Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed (Page 22)

2015-06-06 7:34 AM

in reply to: 0

Veteran

1016

Deep South, Georgia

Subject: RE: Open Water swimming problem. Please help!!!!

Originally posted by rjchilds8

Originally posted by Dominion

Anyone else feel this way? Thoughts?

For me, there were two aspects to it with my first triathlon. The first was what I mentioned before, the washing machine effect of being around so many swinging arms and kicking legs and bubbles causing stress and extremely limited vision. The second part for me was the fear of drowning. Very early on in my swim training when I was first learning to swim for distance I convinced myself that I could push my limits because if I was ever in trouble I could just simply reach out and grab the lane marker. In that environment, safety was just an arm's length away. That isn't the case in the triathlons. Yes, I know there are volunteers there for safety, but they have more people to keep an eye on than just me. As much as I have been able to swim up to 1.2 miles in the pool, I still have that fear in the back of my head that I could drown. I am strongly considering a personal swim safety device like the Swim It. I hope to never need it, but maybe knowing I have it on would help me relax?

I think that fear plays into what I am talking about. The fear of actually drowning takes it to an extreme case, but there you are out there with no wall, no lane ropes, deep water, and the end is most likely not within your sight range. There is no "reset" button waiting at the end of 25 yards.

Regarding the mass start issues, You have a great idea to practice them if you can get enough people together. I really think it is something you can become acclimated to, and therefor ease the stress it brings. I think a rough, physical start actually helps me settle in quicker. I understand this is not the case for everyone, and it probably wasn't for me either the first few of them I had (don't remember). But if the competition is fierce right from the start, I think it puts me in "that" mindset right from the beginning. Yes, a hard start will leave me winded, but I seem to have less trouble settling into a breathing pattern and having a good swim after the traffic lessens a little. Maybe the harder initial effort takes up so much of your focus that you don't have time for the insecurities or doubts that open water swimming may bring. I'd compare it to running. If I do a slow to moderate treadmill run, I'm often bored out of my mind. If I do a hard run the miles fly by. The effort and discomfort displaces the boredom. Maybe the same dynamic is at play during a fast, rough swim start. Just my thoughts and personal experience, may be totally different (and probably is) for each individual.

Edited by Dominion 2015-06-06 7:35 AM

nrpoulin

2015-06-06 1:41 PM

in reply to: #5075698

595

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

I don't have much open water swim experience, just it the tri's I did last year. I think the fatigue of the start where you are bumping into people, shortening your stroke, and sighting more frequently got me the first race. Always remember you can rollover and backstroke, of breaststroke to catch your breath and your bearings. I usually give the field a 30 sec head start on the swim.

Inherently I know I have never swam, biked, or run myself to the point where I couldn't go another 50 yards, or mile (bike or run). When you get that next 50 or Mile done I often feel like I can push another another as long as i think about it in small pieces. I certainly agree with Chris breaking a daunting task into a manageable fraction is an excellent mind trick. For my races I just focus on the next bouey.

90% of all endurance sports is mental, the rest is preparation (modified from my XC coach in high school)

2015-06-07 7:14 AM

in reply to: burner2

Veteran

604

Cleburne, Texas

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

Originally posted by burner2

Originally posted by HelmoAlkou

HEY! I remembered an article I read a while back about OWS and using a GPS. The lady said she put her watch under her swim cap on the back of her head. She got great numbers every time!

I tried that tonight. I attached my GPS watch to my goggle band so it stayed on the top of my head. It recorded a distance of only 0.36 miles in a half hour, which put me at almost six minutes per 100 yards. I know that ain't right! Even on my slowest day in the pool, my worst time is maybe 3:20/100 yards, while my average is probably about 3:05. So, evidently, my watch is pretty much useless in the water. I know there are some (more expensive!) watches that WILL work, and maybe next year I'll fork over the bucks for one of those. For now, I'll just divide my swim time by 2:30, which is a little slower than my swim race pace, to estimate my distance.

LOL, right!

In my OWS last week my "expensive" Garmin 910XT had me swimming a 1:13/100y. I ain't that fast and especially not for the 1200 +/- yards it recorded! With the arm/watch constantly going underwater I was hoping "under the cap" would help. Oh well. Thanks for reporting back!!

2015-06-07 9:02 AM

in reply to: Dominion

Veteran

604

Cleburne, Texas

Subject: RE: Open Water swimming problem. Please help!!!!

Originally posted by Dominion

Originally posted by rjchilds8

Originally posted by Dominion

Anyone else feel this way? Thoughts?

For me, there were two aspects to it with my first triathlon. ... Maybe the same dynamic is at play during a fast, rough swim start. Just my thoughts and personal experience, may be totally different (and probably is) for each individual.

I have to admit that I still get butterfly's when I'm doing an OWS. Everything mentioned is defiantly major factors (if not THE major factors) and can be a huge mountain to get over in triathlon. My little sitter would not water ski growing up, or still today, because she couldn't see what was in the water with her. Yet she would pool swim all day long.

I've spent my life in the water:

I was water skiing at the age of 7. Both my parents were teachers so we lived at the river all summer.

Competitive swimming off and on from 10 to 35 years old. We would swim one mile across the lake and one mile back with my friends dad beside us in a small fishing boat just for kicks. We played games AFTER swim workouts, always in the deep end, that built endurance. These were also played in the river, lake, and anytime we were in the water.

I'm a PADI certified Advanced Open Water Driver (SCUBA) and used to log 20-30 dives a year. Mostly in Texas lakes, mind you, where sometimes you can only see your hand in front of your face and best case is around 10-15 foot visibility. Many night dives where the only light you had was a glow stick and the locate where your flash light hit a target.

My wife and I do multiday canoe trips every year. We own our own kayaks and get out as much as possible.

I go to no-wake lakes in our area, put on a bright swim cap, and swim. Alone. I leave notice at the ranger station and I'm required to text my wife when I start and the minute I get out. I carry a knife in case I get tangled up in fishing line. I wear an ankle band with emergency info so they'll know who to call if my body is found.

Now, I'm NOT saying this to bore you or brag.

Again: "I have to admit that I still get butterfly's when I'm doing an OWS."

You guys and gals who are out there swimming with limited backgrounds have my utmost respect!! It is unnerving and scary! I can't imagine getting started later in life when you know what the dangers are. I think (know) we were just young and stupid!!

Getting in an OWS swim group has got to be the ideal training tool and most like the race atmosphere. Swim close to each other and even do some bumping and pushing. There's really no way to train for the washing machine effect except to do it. Your form, sighting, pulling, kicking, all of it is subject to change after the gun goes off until you settle down. I can sight once every 8-10 strokes when swimming alone and stay right on target yet the first 300-500 yards of a race has to be every 4 strokes. The longer your head is up the longer and deeper your backside is sinking into the water. This is a huge drag and kills your momentum. I work on sighting mechanics in the pool with quick head lifts to focus on a target. And try to keep you body position in the water even if you need to slow down and regroup.

We've all had to stop and catch our breath or figure out where we are before. If you choose to change to the breaststroke look around you first. It's a much slower stroke so people will catch up to you fast and their heads are down. There's nothing like being on the receiving end of a whip (frog) kick.

Just me 2 cents...

2015-06-07 10:15 PM

in reply to: Dominion

Veteran

1016

Deep South, Georgia

Subject: Race Report

The Tybee Island Sprint triathlon is in the books.

You can read the full race report at my link below.

It's a much better read than the last one. I put more effort into the race and into my report.

2015-06-08 7:57 AM

in reply to: Dominion

541

North Grafton, Massachusetts

Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by Dominion

The Tybee Island Sprint triathlon is in the books.

You can read the full race report at my link below.

It's a much better read than the last one. I put more effort into the race and into my report.

Congrats on another podium, Chris! It must have been a bit of a shock to have them increase the swim distance so much. But if that plays to one of your strengths, then I guess it was a welcome shock.

Did you ever talk to your closest competitor (Brian Orr) to see what happened to him on the run? Just wondering if it was the case that he overdid it on the bike or if there is some other lesson to be learned.

scottjjmtri99

2015-06-08 8:19 AM

in reply to: Dominion

New user

178

Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by Dominion

The Tybee Island Sprint triathlon is in the books.

You can read the full race report at my link below.

It's a much better read than the last one. I put more effort into the race and into my report.

Congrats and great race Chris!

2015-06-08 9:03 AM

in reply to: rjchilds8

Veteran

1016

Deep South, Georgia

Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by rjchilds8

Originally posted by Dominion

The Tybee Island Sprint triathlon is in the books.

You can read the full race report at my link below.

It's a much better read than the last one. I put more effort into the race and into my report.

Congrats on another podium, Chris! It must have been a bit of a shock to have them increase the swim distance so much. But if that plays to one of your strengths, then I guess it was a welcome shock.

No, I couldn't find him, but I did talk to the guy that went over the rocks! He said it was a wild ride. He said he got into those little rumble strips that line the road. right before the turn and lost control. So that's a lesson...watch out for those little rumble strips, they will jar the hell out of you!

2015-06-08 9:31 AM

in reply to: Dominion

Veteran

604

Cleburne, Texas

Subject: RE: Race Report

Originally posted by Dominion

The Tybee Island Sprint triathlon is in the books.

You can read the full race report at my link below.

It's a much better read than the last one. I put more effort into the race and into my report.

Congrats, Chris! Great race and report. I love a beach start!!

scottjjmtri99

2015-06-08 12:58 PM

in reply to: Dominion

New user

178

Subject: RE: Open Water swimming problem. Please help!!!!

Originally posted by Dominion

During my swim this morning, I got to thinking more about the open water discussion and what causes people to have issues with relaxing and breathing that they don't normally have while pool swimming. The difference of not being able to see the bottom was discussed and I think that is a part of the issue. But I got to thinking that psychologically we use the approaching wall as a crutch. We know it's there, we know that it's the "reset button" to the next lap. We know we really only have to swim that next 25 yards or meters. That wall is how we measure our swim. It breaks it down into manageable sections and we know exactly how far we have gone and how far we have left to go before a break. We don't have that in open water. I think that plays a role somewhere in our psyche, especially for the less experienced swimmers.

Anyone else feel this way? Thoughts?

I think you're on to something with this Chris. I've always been comfortable in the water regardless of whether it's a pool, pond, lake. I do know that when I swim in open water it's a different experience vs the pool. I do tend to tell myself to take it one stroke at a time and you'll do just fine. What does seem to play mind tricks on me is when I get to race event and see where the buoys are located. If I get there and my mind says "oh, that doesn't look too far to swim" I'm good to go. But, If I get there and it says "oh no, they're far apart! I have to swim that far?" I'm in trouble lol. So far the only race that gives me issues with that is Caseville which happens to be next month. I'm working on getting a lot of OWS's in between now and then so that I'm much more confident going into that one then I was last year.

Scott

2015-06-08 3:15 PM

in reply to: scottjjmtri99

541

North Grafton, Massachusetts

Subject: That can't be right

So I was looking into doing a sprint tri local to me in the next couple weeks. The event page says that it has a 1/2 mile swim. I like the idea of doing 1/2 mile since it will help bridge the gap from the sprints I did last year (0.34 and 0.25 miles) to the Oly I plan to do in August (0.93 miles). I went to the results page from last year's event and I just can't believe that it is truly a half mile swim.

The top 2 finishers in the swim last year had times of 8:16 an 8:20. That can't be right! I understand it's a shorter race so you can push yourself harder, but that doesn't seem right. At that pace, the top finisher would complete a half Ironman swim in 19:50! I checked some recent 70.3 events and the best time I could find was Andy Potts (no surprise) in Tennessee with a time of 21:59. There's no way some local Joe Schmoe is over 2 minutes faster than Andy Potts' pace! I mean, I'm just guessing that these pros don't really pace themselves for a 70.3 and are probably pushing pretty hard. I did also look up a recent ITU event. It didn't say the length of the swim, just that it was an Olympic distance event. The first swimmer out of the water was Allistair Brownlee at 8:44, so I just sort of guessed it was a half mile. Sorry, Joe Schmoe, you ain't faster than Allistair Brownlee.

I'll most likely still sign up for this event, but I can't put any faith in the swim distance. My finishing time for the swim will be a good indicator of how accurate or not that distance is. If I suddenly turn in a pro level performance, you know something ain't right!

2015-06-09 9:29 AM

in reply to: rjchilds8

Veteran

1016

Deep South, Georgia

Subject: RE: That can't be right

Triathlon swim distances are notoriously wrong. Most around here seem to go long though. (see my last 2) Or it could be a situation where the swim was shortened due to conditions last year.

burner2

2015-06-09 3:48 PM

in reply to: HelmoAlkou

212

Pacific Northwest, Washington

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

Originally posted by HelmoAlkou

In my OWS last week my "expensive" Garmin 910XT had me swimming a 1:13/100y.

That watch is supposed to work in water! That's the one I was thinking of upgrading to next year. If it won't track well in water, then there's no point. Does anyone else have experience with a GPS watch that works for OWS? I don't care about pool swims because I know how big the pool is and can count laps, but having something for lake swimming would be nice.

2015-06-09 9:04 PM

in reply to: burner2

Veteran

604

Cleburne, Texas

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

Originally posted by burner2

Originally posted by HelmoAlkou

In my OWS last week my "expensive" Garmin 910XT had me swimming a 1:13/100y.

This 910XT is dead on and great in the pool for workouts! This might be the first OWS I've taken it on. I need to check the manual and make sure I've got it set up right but it's really a no brainer. For what it does in the pool it's still worth the money, imho.

nrpoulin

2015-06-09 10:32 PM

in reply to: HelmoAlkou

595	Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed Will see what mine says this weekend. I have a tomtom. GPS is consistent on runs and bikes. My Race Log

scottjjmtri99

2015-06-10 6:37 AM

in reply to: nrpoulin

New user

178

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

Originally posted by nrpoulin

Will see what mine says this weekend. I have a tomtom. GPS is consistent on runs and bikes.

I used my garmin in the OWS with the Tri team last night it had me going 1:30s which is rather fast for me. My thoughts on this are that 1. I'm using a wetsuit, 2. I'm not stopping every 25 yards to turn around and getting back up to speed again. Also, the swim course may have been only 1000 yards if I could swim a straight line, but I zig and zag alot and probably did add a couple extra 100 yards to my swim last night. Garmin has come along way with their swim gps units. Are they 100% accurate? I don't think so. Do they get ya darn close? Yes I believe so.

(IMG_2505.PNG)

Attachments
----------------
IMG_2505.PNG (127KB - 7 downloads)

2015-06-10 11:44 AM

in reply to: HelmoAlkou

541

North Grafton, Massachusetts

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

Originally posted by HelmoAlkou

>In my OWS last week my "expensive" Garmin 910XT had me swimming a 1:13/100y. I ain't that fast and especially not for the 1200 +/- yards it recorded! With the arm/watch constantly going underwater I was hoping "under the cap" would help. Oh well. Thanks for reporting back!!

I don't really have any chances to practice open water swims where I am, so I always train in the pool. Once in a while I will wear my Garmin fenix 2, but only once in a while. The SportCount lap counter that I have really provides me with just about all the information I really need. I will say this much about my GPS watch. I wear it on my treadmill so I can get the feedback on my heart rate. When I look at my data after the run, it shows me all over the neighborhood even though I'm running in place. Maybe from swinging my arms when I'm running such that it can't read quick movements? I don't know, but it's a little crazy (see attached "map" of my run). I'm wondering if it's the same thing with the swimming.

For me, I'll still wear my GPS watch during my event so I can record my time, but I will totally ignore the distance. I like to record my data, but I usually use software like MapMyRun or MapMyRide to check the distance of my workout. For bike and run workouts it is usually pretty accurate. Apparently not so much with the swim.

(GPS_treadmill_run.JPG)

Attachments
----------------
GPS_treadmill_run.JPG (30KB - 9 downloads)

2015-06-11 10:02 AM

in reply to: rjchilds8

Veteran

604

Cleburne, Texas

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

Originally posted by rjchilds8

Originally posted by HelmoAlkou

I don't really have any chances to practice open water swims where I am, so I always train in the pool. Once in a while I will wear my Garmin fenix 2, but only once in a while. The SportCount lap counter that I have really provides me with just about all the information I really need. I will say this much about my GPS watch. I wear it on my treadmill so I can get the feedback on my heart rate. When I look at my data after the run, it shows me all over the neighborhood even though I'm running in place. Maybe from swinging my arms when I'm running such that it can't read quick movements? I don't know, but it's a little crazy (see attached "map" of my run). I'm wondering if it's the same thing with the swimming. For me, I'll still wear my GPS watch during my event so I can record my time, but I will totally ignore the distance. I like to record my data, but I usually use software like MapMyRun or MapMyRide to check the distance of my workout. For bike and run workouts it is usually pretty accurate. Apparently not so much with the swim.

Okay! Are you drinking before your runs??

I try to reset my Garmin about once a month and clear out old data workouts. My last Forerunner and this new one seem to operate much better afterwards. Even when locating satellites. When I'm on the treadmill I select "Inside" so the GPS won't work and I still have elevation changes in my data, lol.

2015-06-11 10:48 AM

in reply to: HelmoAlkou

Veteran

604

Cleburne, Texas

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

I got my stitches out yesterday and headed straight for the pool! I haven't swam in eight days! The A/C was out and it was miserably hot and humid in the pool area. If you can imagine it was 98*F with 70% humidity outside. I decided to back off my scheduled workout considerably during the warmup. I just didn't feel as strong, started to tire early, and really didn't want to risk injury.

I put my bike in the shop for a full clean up/lube/overhaul as well as change my cassette from a 12/25 to a 12/27. There's lots of big hills where I'm going! So, I'm Jonesin to get my bike back!!! I had a ride schedule for today so I'm going replace it with a run. That seems to workout good for this week, four runs instead of four bike workouts.

With summer finally here, approaching race day, and finally off work for a while, I'm doing my workouts between noon and 3 PM trying to acclimate to the heat. Lots of water, nutrition, electrolyte replacement, etc. I bought the new version of Pearl Izumi Sun Sleeves. 50 SPF, very lightweight, and you can wet them for improved performance. I'll use them today on the run to test them out. Saturday will be my last big workout day before I start tapering. Although I might have to move it to Friday due to real life issues. Starting to get a little antsy!

2015-06-11 2:48 PM

in reply to: HelmoAlkou

541

North Grafton, Massachusetts

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

Originally posted by HelmoAlkou
>

Okay! Are you drinking before your runs??

Hey, don't be giving away my training secrets! LOL

I think my fenix 2 has an option for an "indoor" workout. I guess I should consider trying that instead of "run". I thought about getting a foot pod for when I run on the treadmill, but they're something like $70! In contrast, the old Nike+ watch I had used a foot pod and it was only around $20. Not sure why Garmin has theirs priced so high. You'd figure they already got their pound of flesh when I bought a $500 watch!

2015-06-11 5:32 PM

in reply to: #5120813

Veteran

604

Cleburne, Texas

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

I have a foot pod and like it for keeping an eye on my cadence but it never matches the pace/distance of the treadmill. The foot pod is usually about 0:30 m/m pace faster but it depends on my pace.

I'll have to down a few beers before my next run!

2015-06-11 8:09 PM

in reply to: HelmoAlkou

541

North Grafton, Massachusetts

Subject: RE: Dominion's Sprint/Oly/70.3 Group--Closed

Originally posted by HelmoAlkou

I have a foot pod and like it for keeping an eye on my cadence but it never matches the pace/distance of the treadmill. The foot pod is usually about 0:30 m/m pace faster but it depends on my pace.

I'll have to down a few beers before my next run!

The foot pod on my Nike+ watch was pretty accurate. The nice thing about it was that you could calibrate it. If I did a run and the distance was off, I could adjust it. After calibrating a number of times I got it to where it was pretty darn accurate. But I mostly only use the watches for overall time and now I can monitor my HR with the Garmin.

2015-06-11 8:09 PM

in reply to: rjchilds8

541

North Grafton, Massachusetts

Subject: Swim practice?

Does this count? How's my form? LOL

(11392988_10152803698372447_443710629915819016_n.jpg)

Attachments
----------------
11392988_10152803698372447_443710629915819016_n.jpg (126KB - 6 downloads)

burner2

2015-06-12 12:48 AM

in reply to: rjchilds8

212

Pacific Northwest, Washington

Subject: I qualified for Nationals!

I got an email from USAT this morning that based on my Troika Tri results a few weeks back I qualified for the 2015 USA Triathlon Age Group National Championships. I'm not going to go because it's too far to drive (3,500 miles round trip) and too expensive to fly, pay for hotel, rent a car, ship my bike, etc. Still, it's an honor to have qualified and sure made my day! USAT has me first in my age group for that race, although I competed in the Athena division.

I have a race this weekend. I've been really concerned about it because it's been triple digits there all week, but the weather report shows it cooling down to 80 degrees for the weekend. I've been practicing using my water bottle on my bike, so that's not an issue anymore. Finding a handlebar mount water bottle holder helped! I also picked up a "hands free" water bottle to carry on my run. It's not really hands free, but I used it on a test run earlier this week in 90-degree weather, and it worked out. It's smaller and easier to carry than a regular water bottle. I know heat was a factor in the two tri's where I had poor performances last year, so I'm trying to figure out ways to handle it better.

I'm also a little anxious about this race because I used to live in the town where it's held and a lot of people know me there. It's one thing to race some place where no one knows you. If you bonk, no big deal; you can just slink off. But when you race where you're known and photos could end up on Facebook...Ha ha ha! Just kidding! No one I know would actually do that. I hope! But also, the lake is kind of nasty. In all the years I lived there, I wouldn't even let my dog swim in it. And now I'm going to put my face in it. I guess that just shows I'm dedicated, right?

Anyone else racing this weekend?