of stiff, planning to get a new pair of the ones I had before.. 

To improve; I plan to do a ½ Im on Sep 23, do you think this is a doable goal? Also, next week I’ll do a 5k run, just to get the race spirit in. no sub 20, my PR is 28 min 5k.

Alfredo,

Don't worry about the pace, the summer in Texas can kill your heart rate while you run mostly. The reason is simple: think of your heart as a radiator pumping "cool" blood to your muscles. The hotter it gets, the faster the ticker will go therefore beats that could have been used for the muscles end up being used for refrigeration.

The phenomena is not that much on the bike because you sweat and the higher speed cools your body down.

Keep training, you're fine. Where's your half IM taking place? 

2011-05-27 8:40 PM
in reply to: #3436601

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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED

I just posted some race pictures from Ironman. If you want to see them they're public and this is the link:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2092819197271.2125720.1149003123&l=782b09226c
2011-05-27 10:07 PM
in reply to: #3522635

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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
Cool pictures. What is that on your right wrist? A separate watch?


2011-05-27 10:58 PM
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Subject: First Run in Vibram Bikila LS

Did my first true run in the Bikilas tonight, after my awful swim.  I was pretty pleased with the run.  My feet felt light, muscles feel pretty good.  The lace broke, so I'll be exchanging them this weekend.

Oh, and I ate a GU gel before my swim and drank Gatorade before and during my run.    Maybe it's the low electrolytes that have been causing my leg cramps.  Thanks for all the tips guys!

2011-05-28 12:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
evillarroel - 2011-05-27 7:40 PM

I just posted some race pictures from Ironman. If you want to see them they're public and this is the link:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2092819197271.2125720.1149003123&l=782b09226c

Ernesto, great pictures, definitely looks like you were having fun most of the time!

2011-05-28 6:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED

older2533 - 2011-05-27 10:07 PM Cool pictures. What is that on your right wrist? A separate watch?
Yup, it is a regular chronometer where I kept tabs of the overall race time. I just hit it once and let it go.

The problem with the Garmin is that it won't tell you overall time and I had a goal in mind...

2011-05-28 11:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED

Ernesto,

Could you please take a look at my bike ride this morning?http://connect.garmin.com/activity/88504903

 

The second lap is the Maple Grove Tri Sprint Course. First and third Laps were just warm up and cool down.

I was only a minute faster than when I raced this course last year on a $150 hybrid bike with 1.5" tires as opposed to my Trek Equinox Tri bike I used today.   On the other hand, being in a race does make you try harder.  In particular, I'm not good at reading heart rates and knowing whether this speed was acceptable given my heart rate.  My average heart rate on this course today was 134 which is pretty close to 180-age for me (180-48=132).  



Edited by older2533 2011-05-28 11:14 AM
2011-05-28 12:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
older2533 - 2011-05-28 11:10 AM

Ernesto,

Could you please take a look at my bike ride this morning?http://connect.garmin.com/activity/88504903

 

The second lap is the Maple Grove Tri Sprint Course. First and third Laps were just warm up and cool down.

I was only a minute faster than when I raced this course last year on a $150 hybrid bike with 1.5" tires as opposed to my Trek Equinox Tri bike I used today.   On the other hand, being in a race does make you try harder.  In particular, I'm not good at reading heart rates and knowing whether this speed was acceptable given my heart rate.  My average heart rate on this course today was 134 which is pretty close to 180-age for me (180-48=132).  

Chris:

Do you have HR data for last year's sprint? I'm going to guess that your HR was lower today when you rode vs. last year - suggesting that in a Sprint today (where you are "redlined" pretty much the whole way) that you could generate greater speed at that higher HR.  At 134 you were very aerobic - I'm sure in a race you would be much faster.  If I were you I'd be pretty pumped at faster speed and much lower HR (assumed).

Nothing says you can't come back next week and "race" that course to see how you compare from last year.... 



Edited by dangremond 2011-05-28 12:39 PM


2011-05-28 1:58 PM
in reply to: #3522578

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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
The half will take place in elephant butte in new mexico, its like a 3 hr drive from here, it has the sprint, olympic and half. Not very good reviews on the organization, and this will also be the first year that they incorporate the half to the race..Thank you man, guess its just the heat goin in to my head!!
2011-05-28 2:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
older2533 - 2011-05-28 11:10 AM

Ernesto,

Could you please take a look at my bike ride this morning?http://connect.garmin.com/activity/88504903

 

The second lap is the Maple Grove Tri Sprint Course. First and third Laps were just warm up and cool down.

I was only a minute faster than when I raced this course last year on a $150 hybrid bike with 1.5" tires as opposed to my Trek Equinox Tri bike I used today.   On the other hand, being in a race does make you try harder.  In particular, I'm not good at reading heart rates and knowing whether this speed was acceptable given my heart rate.  My average heart rate on this course today was 134 which is pretty close to 180-age for me (180-48=132).  

Not bad at all Chris, at that HR your output was actually quite good. Let's keep in mind that race effort should be much higher, the comparison VS the last year may not be a valid one for many reasons.

If you want to know where you stack on bike fitness, you're somewhere in the middle of the pack, kinda towards the front (around the best 35% in you gender). If we compare the run though you're in the range between 3 and 5% of the overall field, quite a bit higher in your AG. If we get your bike and swim up to par with your run you'll be winning many races.

I have to remind you one more time, you need to emphasize the bike and swim and do a lot of bricks (pretty much every time you're on the bike) for muscular reasons that I can break down for you some more. Also, I have to insist one more time that you need to make an effort and find a group to ride with and another one to swim with. Later on (maybe a couple of years) you'll be to the point where you will get more from training by yourself but we're not there by any means now.

2011-05-28 2:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED

Ok Ernesto...  

I went to my running group and had the owner of HR Sport Performance look at my foot... (He is part of a sport medicine group as well as body kinesiology to help athletes get their bodies working together.  He did my original assessment to find what muscles are weak and how to develop them with out overcompensating and overdevelop others).  ANYWAY>>>

Mizuno has reconstructed the toe box on there shoes, as well as made the heal pocket deeper.  The change in design made what was once my size a little too small.  This is combination with the other changes caused me to compensate and in fact curl my toes.  The strain pulled my arch and the back of my knee.  He ran a few tests on biomechanics with and without the foot soldiers that I wear and the foot soldiers are good.  The store swapped out my shoes for a larger pair (half size) and with the new foot soldiers all seems good.  Now I just need to rest and let my feet heal and I should be as good as new.  

The kids still were able to run!  They ran 2.47 miles in 27 minutes (7 & 11 yrs old).  I stayed back and looked over the water and oranges for the rest of the club!  

2011-05-28 2:59 PM
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Subject: Training Check

Did a high cadence training ride today.  Tough wind.  20 MPH headwind on the way out, but boy I was flying on the way back.  Took twice as long out as back.  What a day!

Hope everyone has a great Memorial Day holiday!

Ernesto,

Signing up for the Metroplex Sprint.  I notice you are racing on Sat.  Should I sign up for Sat or Sun?  I'm assuming no wet suits for this race.

Also, my swim is really suffering, so I'm thinking of doing lots of swim workouts between now and the race with maybe a bike or run thrown in every so often to change it up.  Your advice please?

2011-05-28 3:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED

 

@Jen So glad you figured out the problem.  Better now than after!!

@Alfredo Hang in there buddy.  You will be fine.  You're in the mentoring group that rocks!  That's got to count for something.

@Carol how are your races going?



Edited by jdiis 2011-05-28 3:02 PM


2011-05-28 3:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED

Just wanted to wish you all  great weather on Sunday for whatever you're doing! It is looking like a fine day here and I'm off for a scenic morning  ride (6am, still dark... 'winter').

2011-05-29 8:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Training Check
jdiis - 2011-05-28 2:59 PM

Did a high cadence training ride today.  Tough wind.  20 MPH headwind on the way out, but boy I was flying on the way back.  Took twice as long out as back.  What a day!

Hope everyone has a great Memorial Day holiday!

Ernesto,

Signing up for the Metroplex Sprint.  I notice you are racing on Sat.  Should I sign up for Sat or Sun?  I'm assuming no wet suits for this race.

Also, my swim is really suffering, so I'm thinking of doing lots of swim workouts between now and the race with maybe a bike or run thrown in every so often to change it up.  Your advice please?

Do Saturday so I see you! It never hurts to swim, do it more! You don't have to cut down on run and bike volume, swims have very low impact on fatigue but a lot of gains.
2011-05-29 8:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED

Check out these two videos:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBMvtooeXo4&feature=player_embedded

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edBOj0R51lM
2011-05-29 11:10 AM
in reply to: #3523048

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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED

Mitch,

I don't have heart rate data for last year's race.  I wasn't wearing a Garmin.  (Didn't own one, in fact.)  I was trying harder, I think.  My mantra during the bike was "this is a race. this is a race. this is a race."  The idea being that, at least for me, it's easy to "fall asleep" and slack off rather than push it, and the mantra reminded me to push it.

evillarroel - 2011-05-28 2:11 PM

If you want to know where you stack on bike fitness, you're somewhere in the middle of the pack, kinda towards the front (around the best 35% in you gender). If we compare the run though you're in the range between 3 and 5% of the overall field, quite a bit higher in your AG. If we get your bike and swim up to par with your run you'll be winning many races.

I have to remind you one more time, you need to emphasize the bike and swim and do a lot of bricks (pretty much every time you're on the bike) for muscular reasons that I can break down for you some more. Also, I have to insist one more time that you need to make an effort and find a group to ride with and another one to swim with. Later on (maybe a couple of years) you'll be to the point where you will get more from training by yourself but we're not there by any means now.

Ernesto,

Thank you for the praise, but I think you are being a bit generous.  If I run the 10k part of my upcoming Olympic tri at my half marathon pace (which is my goal pace), based on last year's results, this puts me 7th out of 17 in my division (45-49 males) for the run portion.   That's middle of the pack.

Overall, I guess this race just has some fast men my age.  The median swim (again for my division) was 29:32, the median bike was 1:13:27 (or 21.2 mph), and the median run was 47:31 (or a 7:39 pace).  The median overall time was 2:36:45.  I would be thrilled with that time. The winner of my age group did the swim portion in 19:21 (what!), the bike portion in 1:04:02 and the 10K run in 43:08.  

As for joining groups, I'm not blowing you off.  But my schedule is demanding.  I have five children between the ages of 7 and 14, all whom are in various activities and my wife can't do all the shuttling around herself.  I find time to train by being flexible regarding when I do it, fitting it around other demands on my time.  Groups, on the other hand, meet at a certain time and day of the week.  So there is a bike group I would like to join, and plan on doing as soon as I can, but every single Wednesday evening so far this season, I've had a conflict.  One week work, next week one kid's activity, next week another's and so on.  

I am reading Maffetone, however, and am, for the most part, following the training schedule you set up for me for the last four weeks before my Olympic triathlon.   So I am listening. 



Edited by older2533 2011-05-29 11:19 AM
2011-05-29 3:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED

Had one of those workouts you want to forget this afternoon.  This was my last long run before my half marathon next week.  I planned on running 10 miles nice and easy (shooting for 9:00/mile pace).  I planned on getting up early but my beautiful wife convinced me to stay up late and watch the Afleck movie, The Town, with her (we gave it 7.5 stars out of 10 - good movie).

Anyway, decided to workout midday when my youngest napped.  So had lunch of leftover chinese (Moo Shu Pork and Fried Rice).  About 1/2 hour later began my workout.  Between the heat/humidity, heavy lunch and I think too much nutrition (GU about 15 minutes before start, gatorade throughout and one GU at 3 miles and one at 6 miles (as I'm writing this I am shaking my head saying to myself what was I thinking) my stomach was seriously off starting around 4.5 miles.  

The run was up hill from 4 miles through 8 miles and I ended up walking alot to keep the HR in zone 3 which was higher than I wanted.  I felt miserable from the midpoint to the end.  Ended up with avg hr of about 162 and avg pace of 9:50/mile.

Very disappointing run one week out from my race.



2011-05-29 3:30 PM
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Subject: Swims Have Been Awful

My swimming has been awful.  I feel weak, slower than I have been and out of breath.  I'm doing mostly open water, now without a wetsuit.  I'm not sure exactly how far the distance is, guessing about 150 yards by using GPS along shoreline.  This morning I went up and back (about 300 yd) rested for about 1 min and then repeated that.  Then, after resting another 90 sec or so, went up once (150 yd) and decided that I was done.  I did try 25 strokes slow and 25 strokes fast today.  I seemed to need to alternate between freestyle, side stroke and a little back stroke just to finish the 150 yard lengths without completely stopping.

On a positive note, my sighting is getting better.  I correct my crooked swimming sooner.

I know this isn't much to go on, but I feel like I'm regressing and I don't know what to do about it.  Thoughts anyone?

2011-05-29 3:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Swims Have Been Awful
jdiis - 2011-05-29 3:30 PM

My swimming has been awful.  I feel weak, slower than I have been and out of breath.  I'm doing mostly open water, now without a wetsuit.  I'm not sure exactly how far the distance is, guessing about 150 yards by using GPS along shoreline.  This morning I went up and back (about 300 yd) rested for about 1 min and then repeated that.  Then, after resting another 90 sec or so, went up once (150 yd) and decided that I was done.  I did try 25 strokes slow and 25 strokes fast today.  I seemed to need to alternate between freestyle, side stroke and a little back stroke just to finish the 150 yard lengths without completely stopping.

On a positive note, my sighting is getting better.  I correct my crooked swimming sooner.

I know this isn't much to go on, but I feel like I'm regressing and I don't know what to do about it.  Thoughts anyone?

Put the wetsuit back on... Or keep swimming till you improve. For us (swimmers with poor form) wetsuit is a blessing on a race day, but if you always swim in it - your form will deteriorate even more...

2011-05-29 7:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
dangremond - 2011-05-29 3:19 PM

Had one of those workouts you want to forget this afternoon.  This was my last long run before my half marathon next week.  I planned on running 10 miles nice and easy (shooting for 9:00/mile pace).  I planned on getting up early but my beautiful wife convinced me to stay up late and watch the Afleck movie, The Town, with her (we gave it 7.5 stars out of 10 - good movie).

Anyway, decided to workout midday when my youngest napped.  So had lunch of leftover chinese (Moo Shu Pork and Fried Rice).  About 1/2 hour later began my workout.  Between the heat/humidity, heavy lunch and I think too much nutrition (GU about 15 minutes before start, gatorade throughout and one GU at 3 miles and one at 6 miles (as I'm writing this I am shaking my head saying to myself what was I thinking) my stomach was seriously off starting around 4.5 miles.  

The run was up hill from 4 miles through 8 miles and I ended up walking alot to keep the HR in zone 3 which was higher than I wanted.  I felt miserable from the midpoint to the end.  Ended up with avg hr of about 162 and avg pace of 9:50/mile.

Very disappointing run one week out from my race.

No sweat Mitch, a bad day is just that. Don't dwell on it or overanalyze it, progress should be measured in long terms. I also made that mistake a few times (running on a full stomach) and it's always a bad idea.
2011-05-29 7:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Swims Have Been Awful
markz - 2011-05-29 3:55 PM
jdiis - 2011-05-29 3:30 PM

My swimming has been awful.  I feel weak, slower than I have been and out of breath.  I'm doing mostly open water, now without a wetsuit.  I'm not sure exactly how far the distance is, guessing about 150 yards by using GPS along shoreline.  This morning I went up and back (about 300 yd) rested for about 1 min and then repeated that.  Then, after resting another 90 sec or so, went up once (150 yd) and decided that I was done.  I did try 25 strokes slow and 25 strokes fast today.  I seemed to need to alternate between freestyle, side stroke and a little back stroke just to finish the 150 yard lengths without completely stopping.

On a positive note, my sighting is getting better.  I correct my crooked swimming sooner.

I know this isn't much to go on, but I feel like I'm regressing and I don't know what to do about it.  Thoughts anyone?

Put the wetsuit back on... Or keep swimming till you improve. For us (swimmers with poor form) wetsuit is a blessing on a race day, but if you always swim in it - your form will deteriorate even more...

Mark is absolutely right. You should not swim with a wetsuit unless it is really cold or you're racing. Keep in mind that ALL the summer races in Texas are not wetsuit legal (Metroplex is not).Same as I told Mitch, a bad day is just that. One week before Ironman I had to walk the last ten minutes of a forty minute run. Can you imagine if I took that seriously?
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