Horrific clitoris (Page 3)

Hi Kathy,

I'll mention one other potential advantage to Cobb saddle, specifically the V-flow Max -- that is the sloped/lowered nose tip area... I like how the split in the saddle ends at a sloped down nose.

When you are sitting forward on this saddle, I like how the nose still provides support, but you are perched sitting a bit more "against" it, instead of being crunched/mashed down over the top of the tip - hopefully, that makes sense... 

Cobb's got a great return policy, it's worth considering -- Good luck!

Cheers, Chris

Thanks.  I'll look into that.  The Adamo concerns me as I'd think the "nose" area would be rather wide due to the cutout and I wonder if that creates yet another problem.  I'll check your recomendation.  Thanks again!

Kathy's post is super valuable and well written.

I do want to hold a mirror up to this and show how, within our culture, a discussion of saddle discomfort defaults to saddle recommendations as opposed to other strategies to improve saddle comfort such as bike fit and position, technical clothing, chamois cream, acclimation.

Saddle area hurts= buy new saddle.

It's an interesting and perpetual phenomenon.

At first I DEFINITELY was way too stretched out and after my first post (over at ST) I corrected that and an added bonus was I was then able to reach my water bottle in aero, so I know that was a good move.  Unfortunately the saddle I had gone back to broke for the last time and is gone so I have to work with the Bontrager or get something else down here somehow.  Kathy had posted yesterday about leaning forward at the waist and I tried that on last night's ride and I really think that was very helpful.  Another thing I've noticed is that this Bontrager saddle actually has a HUMP on the nose and when I switched to my husband's saddle that huge hump was gone.  I had a glimmer of hope last night when I used his seat stem and seat and stopped arching my back and also tried to position like Kathy (and you also above) state.  It never occurred to me that in an attempt to avoid pain I was actually bringing it upon myself by unintentionally arching my back, kind of trying to lift off the saddle if that makes any sense.  unfortunately, to get a fit would require international travel, so that will likely be the last straw...

BETS:  "Wondering if moving your saddle forward a little would get your tendermost bits centered over the 'dip' in the saddle, rather than crushing them on the nose of the saddle?  My saddle has to be all the way forward on the rails...I have experienced similar issues, but not nearly as bad with my saddle moved forward.  I use a Terry saddle with the cutout.  Also, I tend to do better with a thinner pad in trishorts rather than a thicker chamois in bike shorts. It's sort of counterintuitive, but I think the thickness makes the seams bother me more (that's more for that side of the labia soreness), though I haven't cleared that problem completely yet and just know that during season I will have a saddle sore or few.  Lube...I like Hoo Ha Ride Glide better than ChamoisButter.  I think I tried DZ Nuts Bliss once, but don't recall how I liked it.  Tried Assos cream for a while, but Ride Glide is now my favorite."

I have moved the Bontrager as far forward as possible and while I can get some bits in the dip, the region I'm having pain can't get there.  I'd pretty much have to be completely off the back of the saddle to get there and can't get the seat that far forward.  I'll try a thinner pad.  People keep mentioning that.  I've never had a problem with the bibs I use to this point but it is a data point.  I really only have one lube (and it was muled down here) but I'll put your recommendation on the wish list.  Thanks!

JSNOWASH: "FYI, the saddle I suggested (Selle SMP) has a cut-out that extends basically to the nose of the saddle, the nose also has a "beak" that dips down, so there is essentially no contact with those most sensitive areas.... I think you should start with fit, though, and progress from there."

INteresting.  Having the nose dip would be great!  thanks so much!

I was using a blackwell flow (back in 2007, original cobb seat I believe) with every trick in the book. I resolved to solve my issue.  Went to several bike fitters, finally went to Elite in Philly.  There they gave me shorter aerobars and put me on an Adamo Century.  My hoo ha has never been so happy.  I trained in 2010 for IMKY with no issues, never using chamois butter, with my desoto 400 miler shorts.  LOVE!

My only problem with the Adamo Century is the width, in that if you haven't ridden in a few days, your inner thigh muscles can get achey, but I usually find I work out of it.  I also think it restricts my hamstrings a little, and as I said, I think it wears out a little more quickly.  However, the benefits FAR outweigh the cons.

I've been riding lately in my team's Louis Garneau Tri shorts (the expensive option, don't know which one specifically) and I LOVE them.   The seams still can be an issue for comfort, and my bike mechanic recommended Assos shorts, but I may need a small loan to pay for them.  He said the chamois extends beyond the pelvic bones down the thigh, which I know for most of us ladies is a big issue (the seams for most chamois competes with our anatomy and the support of the seat).

The adamo will definitely satisfy your clitoris issue.  I guarantee it.

Not all of it has ...

But I do want to add my voice to thank Kathy for bringing this issue to light and say a bit more about a few things ...

The value of properly-fitting bike shorts can't be overestimated. For one thing, if they are skin-tight and worn that way (as they should be) they will hold your labia together so that your clitoris won't even touch the fabric. If there's any pressure or friction, it'll be borne by the far-less sensitive labia that have a fat layer underneath. With the properly fitting shorts, pressure from the saddle will actually cause the lips to hold tighter together, not spread apart to expose the clitoris.

Also Kathy ... you are one serious BAMF. For one thing, you sure showed up a lot of whiners with your performance and attitude at IMCoz, having been through minimal training and an extremely stressful time with your son's illness. For another, you did all that with THIS issue. Wow.

Ok, now this is something I was pondering on today's ride and thank you SO MUCH for being so specific.  After switching to my DH's stem and saddle from the Bontrager, I realized that "normal" for me was to feel public bones rolling over soft tissue constantly and once I got on DH's saddle I no longer felt the rolling/movement.  Today I spent most of 40 km in aero and was shocked to find no open sores when I got home.  That is a first for me.  I did first Desitin, then chamois buttr and then vaseline and just before I left I added more ChamoisButtr.  I was sure it was Too Much but I wanted to be able to put the "not enough lube" thought to rest.  I've always thought I used enough but today I was certain.  I am also sure that part of the problem is the raised nose on the Bontrager. 

HOWEVER, I have to ride on my right ischium  and cannot side directly straight on the saddle without much pain, and I was wondering today if it is normal to have you labia open up when sitting directly on the saddle as mine ALWAYS *feel* open.  I usually get out of the saddle then and try to get things to shift back together but once I sit down again I'm back to square one, so off I sit on the side in order to be able to sit in aero. 

I was CERTAIN my shorts were tight enough but thanks to your post, Yanti, I know they certainly can't be.  Is this the case with everyone?  Noone has their labia open ohen in aero?  That would make SUCH a huge difference in comfort, I'd imagine.  Again, thanks everyone.

Couldn't edit the previous message, so...  here are some pictures from yesterday's ride in the event they give anyone some constructive ideas...

Just wanted to chime in that I've had the Bontrager seat, same one you have, and while I liked the sitbones area, I hated the nose because it did feel like it's pressing against the frontal area. I got rid of it, and got Specialized Jett. It's not 100% better, but it's better.  Next saddle will be Adamo or Cobb. 

In the pictures, it looks like your fit is pretty good considering you're using a road bike. I would say you may be TAD bit stretched out, but that's what happens when you use aero bars on a roadie vs  a true TT bike. 

Some women has much more skin that flares open.  

I would second trying to find a noseless saddle (Adamo) and the Cobb. 

I'm going to second the Garneau shorts. I love mine. The chamois is flat and there is no seam at the edge.

I have no strong opinions about the fit but I will say that while I thought I was comfortable in aero on my road bike when I switched to a tri bike I realized how uncomfortable I had been before. You mention that your issues are less when not in aero so could it be something so simple as spending less time in aero to avoid this?

OMG I think I have a solution and I can't believe it never dawned on me before.  I was mulling over Yanti's response above on my run and it occured to me that perhaps I was only able to sit on one "side" and couldn't get on my sit bones because where I was trying to sit on the saddle was not wide enough.  So on today's ride I moved the seat even more forward and also ended up lowering the seat (after reading the thread on "is my seat too high") I noticed I was rocking my hips (even though I never noticed it before).  Then I thought hard on Kathy's advice on positioning and tried to "sink in" to the bike and found everything from shoulders to pelvis was able to come down.  I think that due to pain, I was unconsciously trying to lift all body parts off the saddle (making it very hard to ride).

I was now able to feel both sides making contact with the saddle and everyone was right - there was no reason for any soft tissues to be riding the saddle. So I think I am on the road to a solution (if not there already).  I have had 2 rides with no open sores and I'm very hopeful.  I think my problems were 1) the Bontrager saddle with a hump where no woman wants a hump; 2) poor bike fit, 3) poor aero positioning, 4) riding in aero such that NO sit bones were supporting me other than the bone at the very front of the vulva causing all soft tissues to be supporting my weight.  This is SUCH a difference now that I'm in a position to be on my sit bones.

Thanks so much to everyone who helped, Yanti and Kathy most especially and the person in the other "high saddle" thread who mentioned rocking hips as a sign your saddle is too high.  You guys have open invitations here.  Seriously.  Thank you again SO MUCH.  I still am going to get an Adamo if I can get a good deal on one but for now at least I'm able to ride.

And the weirdest thing is that after the last adjustment it felt like we had a tailwind both ways.  I felt so powerful and had a very low HR for as fast I was going.  I'd like to think it was the adjustments but think we must have had a freak tailwind on outbound in inbound.

Again, thanks everyone!

Very happy to read things are improving

I still think you should email Todd and see if he can come up with a work around on the no trainer issue and help you get in an ideal position. Your position looks better.

You have helped and will help many with the frank discussion of your issues.

Great to hear Kathy!  fyi, I was thinking about you today on my 104 mile ride (my awesome adamo) that no, things remained closed.  On the adamo it is meant really for aerobars (however I put my old one on my road bike too, since why mess with something if it works?  its prob not the seat I'll end up with on the roadie, but its a comfy start).  You rock forward onto the front of your pelvic bone, and the seat bones are resting on the seat, so you get like a triangular 3 point contact.

does that help?

and yes, seat too high always equals rocking hips, and often IT band issues.

That bike is way to big for you and your seat is much too high.  Seat need to come down several inches.  That could be part of the issue.

Some casual observations:

I like this position but I suspect the saddle height is trending high, possibly significantly high. Here is why I offer that insight:

1. Leg extension, as visually represented at the knee extension, appears on the long to very long (overextended) side.

2. Toe is pointed with heel well above toe at this phase of pedal stroke. That is absolutely normal in many riders- no problem there. The question arises if either that is due to the saddle height: Is the rider "reaching" for the pedals through the bottom of the pedal stroke? That would create additional saddle pressure and friction as the crotch rocks from side to side even minutely to facilitate this rocking.

3. While the angle between the torso and the femur (thigh) appear to be pretty close to 90 degrees, the desired relationship, the entire position is very "shifted back" with the rider sitting in a posture that places most of their weight on the saddle and little on the handlebars. If even 15 pounds more weight could be oriented forward on the bike this would profoundly (and positively) affect saddle sensation and comfort. If combined with the appropriate saddle height (lower) this would likely solve some (most) of the saddle distress issue.

A key feature here is that the rider's position, specifically saddle position (height predominantly, but also effective seat tube angle) is likely the key set of factors creating saddle discomfort based strictly on this photo.

The rider's posture on the bike is excellent, bending at the hips and not in the lumbar vertibrae and their shorts appear to fit appropriately. Those two factors appear good.

If the bike position, especially saddle height, aren't right no saddle is going to be optimal.

Congrats and glad your ride virtually pain free.