Pope to Resign (Page 3)

Funny, #1 is pretty much what I see from most religions.

There's a distinct line between teaching one's religious viewpoint - whether through words or actions - and legislating it.

I believe much of what is on that list. Good thing I stopped claiming to be Catholic a long time ago.

When? I grew up in Maryland and went to Catholic school K- 8 in the late 60s/early 70s. Never heard one negative thing directed at me or Catholics in general. Plenty about Jews and blacks though.

Also, what I remember from those days, we did pray to saints.

It's funny, I have a friend who claims along with a few other women to have been ordained a Catholic priest a few years ago on a boat near Pittsburgh. (She doesn't actually speak to me anymore, but I still think of her as a friend)

At one point before that mock ordination, I said more or less, "You know you don't actually believe what the Church teaches about a number of issues. You believe in the right to abortion. You support gay marriage. You don't believe in the Eucharist as the real presence of Jesus. Yet, you claim to be called by God to be a Catholic priest.  Why not just be an Anglican or a Lutheran?"

I still don't get it. The whole thing seemed to be just rooted in pride.

I was there in the 90s.  Maybe times changed in 20-30 years.  But then again, you know what they say about "remembering the 60s"

As for praying to the saints.  The correct concept is that you "ask intercession from the saints". So you say "St Michael, Pray for us in Battle" for example. You don't pray to St Michael, you ask him to use his position as a saint to pray to God for your safety in battle. 

As I'm a departed Evangelical, I think there is some weight to suggesting that is rooted in early church/Roman traditions of replacing a city god (Juno, Jupiter, Mars, Apollo, etc) with a Saint (Michael = Mars for example). 

I remember my 8th grade Baltimore Catechism Class as being one of the most painfully boring classes taught by a priest who must've been the original writer of the book of Genesis...

Yeah, Christians do it all the time when we ask one another to pray for us.  Happens quite regularly here on CoJ.  In the case of the saints, we're asking someone who is already enjoying the beatific vision.

Most especially, we can ask it of Jesus' mother.  After all, who can refuse their mother?

When I first heard the news this morning, my snap reaction was, "Hmm, sounds like politics...perhaps being forced out?"  But the more I heard and read, the more I was and am convinced this is just a wise decision.  He's 85 and seems to understand his body and mind won't be operating at optimal levels, let alone levels it takes to effectively communicate his message.  He was there front row to watch his predecessor's decline.  I admire his decision...there are a few professional athletes that could learn something from this.  

I like to think this is right too and that the Pope is doing this for the good of the church.

Also, as regards to previous comments about persecution and bigotry, I'm sure it is everywhere for everyone of every faith.  However, I am a Catholic in the Middle East and a Muslim friend insisted on going with me to find the Catholic Church.

People seem to experience what they expect to experience.  I keep experiencing non-Catholics supporting me in my faith so I must expect it in someway. 

That's interesting. Can you say more about that?

That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that.

Maybe it's semantics, but...

http://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/prayers-to-st-anthony.html

"You know when I was your age, I went out to fishing with all my brothers and my father, and everybody. And I was, I was the only one who caught a fish. Nobody else could catch one except me. You know how I did it? Every time I put the line in the water I said a Hail Mary and every time I said a Hail Mary I caught a fish. You believe that? It's true, that's the secret. You wanna try it when we go out on the lake?" - Fredo Corleone

As I recall, that didn't work out well for Fredo when he went out fishing with Michael...

I always grab my son's face and say "I knew it was you FREDO!" then give him a big kiss.  Now he does the same to me. 

Truth be told.  I have always felt that Hail Mary's were a meditation technique more than asking for intercession.  You say 10 hail mary's and while the words are coming-out, your mind goes to things that are weighing on you.  I said Hail Mary's whenever stuff went down in Iraq.  Can't say it was that which got me home, but I can't say it wasn't.

That's terrific. It shows again that Catholics don't worship saints.
That seems to be what many non-Catholic Christians think is part of Catholic teaching.

Fredo, you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.

On the rare occasion that I have trouble falling asleep I say Hail Marys. Works every time.

Good mothers have that way of calming us down.

Here's an excerpt  from an interview with Cardinal Turkson:

Question: How would US media handle this line of thinking coming from a Ghanaian/African Pope should he be elected? 

(peterTurkson.jpg)

I think the US media in general would report the above quote word for word.  A majority of the major networks would probably also point out that point #1 is debatable (but most Americans could really care less about ethnic diversity in Europe), and on point #2, I can confidently say they'd point out this is contrary to the opinions of an overwhelming majority of Americans.

Personally, on point one, I somewhat agree with the guy.  On point two, I would hope he's saying condoms aren't THE solution, but part of the solution. (but I'm pretty sure he's not).  The Vatican has been well-intentioned, but when it comes to HIV in Africa, they've been complicit in the HIV epidemic.  (in my opinion of course)

I read that and I just thought, "wow," it sounds like this guy is running for the top job.  I thought an appropriate answer would be more in the vein of, "you know, it is all God's will, and this and that..."  Not, "if I get the job, which is possible you know, this is what I am going to be up to."

Also the discussion about what happened during the last vote, for some reason I thought that stuff was secret.

That part bothered me as well.  I gave it a couple more readings and could see that it could be a bad editing job of what he was trying to say or not having full command of the language, or maybe not.

There's that saying, "He who goes in a Pope comes out a Cardinal".

Right. But they couldn't use the "old white man" narrative. I think that would be a head scratcher for them.  They would dismiss him in some other way, but the normal talking points ad hominems wouldn't work.

I don't have a preference for who the next pope is. I want what the Holy Spirit wants and He's not talking to me about it.

Sure as bingo on Saturday night though I'm sure that he will be:

1. A man
2. A baptized man
3. A baptized  man who is not married ( my boys are excited that they're eligible in theory )
4. Given that he will be chosen by the college of Cardinals, he will most probably come from them and therefore be a Catholic unwavering from orthodox doctrine and dogma

So if in addition he comes from a third world country, it will do a lot to shake up the normal anti-catholic narrative.

So using American political language around the triumvrant of issues most important to Americans(not exactly accurate language coming from a Catholic perspective) my guess is that the next pope will be:

1. Far to the right regarding social issues.
2. Fairly left of center regarding economic issues 
3. In the center regarding issues of war and peace 

Doctrine regarding abortion, sex of any kind outside of marriage gay or otherwise, contraception, euthanasia, will never be changed.  There will also be a stepping up of pressure on Catholic politicians worldwide to witness to their faith in the public square.  Mario Cuomo's theory of "personally opposed but publicly supportive" of abortion for example, will be shown to be false. Pro-choice Catholic politicians for example will indeed need to make a choice. Regarding what some think of incorrectly as a social issue rather than a theological one, he'll remind us that there won't be any women priests ever since it's not possible.

The next pope will probably lean left of center on economic issues.  There will be discussions around issues like the balance between subsidiarity and solidarity and where we as Catholics ought to find the line for that balance.  A Cardinal such as Turkson leans more toward the side of solidarity, and so would be seen as leaning very far left.  

Regarding war and peace, the pontificate will be mostly concerned in my opinion with Islam and China. The Church has a longer memory than does Islam, being older than Islam, so she remembers how the Islamic world came to be in the first place.  It is not a happy memory.  China has always been brutally hostile to Christian evangelization.  How does a rising and powerful China and the Christian world live in peace given that history.

My guess would be a translation to English issue. He does have quite a lot of time in English speaking areas, but then again popes and their cardinals always have edit authority over visiting media. Turkson may not have had that check before the interview was published.

There was a story Bono (from U2) tells about meeting JP2 and the pope pointed at his blue sunglasses. So Bono took them off and handed them to the ~85 year old. The pope put them on, smiled, and flashed a peace sign. The cameramen were snapping pics like crazy.

Bono says one of the cardinals walked over to the photographers and asked for their cameras. The pics as far as I know never made it out.

One did!

I miss that man like he was my own father.

(Bono JPII.jpg)