For those interested in Kona> (Page 3)

Isn't that what I just said?

But some feel there is MORE at stake here for AG'ers and I am fascinated to learn what that is.

Oh, and to answer Fred's initial question, it's just the law of large numbers. It will plateau as participation reaches it's peak. The older AG's will always represent faster times due to aerobic capacity advantages over younger non-pro's and time and $. I know in my case I can easily afford the sport and find the time to train for it to reach KQ standards.

Edited by bryancd 2010-08-09 7:03 PM

Fred, how many slots were allocated during those years? Wondering if the expansion of more IM races = fewer slots per race skew the averages. For instance were there 5 slots in 2007 and only 3 in 2010? I just think that it is getting faster because those faster people are staying in the sport longer. Triathlons have not really been around that long and I would guess that it will even out soon. Those 40+ guys are going to be in the 50+ age group and the times there are going to be taking a nose dive in a few years also.

Really? you think most athletes are getting faster because they use some sort of PED for that to be the end result? Call me naive but as a coach I don't see this rampant cheating you suggest and in fact, having access to some of these athletes' power files, GPS files and historical results who are producing great results, I can say that those purposely cheating are probably far in between.

Sure, many unknowingly might have used some sort if illegal drugs like an asthma inhaler or Sudafed (cold medicine) but I bet they've done so for actual medical reasons as opposed to PEDs and I also doubt they have the knowledge to take advantage of the potential positive effects, but many don't bother getting a TUE.

For instance, I know 6 of the top 8 places in the AG 35-39 from Ironman Lake Placid just a few weeks ago because I've coached or trained/raced with them and I have the power files of 4. Knowing them from years of racing and the numbers they have produced in both training and racing I can say they all are clean and their performances were just the result of good and more important, due to very consistent training. From the same race, our coaching biz had 5 podiums and 4 got tickets to Kona (that's a shameless plug btw); with their permission I could show you their progression with training/racing files and race results for at least a few years of training.

Not directed to you, but IMO some of those suggesting the only reason AGers are getting faster is due to PEDs do so an excuse to rationalize why they never will get there.  Yes, some might cheat but as I said, IMO those are in the minority. I also agree with Bryan, I just don't see why RDs or governing bodies should bother testing age groupers who does this as a hobby. The costs of such testing program would be insane, the implementation would be rather poor and the chances to catching someone who really knows how to use PEDs would be minimal. If someone wants to cheat their way to Kona and in the process expose their bodies to the negative side effects just for bragging rights I say let them go nuts.

Don't feed the troll. Jorge. I used to think he was here to learn...not so much recently.

If the difference between any of us making a Kona slot or not after 10+ years of training for that one race. The only way to make it there was to take drugs to make us that 20-30 mins faster...

I'm sure there would be lots of age groupers that would seriously consider doing it.

But in the end of the day. You are really only cheating yourself.  

Why don't they test all pro's and the top 10 AG's. That way those that are competeing for Kona slots legit are not slighted by someone cheating. I understand they prob. have no chance of competing against pro's (yet) but based on your comments I have read it seems you acknowledge the day is coming and I agree the day it does something will be done.

Here is some food for thought, how about those "AG's" (like me) who have to take heart med that regulates/ lowers heart rhythm? Should I be automaticcally DQ'd for meds I have to take. Or what about defib. implants that have shocked to the point of regulating heartbeat, feel a little pain, but makes you feel brand new. This happened to me in a 5k, but walked the rest because of it happeneing again. But I admit, I felt refreshed and if I didnt have those doubts, could have kept going. That sounds stupid, and it is, but someone out there who is that competitve will look for any edge. Its a double edged sword for AG's. If your a competitve AG, the money would be nice, but seeing your name at the top is (or would be) pretty good too. 

This sport has exploded two-fold; for those looking for a competitve edge (one they miss from competitve sports in HS or College) and to meet personal challenges and goals. This sport allows you to do that. I think the sport will level off closer to 5 years than 10, if not sooner. Everything is cyclical.

BTW, what did you find more impressive last year at Kona, Wellington's third win and how she did it, or the lady who took second and was her first marathon?

Most sports that have a testing system in place also have a process for people to apply for exemptions for this very reason.

While I don't think those using performance enhancers are in the majority, I do think it's more rampid than most think, and should be enforced if we want to bother making it a rule. If it's wrong then it's wrong. Why bother monitoring drafting, it just takes too many people to police it properly? I don't think that the AG doping goes to the hidden extremes that pro cycling goes to. Turn on the tv and you'll hear things like 'hormone replacement therapy' and 'wellness therapy'. To the casual world this is nothing to bat an eye at, but to us it's blatent cheating. Are there lots of people doing it? Absolutely. Is it the sole reason for KQ times getting faster? No way. But I think it's a bigger issue than the heads of our sport think. For them to test a handful at the top in Kona I think is a great idea. It gives those playing that game to think twice. Hopefully catching a few people and making an example will do wonders.

Jorge/Bryan/whoever, This wasn't directed at you or anyone really, it just seemed like a good entry for me to jump into the fray.

Personally though, I think that in the AG ranks that if a person trains hard enough he/she will overcome any of the 'shortcuts' that others use. Everyone qualifying isn't putting in 30 hours a week, so there's still plenty of room if you have the time to dedicate.

The fact that times are getting faster is a great motivation to me.  I want to qualify some day, and I like a hard challenge.  This one is hard.

I have no idea how many AGers are using PEDs and I couldn't care less.  Anyone who is doing it is stupid and pathetic, IMO, but I don't give it a second thought.  If USAT (or whomever) started testing AGers I would be depressed -- I do this for fun, and peeing in a cup in an atmosphere of vague accusation would not be fun -- but I love it enough that I'd probably keep doing it anyway.

I agree, TJ, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. I don't concern myself what anyone else does to their body, that's their choice, recreational sport not withstanding. You came from the pro ranke and might have a different prospective, but triathlon IS JUST A HOBBY for everyone else despite what bizarre import they may place upon it.

I think people misconstrued my post.

fwiw, I don't think doping is rampant in the ag ranks, in a response to those that think it is I suggested the testing.  WTC could almost predict the chances doping in the ranks based on a few simple factors (age, times, income, health factors) and it would come out very low.  Definately not 10%. 

Personally, if there was solied evidence dopers were qualifying, and an ag'er expired as a result of using a PED, I'd be for it.  I don't think that is or will be the case though.

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Well, between the EPO that Jorge gave me and the Steroids that Bryan passed on to me, it didn't help.  So needless to say, doping doesn't help the AG athlete

Just to be clear for those not in the 'know' red italics above is sarcasm.

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Edited by PennState 2010-08-10 7:27 AM

^^^^ What Fred said  ^^^^

x2, true in all things we encounter! 

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Good for you for not using/making up excuses.  I have no aspirations of going to Kona or any other IM race.  Nor do I have aspirations of the TDF; world body-building championships or the NFL.  I've been involved in sports all my life and I've seen first-hand (teammates) - doping in amateur sports.

Lots of people doing it clean.  Some people aren't.  It's the same in every sport, across the board.  And, in cases where there's no testing......well, you draw your own conclusions.

5:20 at SM or it was a fluke.  

I think testing AGers is a noble idea but something I don't see it could achieve the goal it is intended for. If some AGers indeed systematical used PEDs to get them to Kona, even if the WTC or USAT would to test them at the big race they could easily dope through training and stop before the race, gaining all the benefits increasing their fitness to new levels, qualify to the championship without getting any risk of getting a positive test. That's why I think it would kind of a waste of money.

In order for this to really be effective the WTC/USAT would need to do out of competition testing and really, how do you track and test a bunch of amateurs who are competing for nothing but bragging rights? Most of this AGers are successful professionals who travel all the time, if they miss a test because they were away on business and failed to notified the governing body will they be denied the participation in their race? will they be banned from all IMs? what happens if an AGers get a positive for Sudafed because he/she took it for a cold; will the positive be announced somewhere? Could an employer who probably doesn't understand the difference between Sudafed or Steroids can potentially get access to the results and potentially fired the athlete for "drug" use? What about if an AGer get's a false positive?

To me it just seems too much of a trouble, expense, and a mess to implement to really make this effective when at the end of the day there is not really anything to be gained from it but bragging rights. If they test only AGers in Kona (as I think they are planning to do) that's cool PR for the WTC and nothing more than that. For Pro athletes, yes, they need to do all this and more, but for AGers? I am just not sure.

If they want to really fix something, I would rather them doing something about drafting!

I've just scanned this thread so maybe this has already been addressed or dismissed but what about the increase of growth hormone is nearly everything we eat these day?  Yesterday there was a report that came out about many girls showing early sign of puberty as early as age 7.  Lot of pediatrians weighed in on the matter but I don't think anyone knows why.  One guy suggested the growth hormones they put in chicken and beef feed.

Secondly, I think society is slowly getting bigger, stronger, faster.  I remember my dad telling me about HS basketball players in his class were like 6' or 6'1" and occasionally you'd have a guy 6'2".  That was in the late 40s.

~Mike

I was thinking about this, too, Mike.  LA says he only eats free-ranging chickens.  I have to wonder if its for the reason you cite.

My wife and I were in a rest., Sunday (lunch).  In it, were several photos of NYC from what looked to be the 30's era.  Out of probably 150 men walking around in the photo........there wasn't a single one of them overweight.

We're more sedentary.  But, there's got to be something to what you're asking about.