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2012-10-31 12:29 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
JoshR - 2012-10-31 12:28 PM

jford2309 - 2012-10-31 11:08 AM Did anyone watch the third party candidates debate on CSpan last week. Gary Johnson was on there along with 3 other candidates. If you watched that debate, then I think you will understand why people think voting outside of the two major parties is throwing away a vote.

As opposed to the Obama/Romney debates where we had 2 candidates lying out their teeth about anything and everything that the American people want to hear? That did even more to convince me that I couldn't possibly vote for them.

 

but did you watch their debate?



2012-10-31 12:31 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
mr2tony - 2012-10-31 11:24 AM
powerman - 2012-10-31 11:46 AM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 10:35 AM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare. Frankly, I am not concerned about how much money I have in my pocket (even though I do believe Obama's fiscal policies are risky yet effective) -- I back my gay friends and the women in my life whose happiness and healthfulness are much more important that what my tax rate will be. Edit: Oh yeah, I think Obama is going to win. (Shocking, I know.)

Wow, I did not know Romney wanted unaffordable health care.

These wedge issues are nothing more than propaganda. If Romney is elected, he will not lift a finger to change rights for gays, or do anything for RvW. Candidates only use the issue to pander to the base, and vilify the other guy.

I won't vote for someone who opposes gay marriage and is pro-life and wants to defund Planned Parenthood. Mitt Romney opposes gay marriage. Mitt Romney is a ``pro-life candidate.'' Mitt Romney has said he wants to defund Planned Parenthood. I will not vote for Mitt Romney.

Just as long as you agree he is not for unaffordable health care. Wink

... but actually, you voted for Obama that did oppose gay marriage... and then later he changed his mind. Just sayin'. He was against it when he needed to be. He can pander just like the est of them.



Edited by powerman 2012-10-31 12:33 PM
2012-10-31 12:46 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
powerman - 2012-10-31 12:31 PM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 11:24 AM
powerman - 2012-10-31 11:46 AM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 10:35 AM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare. Frankly, I am not concerned about how much money I have in my pocket (even though I do believe Obama's fiscal policies are risky yet effective) -- I back my gay friends and the women in my life whose happiness and healthfulness are much more important that what my tax rate will be. Edit: Oh yeah, I think Obama is going to win. (Shocking, I know.)

Wow, I did not know Romney wanted unaffordable health care.

These wedge issues are nothing more than propaganda. If Romney is elected, he will not lift a finger to change rights for gays, or do anything for RvW. Candidates only use the issue to pander to the base, and vilify the other guy.

I won't vote for someone who opposes gay marriage and is pro-life and wants to defund Planned Parenthood. Mitt Romney opposes gay marriage. Mitt Romney is a ``pro-life candidate.'' Mitt Romney has said he wants to defund Planned Parenthood. I will not vote for Mitt Romney.

Just as long as you agree he is not for unaffordable health care. Wink

... but actually, you voted for Obama that did oppose gay marriage... and then later he changed his mind. Just sayin'. He was against it when he needed to be. He can pander just like the est of them.



Oh I have no illusions that Obama is some sort of saint. How's the line from that Clancy movie go?

``I'm a politician. Which means when I'm not kissing babies I'm stealing from them.''
2012-10-31 12:55 PM
in reply to: #4477017

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
mr2tony - 2012-10-31 11:46 AM
powerman - 2012-10-31 12:31 PM
mr2tony - 2012-10-31 11:24 AM
powerman - 2012-10-31 11:46 AM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 10:35 AM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare. Frankly, I am not concerned about how much money I have in my pocket (even though I do believe Obama's fiscal policies are risky yet effective) -- I back my gay friends and the women in my life whose happiness and healthfulness are much more important that what my tax rate will be. Edit: Oh yeah, I think Obama is going to win. (Shocking, I know.)

Wow, I did not know Romney wanted unaffordable health care.

These wedge issues are nothing more than propaganda. If Romney is elected, he will not lift a finger to change rights for gays, or do anything for RvW. Candidates only use the issue to pander to the base, and vilify the other guy.

I won't vote for someone who opposes gay marriage and is pro-life and wants to defund Planned Parenthood. Mitt Romney opposes gay marriage. Mitt Romney is a ``pro-life candidate.'' Mitt Romney has said he wants to defund Planned Parenthood. I will not vote for Mitt Romney.

Just as long as you agree he is not for unaffordable health care. Wink

... but actually, you voted for Obama that did oppose gay marriage... and then later he changed his mind. Just sayin'. He was against it when he needed to be. He can pander just like the est of them.

Oh I have no illusions that Obama is some sort of saint. How's the line from that Clancy movie go? ``I'm a politician. Which means when I'm not kissing babies I'm stealing from them.''

Certainly. And obviously I do not have a problem with people voting how they believe on social issues. I just think in the bigger picture, social issues do plenty to fire up the base an get people arguing, but in reality they do very little to get any political action moving.

RvW has not changed for 30 years, and it will not change for another 30. Look at gay rights... this has been a very sloooow process. Heck, I live in the hate state, Colorado. That name was given to us for voting for an a amendment to deny gay's "special treatment" . (overturned) But that was 15 years ago. Even DADT.... most did not have a problem with reversing it, even with all the patriotism for those going to war, but look how long it took to change it. Even the JCOS didn't really have a problem with it. So even though that issue may be important and you want to vote for a candidate that is "pro gay" for a whole host of reasons... even they do not do much of anything to change things.

2012-10-31 12:57 PM
in reply to: #4476840

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 12:35 PM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare.

1.  Please tell me how Romney is "against a woman's to have affordable healthcare"?  Does he have a secret bill that will make women pay 10x more than men?

2.  Did you support Obama in 2008?  Because he was against gay marriage then.  And wow how he's done so much to champion it since that change of tune...



Edited by TriRSquared 2012-10-31 12:59 PM
2012-10-31 1:04 PM
in reply to: #4476420

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
I am so glad I already voted...


2012-10-31 1:09 PM
in reply to: #4477038

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
powerman - 2012-10-31 12:55 PM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 11:46 AM
powerman - 2012-10-31 12:31 PM
mr2tony - 2012-10-31 11:24 AM
powerman - 2012-10-31 11:46 AM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 10:35 AM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare. Frankly, I am not concerned about how much money I have in my pocket (even though I do believe Obama's fiscal policies are risky yet effective) -- I back my gay friends and the women in my life whose happiness and healthfulness are much more important that what my tax rate will be. Edit: Oh yeah, I think Obama is going to win. (Shocking, I know.)

Wow, I did not know Romney wanted unaffordable health care.

These wedge issues are nothing more than propaganda. If Romney is elected, he will not lift a finger to change rights for gays, or do anything for RvW. Candidates only use the issue to pander to the base, and vilify the other guy.

I won't vote for someone who opposes gay marriage and is pro-life and wants to defund Planned Parenthood. Mitt Romney opposes gay marriage. Mitt Romney is a ``pro-life candidate.'' Mitt Romney has said he wants to defund Planned Parenthood. I will not vote for Mitt Romney.

Just as long as you agree he is not for unaffordable health care. Wink

... but actually, you voted for Obama that did oppose gay marriage... and then later he changed his mind. Just sayin'. He was against it when he needed to be. He can pander just like the est of them.

Oh I have no illusions that Obama is some sort of saint. How's the line from that Clancy movie go? ``I'm a politician. Which means when I'm not kissing babies I'm stealing from them.''

Certainly. And obviously I do not have a problem with people voting how they believe on social issues. I just think in the bigger picture, social issues do plenty to fire up the base an get people arguing, but in reality they do very little to get any political action moving.

RvW has not changed for 30 years, and it will not change for another 30. Look at gay rights... this has been a very sloooow process. Heck, I live in the hate state, Colorado. That name was given to us for voting for an a amendment to deny gay's "special treatment" . (overturned) But that was 15 years ago. Even DADT.... most did not have a problem with reversing it, even with all the patriotism for those going to war, but look how long it took to change it. Even the JCOS didn't really have a problem with it. So even though that issue may be important and you want to vote for a candidate that is "pro gay" for a whole host of reasons... even they do not do much of anything to change things.



I know that things may not change or will change very slowly, but I can't vote for someone with whom I have such a strong fundamental disagreement. Someone who is against legalizing gay marriage will never get my vote.
2012-10-31 1:24 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 2:09 PM I know that things may not change or will change very slowly, but I can't vote for someone with whom I have such a strong fundamental disagreement. Someone who is against legalizing gay marriage will never get my vote.

So I'll ask again.  Did you vote for Obama in 2008?

2012-10-31 1:27 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
TriRSquared - 2012-10-31 12:57 PM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 12:35 PM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare.

1.  Please tell me how Romney is "against a woman's to have affordable healthcare"?  Does he have a secret bill that will make women pay 10x more than men?

2.  Did you support Obama in 2008?  Because he was against gay marriage then.  And wow how he's done so much to champion it since that change of tune...



See above.

Second, I voted for Obama in 2008. In 2008, he opposed Prop 8, indicating that he wouldn't support something that inhibited the rights of people to be happy. I am glad he has evolved into saying that he full-on supports same-sex marriage. And frankly, in 2008 it was an issue for me but not as big of one. I'm glad I've evolved and can fully admit it's the most-important issue on which I'm basing my vote. I've never said he did much to change it but at least he and I, now, are on the same page with regard to our stances on same-sex marriages. And that is what is important to me.
2012-10-31 1:31 PM
in reply to: #4477119

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
mr2tony - 2012-10-31 1:27 PM
TriRSquared - 2012-10-31 12:57 PM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 12:35 PM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare.

1.  Please tell me how Romney is "against a woman's to have affordable healthcare"?  Does he have a secret bill that will make women pay 10x more than men?

2.  Did you support Obama in 2008?  Because he was against gay marriage then.  And wow how he's done so much to champion it since that change of tune...

See above. Second, I voted for Obama in 2008. In 2008, he opposed Prop 8, indicating that he wouldn't support something that inhibited the rights of people to be happy. I am glad he has evolved into saying that he full-on supports same-sex marriage. And frankly, in 2008 it was an issue for me but not as big of one. I'm glad I've evolved and can fully admit it's the most-important issue on which I'm basing my vote. I've never said he did much to change it but at least he and I, now, are on the same page with regard to our stances on same-sex marriages. And that is what is important to me.

 

I know we have our differences in whom we are supporting for President, but same sex marriages is the most important thing thing to you in this election? Am I reading that right?

2012-10-31 1:37 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
TriRSquared - 2012-10-31 1:24 PM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 2:09 PM I know that things may not change or will change very slowly, but I can't vote for someone with whom I have such a strong fundamental disagreement. Someone who is against legalizing gay marriage will never get my vote.

So I'll ask again.  Did you vote for Obama in 2008?



The funny part of all this is I can only really remember one reason I voted for each president in every election in which I've voted. And it's never once broken down to economics or gay marriage. I guess maybe in the early 90s it did in a roundabout way.

Anyway, I voted for Bush Sr., Dole, Bush Jr., Kerry and Obama.

Bush Sr.: I was in the military and knew Clinton would cut the military, which he did.
Dole: Basically the same reason, but I was already out of the military.
Bush Jr.: Because, well, Gore was just that bad and Bush Sr. was a good president so I figured what the heck.
Kerry: Because Bush Jr.'s shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later attitude was quite off-putting.
Obama: Basically the same reason -- I figured McCain would continue to lead us down the path of self-destruction.


2012-10-31 1:43 PM
in reply to: #4476420

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win

State: Voting ratio: Winner: Current Polls

NC: 49/49: Obama: Romney +5

IN: 49/48: Obama: Tie

FL: 51/48: Obama: Tie

OH: 51/46: Obama: Obama +3

VA: 52/46: Obama: Romney +3

CO: 53/44: Obama: Romney +1

I would suggest looking a little more closely at the state polls. 

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/oct-30-what-state-polls-suggest-about-the-national-popular-vote/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/elections/

Nate Silver's 538 blog and Real Clear Politics both have an extensive list of all of the recent state polls.  There are numerous different polling organizations (all with slightly different methodologies and biases).

For example, you list Romney with 1% lead in CO.  There was a poll out yesterday that gave Romney a 1 point lead, but there is one out today that gives Obama a 1 point lead.  Of the 5 most recent polls in CO, Obama led in 4 out of 5.

You list Romney with a 3% lead in VA, but there are two polls out today.  One has Romney with a 5 point lead, but the other has Obama with a 2 point lead.  Of the 7 VA polls over the last week, Romney led in 2, Obama led in 3, and 2 were ties.

I would put both CO and VA in the toss up category, but if forced to predict a winner, I will lean towards Obama in these two states.  The state polls show Obama with a consistent, although narrow, lead in WI, MI, IA, NH, and most critically Ohio.  Romney has had a pretty consistent advantage in NC and FL.

If you add up the electoral votes, it favors Obama.  Pretty much every group that has looked at the possible electoral count on a state by state basis has Obama with the lead.

For Romney to win the electoral college, he needs to hold Florida (one of the FL polls out today has Obama with a 1 point lead in FL), and he then has to either win OH (all the polls say Obama has the lead) or he has to sweep all of the other battle ground states.

I think Romney has a much better chance of winning the popular vote than he does of winning the electoral college.

FWIW, I too am voting for Johnson.  If Obama loses CO by 1 vote, and the loss of CO's electoral votes cost him the election, my wife is going to kill me.

2012-10-31 1:46 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
jford2309 - 2012-10-31 1:31 PM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 1:27 PM
TriRSquared - 2012-10-31 12:57 PM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 12:35 PM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare.

1.  Please tell me how Romney is "against a woman's to have affordable healthcare"?  Does he have a secret bill that will make women pay 10x more than men?

2.  Did you support Obama in 2008?  Because he was against gay marriage then.  And wow how he's done so much to champion it since that change of tune...

See above. Second, I voted for Obama in 2008. In 2008, he opposed Prop 8, indicating that he wouldn't support something that inhibited the rights of people to be happy. I am glad he has evolved into saying that he full-on supports same-sex marriage. And frankly, in 2008 it was an issue for me but not as big of one. I'm glad I've evolved and can fully admit it's the most-important issue on which I'm basing my vote. I've never said he did much to change it but at least he and I, now, are on the same page with regard to our stances on same-sex marriages. And that is what is important to me.

 

I know we have our differences in whom we are supporting for President, but same sex marriages is the most important thing thing to you in this election? Am I reading that right?



I typed up a long drawn-out answer to this explaining why. And then erased it.

Instead I'll just say `Yes. It's the issue I feel most passionately about.'
2012-10-31 1:59 PM
in reply to: #4476840

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 9:35 AM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare. Frankly, I am not concerned about how much money I have in my pocket (even though I do believe Obama's fiscal policies are risky yet effective) -- I back my gay friends and the women in my life whose happiness and healthfulness are much more important that what my tax rate will be. Edit: Oh yeah, I think Obama is going to win. (Shocking, I know.)

Abortions do not result in happiness or healthfulness -- especially for the baby.

2012-10-31 2:05 PM
in reply to: #4477211

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
cadmus - 2012-10-31 1:59 PM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 9:35 AM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare. Frankly, I am not concerned about how much money I have in my pocket (even though I do believe Obama's fiscal policies are risky yet effective) -- I back my gay friends and the women in my life whose happiness and healthfulness are much more important that what my tax rate will be. Edit: Oh yeah, I think Obama is going to win. (Shocking, I know.)

Abortions do not result in happiness or healthfulness -- especially for the baby.



Joe Walsh! Is that you!?
2012-10-31 2:06 PM
in reply to: #4477168

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
moneyman - 2012-10-31 2:43 PM

I would suggest looking a little more closely at the state polls. 

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/oct-30-what-state-polls-suggest-about-the-national-popular-vote/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/elections/

Nate Silver's 538 blog and Real Clear Politics both have an extensive list of all of the recent state polls.  There are numerous different polling organizations (all with slightly different methodologies and biases).

For example, you list Romney with 1% lead in CO.  There was a poll out yesterday that gave Romney a 1 point lead, but there is one out today that gives Obama a 1 point lead.  Of the 5 most recent polls in CO, Obama led in 4 out of 5.

You list Romney with a 3% lead in VA, but there are two polls out today.  One has Romney with a 5 point lead, but the other has Obama with a 2 point lead.  Of the 7 VA polls over the last week, Romney led in 2, Obama led in 3, and 2 were ties.

I would put both CO and VA in the toss up category, but if forced to predict a winner, I will lean towards Obama in these two states.  The state polls show Obama with a consistent, although narrow, lead in WI, MI, IA, NH, and most critically Ohio.  Romney has had a pretty consistent advantage in NC and FL.

If you add up the electoral votes, it favors Obama.  Pretty much every group that has looked at the possible electoral count on a state by state basis has Obama with the lead.

For Romney to win the electoral college, he needs to hold Florida (one of the FL polls out today has Obama with a 1 point lead in FL), and he then has to either win OH (all the polls say Obama has the lead) or he has to sweep all of the other battle ground states.

I think Romney has a much better chance of winning the popular vote than he does of winning the electoral college.

FWIW, I too am voting for Johnson.  If Obama loses CO by 1 vote, and the loss of CO's electoral votes cost him the election, my wife is going to kill me.

Yes every poll lists different #s.  I grabbed the AP polls I had at hand.  Either way all of the polls I quoted have them within the margin of error.  Which means it's really a toss up.  And when it's a toss up I'm giving the edge to Romney because of the reasons I listed in my post.

Good job voting for Johnson!



2012-10-31 2:07 PM
in reply to: #4476420

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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
Bottom line is it is too close to call and all the polls are close enough to be off by their margin of error. With Obama's horrible record, it should be a landslide against him, but the one thing the polls can say is it is certainly not a landslide. That favors the incumbent.
2012-10-31 2:15 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
powerman - 2012-10-31 2:07 PM

Bottom line is it is too close to call and all the polls are close enough to be off by their margin of error. With Obama's horrible record, it should be a landslide against him, but the one thing the polls can say is it is certainly not a landslide. That favors the incumbent.


It could still be an ELECTORAL landslide either way. It just takes the polls to be off a few points going the same direction across the swing states.

2012-10-31 2:43 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win

scoobysdad - 2012-10-31 2:15 PM
powerman - 2012-10-31 2:07 PM Bottom line is it is too close to call and all the polls are close enough to be off by their margin of error. With Obama's horrible record, it should be a landslide against him, but the one thing the polls can say is it is certainly not a landslide. That favors the incumbent.
It could still be an ELECTORAL landslide either way. It just takes the polls to be off a few points going the same direction across the swing states.

makes me wonder how badly can you lose the popular vote and still win.

2012-10-31 2:55 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
mr2tony - 2012-10-31 1:05 PM
cadmus - 2012-10-31 1:59 PM

mr2tony - 2012-10-31 9:35 AM I can't support a candidate who is against gay marriage and a woman's right to choose and have affordable healthcare. Frankly, I am not concerned about how much money I have in my pocket (even though I do believe Obama's fiscal policies are risky yet effective) -- I back my gay friends and the women in my life whose happiness and healthfulness are much more important that what my tax rate will be. Edit: Oh yeah, I think Obama is going to win. (Shocking, I know.)

Abortions do not result in happiness or healthfulness -- especially for the baby.

Joe Walsh! Is that you!?

Just shut that whole thing down.

2012-10-31 3:04 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win

scoobysdad - 2012-10-31 1:15 PM
powerman - 2012-10-31 2:07 PM Bottom line is it is too close to call and all the polls are close enough to be off by their margin of error. With Obama's horrible record, it should be a landslide against him, but the one thing the polls can say is it is certainly not a landslide. That favors the incumbent.
It could still be an ELECTORAL landslide either way. It just takes the polls to be off a few points going the same direction across the swing states.

Certainly possible. We'll see.



2012-10-31 3:29 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
chirunner134 - 2012-10-31 12:43 PM

scoobysdad - 2012-10-31 2:15 PM
powerman - 2012-10-31 2:07 PM Bottom line is it is too close to call and all the polls are close enough to be off by their margin of error. With Obama's horrible record, it should be a landslide against him, but the one thing the polls can say is it is certainly not a landslide. That favors the incumbent.
It could still be an ELECTORAL landslide either way. It just takes the polls to be off a few points going the same direction across the swing states.

makes me wonder how badly can you lose the popular vote and still win.

Would be an interesting experiment, but take a long time.  If candidate A squeeks by with 51% popular in just 271 electoral college states, then gets 0% in all the others...  Or, if we had a true multi-party system where you could get a plurality in 271 votes, maybe even 34% of the vote, and 0% everywhere else.

Although, if we still had state militias, that's a recipe for civil war

2012-10-31 3:31 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
yeah I am just talking getting 50.00000000000001% of the vote in the ones you win and 0 in the ones you lose.
2012-10-31 3:32 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win
scorpio516 - 2012-10-31 4:29 PM

Although, if we still had state militias, that's a recipe for civil war

You say that like it's a bad thing...

2012-10-31 3:37 PM
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Subject: RE: I'm calling the election: Romney will win

A discussion at lunch brought forth another point why a vote for Johnson is not a waste:

If the Libertarians receive over five percent of the popular vote, they will be entitled to matching federal funds (about $90 million) from the Federal Government, passing the threshold under the Federal Election Campaign Act.

This is go a long way to help them next election cycle.

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