BamaDC's Mentor Group v3.0 - CLOSED (Page 23)

Question for the swim gurus...


My swim coach is pushing other strokes that free style pretty hard right now.  We've been doing some sets of backstroke and some (very pathetic) sets of IM.  Her reasoning is that it's the off season so doing different strokes is a good idea.  Is this true?  Is there benefit to learning breast stroke and fly?  Obviously knocking out laps of fly is impressive (and I'm far from being able to do this) but it doesn't seem useful to Tri and OWS.  Thoughts?

Don't mind the backstroke and fly - they do help a bit by working some different muscles.  Backstroke really works the kick and your back (duh).  Fly is a core crusher.  However, I see absolutely no value in breaststroke.  Bobby McGee, run trainer extraordinaire, is on record saying the breaststroke is bad on the knees for runners.  I agree with him. 

Skip the breast, do a smattering of the other two.  I'd still do 75%+ freestyle, though, on average.

I've been working with this same coach off and on for about a year (few private lessons and a couple 6-8 group classes when the gym offers them).  She tried to teach me breast stroke last year and it bothered my knee so I never did it.  It bothered my knee a little again when two weeks ago when she first stated having us mix in other strokes.  She thinks that I'm not doing the kick right and if we can fix that I'll be alright.  I get what you're saying about backstroke and fly but I don't see what breast stroke is going to do for me.  I have no competitive swim background and only took up swimming because I wanted to do a tri.  In other words, all I want to do is tri and OWS, which to me means freestyle.  That combined with the fact that it only bothers the knee I've had problems with since college makes me think I should just cut out breaststoke all together.

Why do I always seem to start races directly behind the guy who thinks breastroking the entire race is a good idea?

Agree 100%. I'll willingly mix in the backstroke and occasionally fly, but I'm not a fan of the breaststroke. It's the kick that does affect my knee and usually leaves me sore, so I either modify my kick, or don't kick.

But the others won't hurt. Now when the season starts ramping up, you'll probably go 90-95% free.

It'll be my first marathon. Based on McMillan I should be finishing in the 4:20-4:30 range. Going sub 4 for a first would be nice though . I have 7months.

What kind of times are you putting up for a hard 100 right now? 

BTW, it is your money and your desires.  I do think that you can get something out of back and fly, but if you want free only tell her.  As far as breast, just tell her it hurts an old knee injury and that it is off the table.  There is *no* advantage to breast in a tri.  To be honest if I was only swimming for tri and wanted a "backup" stroke I'd choose backstroke.  There you can go pretty easy and your head is out of the water to catch a breath if you need it.



We plan them that way for you. ;-)

I've been flamed on the main board before for this opinion, but breaststroke is dangerous.  I've never gone over anyone, but if need be I will go straight over a breaststoker.  The safest place to pass one of those folks is right over the top.  Going around is asking for a karate kick to the jaw.

Not really sure.   Are talking about an all out 100 or something that I can do sets of?  She timed everyone in the class last week for 100yds but we were doing at total of 300yds so I don't know exactly where she timed me in that set.  Anyways, the only time I've got is 1:38/100yds.

If you were at 2min/100 I'd say nothing but freestyle, but where you are (quite good, BTW) I still think that some amount (20%) of another stroke or two can't hurt anything, particularly months out from a tri.  Back and fly do work some muscles quite well.  Fly is harder to get the technique right, for sure, though.

I used to be a backstroker and I had massive triceps.  I miss them.

Oh, and just in case anyone forgets, breaststroke is the stroke of the devil.  There, I said it.

I love it when someone asks to share a lane at the pool, then proceeds to breastroke 25, rest on the wall for 2 minutes, breastroke another 25, rest for 2 minutes. WTF?

I have no idea how long I can hold that pace.  It's kind of like saying I can run a 7:00/mile.  Sure, I can do that about once...

I do all of my running based on pace.  Should I do something similar for swimming?  If so, how do I figure out what my pace for different sets should be?  Should I swim a long piece (say 1000 yds) and use my average pace or should I do trail-and-error (ie try to do 5x100 at 1:45, if I can do it at 1:40 next time)?

You can't share a lane doing breast or fly.  Next time some d*ckhead pulls that remind them that he/she isn't sharing nice. 

You can with back if they/you can hold a line and no one minds if someone gets grabbed/goosed every once in a while.



I've done it by trial and error.  I don't have any real good advice here.

Edited by sand101 2011-02-25 7:50 PM

Swim 1000 at a decent pace. That will be your T-pace or cruise. Sort of like your comfortable run pace.

We can use it to help set your workout speeds.

But if you'd like, go out and try 5x100 @ 2:00 (send offs). Give yourself a good break and then try 5x100 @ 1:50. This will also help tell us what you can sustain.

I may try this tonight.  See what happens.

Also, numbers from last week:

 

Ran yesterday and experienced some strange HR issues.  My typical running HR is around 155 avg, can hit 175 on the top end during intervals or hills.  Yesterday I went out for a long easy run and my HR immediatly hit 165 and stayed there.  I felt heavy, tired, breathless at my normal long run speed.  I quit after 4.5 miles, but am wondering what could cause this? As you can see from below, I did have a really good week leading up to yesterdays run, but am now feeling discouraged.  Advice? thoughts?

Sounds like a fun workout.  I'll give that a try this week.




Not  a very good week for me.  I got of to a late start (ie missed my first run of the week) and then weekend plans got in the way of my last run.


Edited by cornfed 2011-02-28 11:13 AM

Quite possibly you were just tired and not well recovered for the long run. Could just be that as the case. I'm no expert, but that's highly likely.

It could be any number of things (sick, tired, dehydrated, etc). I wouldn't be too worried about it.  This happens to me every now and then. I always take it as my body telling my that what I thought was "easy" that isn't.  

If you look at my long runs for the last four weeks you'll see that they're all basically the same pace and my HR is right around 145 bpm.  You'll also notice that there is one (three weekends ago) that was a minute per mile slower and 10 BPM higher.  I felt absolutely miserable on that run and had to cut it short.  Not sure what was wrong but I was able to pick right back up a few days later with no problem.

FWIW, I don't train based on HR.  I like to train by pace and think using HR as a rough guide to help me gauge which end of the pace zone I should be in base on how I'm feeling.  I found this really useful over the summer when it was really hot and humid. 

Edited by cornfed 2011-02-28 11:28 AM

@Pilot & Cornfed...

Try to go with 1-2' RI after each set of 5. Also, you want to try to keep your times on each one as consistent as possible (some have said no more than a +/- 5second spread).

Also, over time, keep bringing the send offs down by :05 - :10 seconds until you cannot make the pace. It will get harder.

Our coach throws those in on occasion and there won't be much of a warmup b/c the first few allow for quite a bit of recovery to allow for the WU, but as you go, it really gets harder...

Enjoy it, and let us know how you do!

As stated, it can be a number of things.  The heat has really gotten me the last two weeks, but hydration, diet, etc. can all play a part.   

How do you adjust your paces for heat?  or do you? 

Last spring I started doing all my running based on vdot paces (a la Daniels Running Formula).  Only problem is he gives a specific value and not a range.  Friel and McMillan both give ranges so I've switched over to using them.   Normally I just run and let myself settle into whatever pace feels good that day.  As long as it's within the range I'm shooting for I don't worry about it.  If not, I'll try to pick it up or reign it in some (normally I find myself slacking off towards the end so I have to try and pick it up).

I try to back off to the upper/slower end of the pace zone and see if that brings my HR back to something reasonable.  Not sure if this is the best/right thing to do but I found that it was the only way to get through my longer runs last summer.  If I tried to tough it out and maintain pace then my HR would keep creeping up until it got out of control and I'd end up dragging my but (aka walking) home.

I've also found (and again this is all anecdotal based on my personal observations) this works pretty well with hills.  It's very hilly where I live and when I first started training by pace I would try to maintain pace on the hills.  This was really kicking my a$$ and my HR would go through the roof but I was afraid if I slowed down to what was "comfortable" I wouldn't be getting a good enough workout.  I started watching my HR when I'd hit a hill and (on most days) am able to find a nice balance between maintaining speed and not letting my HR skyrocket.  When I'm able to balance the two (pace and HR) going up I hill I feel like I'm able to return to pace when I get to the top and my HR will come back down.


Edited by cornfed 2011-02-28 4:04 PM

Swim update:  I decided today was a sprints day.  I guess I was feeling masochistic.  After a great start to the session (1:11 100 and 2:35 200 in the drag suit - 2:35 is my best in quite a while) I hit 5 x 50 sprint, 50 recover at the end.  Started at :31 and faded to :33 at the end.  In a fast suit those times put me solidly down under :30, like :27.  That ain't half bad.  Heck, I could probably go to a master's meet and not completely embarrass myself.

On to thrashing myself on the trainer!

Those are awesome times......I'm dreaming of what it would be like to swim that fast. 

WOW. Awesome Sands!

I was dying in our 50s sprint sets this morning. It was all I could do to keep :40/50yrds.

Very nice!