Fast Twitch Tri-FULL (Page 25)

Hi Samantha- My thoughts on the fist drill are to not worry about speed at all, but rather distance per stroke.  I like to think that the water is made of jello and I am planting my arm and pulling my body past it. 

I really feel for pulling with both my forearm and my bicep.  I think of my pull as an S shaped arc so I put my arm in and sweep out and back for the first 1/2 of the stroke- in that part I really feel my forearm then my arm sweeps back in under my belly (so my elbow is at ~90 degrees- for that part of the stroke I think about both my forearm and my bicep- If my stroke is too deep I get much less pull with my bicep- as it's not as thick as it is if I have it at ~90 degrees.  So for me if I'm getting a lot of pull from my bicep it's a signal that my arm is better positioned.  This could differ by person though.  Basically you are just trying to get a feel for the fact that your hands have a tiny surface area combined to your whole arms- so you should find a place where your full arm is powering you through the water.

I like doing either a 100 doing 25 drill, 25 swim, repeat.  So I can do the drill, think about how it impacted my stroke on the swim and try it again.  Or, I like breaking up longer sets doing the last 25 of every 100 as a drill.  Although- I focus more the first way.

Another drill I like for focusing on stroke power is catch up drill.  Start in a good streamline with hands out in front of you stacked.  Take a stroke with the bottom hand leaving the top had stationary in front of you until your bottom hand does a full underwater stroke and above water recovery landing on top of what was your top hand- then like a relay the new bottom hand goes.  This drill allows you to entirely focus on each pull through the water.  I also do this for distance per stroke (if kicking is distracting you- just do it with a pull buoy.)  I just adjust each arm to try and see how I can get the most distance from it.  I adjust a little and see if I go further or less far.  This is definitely a quality and not speed drill though.  It's really a good thinking one.

Good Luck!

Kate

I'd be curious what the measurements are - based on my wearing narrows in all of the Brooks I've bought before- but the regular width feeling good in the Pure Connects.  They do seem a little narrow across the board.

Yay for a good lesson!  I've taught people later in life (back in college and grad school) who picked it up with practice.  You're never too old to learn.

Did you try the thumb tip drag drill where you drag your thumbnail from your thigh all the way up to your arm pit and then finish your recovery?  It should over emphasize what your coach was telling you to work on.  A little awkward esp as you figure the rotation required to do it without swimming like a snake- but forces your elbow out first.

Good Luck!

Quick check-in!  I had a good week this week!  (Thanksgiving break helped with that.) Swam 3x, biked 3x, ran 4x!  Short and frequent is my current mantra as I work to build up to longer time/distance.  I'm trying to be aware of not doing too much too soon.  I also got in a few sessions of lifting weights.  Hooray!

This is the other drill I've been doing.  My other BT mentor group just a few days ago helped me discover a major flaw in my stroke.  When I was doing the pull, I was crossing the midline, bringing my arm all the way towards the center.  Perhaps it's mental or other factors involved (I don't think it is though), but it literally took seconds off my times when I was doing moderate to comfortably hard effort and not crossing the midline!  I was seriously amazed!  And I learned that thumb-along-your-side drill at the single masters swim I've attended, and now I've found it to be completely relevant!  (I was never big on doing drills, that is going to change!)

FYI, I received an email from DeSoto today for Cyber Monday, 20% off (code = CYBERMON).  I just bought some Forza bibbed tri shorts for $95 shipped.  My wife is going to kill me!

SAMANTHA -

Let's go for the hat trick!  Yoyu've got fist-swimming, and you've got the "zipper drill", and now how about "catch-up"?   If you've never done it, it's where you don't begin to pull with the left arm, say, until the right hand is extending out to where the left hand is patiently waiting.  And so on, and on, and on.  It's a good drill for working on balance and position, and it gives you the chance to really focus on what the pull arm is doing.  

Again, do these one length at a time, with no time or speed goals; it's all about form and technique!

I don't know if I mentioned this the other day, but when doing drills --- just do one at a time!  And i'll go even further and say that not only don't you NOT want to combine, say, fist and zipper together, but you probably don't even want to do them as part of the same swim session.  But if you must, start the workout with one drill-type, then fill the middle with plain old swimming, and then finsih with another drill-type. 

If I remember , I'll tell you a great cautionary tale about what can happen when one tries to do too mant swim corrections at the same time.   (That would be me, at NYC Tri '05.)

Glub, glub!

Relevant swim drills - I love it!  Many thanks.  I was trying more or less a homespun equivalent of the thumb drill - kind of a combo of nicking my ear with my thumb and a fingertip drill - so that one definitely makes sense for what I'm trying to do and I'll give it a go in the pool.  I'll happily incorporate the others, as well.

The stroke finally felt a bit more normal yesterday - took the kids (all three - at times in the same lane, at times thankfully in their own    ) and did a wu/mile/some 100s and a cool down.  I actually got through the middle of the swim and stopped thinking about my elbow coming up on EVERY stroke.  Much better.  Held 1:45/100 for the mile, which was good for me - so I suppose working on form doesn't HAVE to mean blowing up in the pool for a season.  More to do, for sure, but encouraging nonetheless.

Of course, my kids knew what I was trying to do, so they would occassionally pop up and yell, "Get your elbows up!"  Most helpful...  

Thanks again for the suggestions - I'll report back on how the drills feel and progress (just don't hold your breath, as progress can be quite s-l-o-w for some of us).

Matt

OK - another swim question for our resident fish(es), and this one is around drag and body rotation.

I had been thinking that I should rotate almost as much as possible with each stroke - getting my shoulders almost perpendicular to the pool bottom.  I admit that I'm not entirely sure WHY I was doing this - seem to remember something from one of the books/vids (TI or Taormino's perhaps?) saying something about this being better from a drag perspective (which makes me think TI more...).

Anyway, when I had the eval in the pool, coach said that some rotation is indeed good, but basically only that which comes from fully reaching, which amounts to signficantly less than 90 degrees.  He said that much rotation basically stops you dead in the water from INCREASED drag of the shoulder dropping fully into the flow and from energy going into rotating for its own sake (as opposed to the more modest rotation that at least I see when I keep my eyes on the bottom of the pool and just reach as far foward as I can - there is some rotation there from just the shoulder extension, and some from having engaged my core on the last pull/recovering from that pull at the same time as the reach on the other side).

I thought, though, that this would lead to a flatter profile in the water - for which I definitely recall Taormino crticizing Johhny Weismuller... sort of (he was FAST, after all, as she points out - kind of implying that the high elbow is more important than drag).

So, what's one to do here?  Is the low-drag profile going 90 degrees to 90 degrees (180 each stroke pair), or more like 90-ish (45 or so - not sure exactly - each way)?

I'm not trying to kick off a TI vs. high-elbow debate here - at all!  Just which of these two particular approaches to rotation makes more sense.

Swimming was SOOOO much easier when I only used it to get back to shore after the boat sank (and there are several people in my family capable of making that a much needed skill...)!

Thoughts, suggestions, comments appreciated, as ever.

Matt

I'm with you, mostly. It's not that I don't like swimming -- I really do -- it's just that it's not convenient, it's expensive on a per-workout basis, and takes a lot more planning. I prefer to do open water, actually, but lakes don't get swimmable until late May. I have NO problem doing OWS alone, though, so that's not an issue. But I really only do what I feel is necessary to get through the events in decent shape (and that definition is going to be different for each person). A month previous is pretty good for me, unless it's a long event that needs a good endurance build-up (I did a 5K OWS a couple years ago).

SAMANTHA and MATT.......and others? -

The ante has been upped with the recent swim talk here, and with regards to (a) "zipper" drills and (b) how much body roll is good and/or too much, I just have a quick cautionary tale:

A bunch of years ago I saw a video of an Olympian who had beautiful form -- including a very high-and-close-to-the-body arm recovery.  I watched this a few times and, in my infinite wisdom, decided that it was worth trying myself.  The next day, on an OWS, I tried to emulate him and the gorgeous recovery phase of his stroke and -- literally -- within eight strokes my left shoulder started to hurt.  I swam for about ten more minutes, almost out of necessity having to abandon the desired real-high-elbow, and then wisely called the session off.

Short climax:  shoulder impingement.  Longer denouement:  about three months of physio before swimming again.

My problem was that not only do I not have great (or even very good) shoulder flexibility, but I made matters worse by trying to execute that high recovery without sufficient body roll.  Now, i had been doing this stuff long enough to probably know better, but I just got the blinders on and wanted to look jsut like Mr. Olympian -- and paid dearly for it.

The point here is that if you are going to try zipper drills and high elbows on the recovery, make sure you are not swimming flat (or as Total Immersion might say, like a barge)  --- at least incorporate some degree of body roll so that your shoulder is not compromised.  The shoulder is an incredibly convoluted structure and the acromium (sp?) arch can easily press up against a nerve a wreak all sorts of havoc.  That is what happened to me -- I got the shoulder twisted enough in the process of that drill to get the nerve impinged, with repetitive movement exacerbating the problem.  Just a few minutes of this -------> a few months without swimming (and having difficulty putting on shirts that didn't have buttons or a zipper).

So!  if you try the zipper drill -- GOOD!  It's a good one!  But just make sure you have some body roll while doing it!

MATT -

As a fllow-up to the one above, and in rsponse to your query about rotation (and possible over-rotation)-- GOOD QUESTION!!!

I suspect you're doing it for the same reason I spent a lot of time Back When doing it --- being immersed in Total Immersion.  There were the drills and the requisite work to find your "sweet spot"...........and then once that was (kind of) established, there were the various ("skating"?) drills that sprung out of being in the sweet spot.  And then there were the boat comparisons, with sleek crafts being compared to plodding barges.  So, in the spirit of "if some is good, more is better", it just seemed to make sense that everything should be in that over-exaggerated position of basically being on your side, each and every stroke.

It took me a looooooong time (slow learner, don't you know) to realize that that didn't work for me, that I didn't have the core strength required to whip that body of mine from shoulder to shoulder to shoulder to shoulder with any efficiency at all.

So, I am in the same spot as that of your coach, and I think you're there as well.  Your summation of what you think you should be doing -- and what I think I should be doing! -- is right there in your second paragraph.  But you seem to be hung-up on having a flat profile (and you're right, S.T. has commented on that), and I'm guessing that your own profile isn't as flat as you might fear.  Reaching and extending will help, especially if that going-forward with the one arm is balanced closely with the pull going back.  And here's where I think the coveted HIGH ELBOW ON THE PULL helps, as that requires (for me) slightly more roll so as to get it past my torso/hips.  You might want to try swimming a length with an exaggerated low elbow (as in virtually no elbow bend at all) and see how little you vcan get away with in terms of body roll ----- and then try a length with a high elbow, especially with a straight line form elbow to fingertips.  I cannot do the latter without rolling a reasonable degree, and when I'm on my game (seldom, seldom, seldom..........) I can activate that roll with my core.  Feels good!  Seems effective!   Here today....and gone for a few weeks!!!

ANYHOW, I'd say 90-to-90 is not at all desirable, except maybe for someone who is a tiny, tight package, or soemone who has a prodigiously powerful core.  Either way --- it ain't me, babe.  And I can't tell you what I find optimal, although the self-depracating response would be that for me, nothing I do in the watwer is truly optimal.

SO THIS IS WHERE WE NEED SUPERKATE!!!!!!!!!

(And I don't mean to blow this one off, as it's a superb topic.  I just want to defer it to someone who has solid swim chops.)

Which would also be "HOOSIERMAN" DOUG!!!!!!

GREG -

I like the question, and I really like to know you're still around!

I wasn't sure how to take your question as to whether it would be just two workouts each week taken from a choice of S/B/R, or whether it was two of each discipline, each week.  Samantha's answer to you assumed the latter.........so maybe I should as well!

But until you get me set straight on this, I'll just say that even within the parameters of a long workout, you can fit in some fine work at developing some of your faster-twitch capabilities.  That was one of the goals of the thread, started about three weeks ago now -- and which I need to bring some training-specific closure to!! -- addressing cadence. 

At its simplest, I think it is easy and painless to increase foot speed while running, and in a seemingly straightforward long run this can be done several times over the course of, say, an hour-long effort.  For me, it was just such efforts --- on any given long run, do a km at something closely to 90 footfalls/minute, or even that cadence for just a minute or two.  Anything was helpful in those days when i was working to get from low- to mid-80s up to 90, and because this cannot be done overnight (and particularly for a sustained period of running with fast feet), it was very satisfying to start off with small bites (baby steps, as it were) and be able to make that work.  I really think that's one of the more doable goals any of us have here, to get our footspeed up to a level that leads to faster run times for the shorter distances.

Increasing cadence can also work on long rides during the off-season, be they outdoors for those blessed with non-wintery temps, or indoors on a trainer.  And even if the workout's goal is, ostensibly, a long ride, there is no reason (and no advantage) to just doing it in one or two gearings.  (In fact, that is anathema to good cycling -- but it is all too common for so many riders to just stay in a few "no-brainer" gearings.)   Mix it up, then, with some fast efforts where you aren't just looking to spin like a dervish, but where the ~90 rpm is done against the most resistance you can handle at the chosen maximal cadence (but for now not pushing much beyond 90).

As to not getting injured -- oh, I hear you on that one!   Patti has just posted that she twanged her Achilles doing 800s, and that's a big reason why i no longer do "designated" speedwork.  It just so happens that it's my Achilles that will respond to those track-like efforts, so the safest route for me has been tempo runs and fartlek-type episodes, with the latter geared exclusively to foot speed (well, and sometimes also the emulation of "running pretty").

Finally -- and with non-injury still in mind -- foot speed has little to do with high back-kick and/or long strides.  In fact, except for the most gifted runners (and kids), neither long stride nor high kick will help with foot speed, and will actually serve to reduce it -- much as having a long, easy stroke in swimming is counterproductive to having a high stroke rate.  (***BUT!  As opposed to running and cycling, a goal of swimming for many/most of us age-groupers is NOT to have a high stroke turnover, which most of us cannot accomplish and still swim efficiently!***)

I hope some of that all helps, and let me know if your goal is 2x a week for each of S/B/R. 

PATTI -

I subjected myself to thsoe conditions back in the days/years I was new to triathlon, just because I felt it had to get it done.  It was often not much fun at all, and the workouts could degenerate to just time-tallyers.

Truth told, were I not retired and able to do many,many more "civil" swims that are during regular work hours, i would almost certainly not be doing much off-season swimming.  One, I have gotten to the point where I have plateaued in my swimming......so why bother?  Two, who needs the aggravation of over-crowded pools?  Three, I would try to have faith in the model of many good/great triathletes who essentially never swim in the off-season........and hope I can channel some of their no-swim success my way!

Your question crosses into that wide, grey territory of how to balance enjoyment with improvement.  A simple answer to you would be to don't do anything that makes you miserable, or even just plain-old grumpy.  Life is too short for that sort of nonsense, yes? 

But if improvement is a big goal, and if swimming is seen as a limiter, for you, and if you feel you can still improve at swimming with just a bit more time in the water........then it might be worth subjecting yourself to whenever you have the stomach for it.

It turns out that many people who consider themselves triathletes don't swim much, for any number of good reasons -- don't really like swimming, don't have a pool nearby, can't afford the cost of pool-swimming.  For these folks, they do what they can, and it would probably surprise you to know how many age-groupers swim less than 20 times a year, which includes OWS options.   (And the first two of the above reasons pertain to OWS -- many don't like it, many don't have a spot nearby.)

What do you think?

PATTI again -

AcK and ouch!

Mama said there'd be days like that..........and I've had enough of them to be msotly permanently "weaned" from both speedwork and true racing flats.  See my post at the top of this page to GREG, in which I mention a couple of running options that do not involve traditional track-style speedwork.  And while this didn't come up in that post, to do this work doesn't require racing flats -- it's really just about technique.

That's not to say that you should junk your flats, but definitely take what has happeend to your Achilles as a sign that you might not be able to combine speedwork with racing flats.  It might be that if you continue to do speedwork, wear more conventional running shoes when on the track, and as for the flats -- they might be perfect in a short tri where, realistically, you are not working at the pace at which you were knocking off those 800s.  

At the very least, separating the flats from the speedwork should help you to determine which bothers your Achilles more --- the workout or the footwear.  And FWIW, I cannot combine both speedwork and flats -- even back in the days I was tring to do so!  Most of us just don't have the bodies (esp. lower bodies) that can accommodate that combination, but seeing as how you seem to like both speedwork and flats (at laast when they aren't hurting you....), try to figure out to what degree you an continue employing them, but just maybe not together.

Finally, think about those speedwork options -- tempo runs and fartleks.  And also think about moving out of flats into one of the many available lightweight and low-profile options on the market nowadays.  Comapared to even a couple of years ago, the new roster of running shoes is staggering in it's breadth and depth.  It's only been in the past two or three years that people have started peppering their shoe-geek-talk with "heel drop", and whereas it used to be that 11.2oz was consdiered lightweight, well, now that has been eclipsed by so mnay non-flats that weigh in at 10.1...........and 9.6........and 8.4.........and 7.3..........and............lighterwards.    It might also be that your feet need some drop, and for you (and me) there are lots of options where the drop is around 4mm or 5mm -- really not much at all, and so much closer to the rground and seemingly that much more responsive.   Wheeeeeee!

Steve,

I should have been more clear - I am doing 2 workouts a week for each discipline S/B/R for a total of 6 workouts a week.

When you talk about increasing cadence (specifically running) are you saying with the increase in the number of foot strikes my pace should also be increased or should my pace be about the same?  I would think with the increased foot strike my pace should also be increased - am I correct?

Thanks!!