Catholics - Why do you do that? (Page 3)

If the only humans on Earth were Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel what type of creatures did they marry?

The Church teaches that all salvation comes from Christ the head through His Church which is the body.

We know from scripture that those who are baptized will be saved: Mark 16:16, that we must repent: Luke 13:3, and that if we eat the body of Christ and drink his blood we will have eternal life and be raised on the last day: John 6:54.

Each of these three sacraments: baptism, reconciliation, the eucharist, are ministered through the Church. The last two need an ordained minister priest/bishop to be ministered; ordination itself being a sacrament.

So in scripture Jesus says that the ministry of the Church results in entering heaven.

What of those who don't belong to the Catholic Church, or aren't Christians, or have no belief in God whatsoever.

The Church can say with authority that certain persons are in heaven.  These are the named saints. We trust that others are in heaven and are also saints. I'm certain my mother is a saint, although she'll never have a Church named after her.  

However, the Church cannot speak with authority regarding who is in hell, aside from the fallen angels. We just don't know.

Heaven belongs to Jesus. He can let in whomever he wants.  Catholic, non-Catholic Christian, non Christian person of faith, atheist.  Still, entry comes through Christ as head and the Church as body.  

So the answer to your question is both yes and no. Yes, the Catholic Church is the one true Church and the Church that makes it possible, through its ministry as the body to Christ's head, to enter heaven. No, you don't have to necessarily be a member of the Church when you die to get to heaven.

To part one: No. It's not possible.  It's never happened.  It never will.

To part two: No big deal. The authority and protection of the Holy Spirit regarding definitions of doctrine rests with the office, not with the man.

The long held meaning of myth is that it is a truth that speaks to a deeper reality than mere facts can convey.

You don't honestly think that in 2000 thousand years of serious Catholic thinking, or the 3000 years of serious Jewish thought that came before it, no one noticed or considered what you wrote, do you?

I have a question relating to the crucifix, specifically the ones that show Jesus on the cross. How do you reconcile that with the 10 commandments, specifically "You not shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth?"

Always wondered, was afraid I might insult someone by asking.

Not at all, but that is just one of the many questions that we asked in catechism.  The nuns always told us to have faith in what was written.

I need to copy and paste this...you are able to put into words what I "know" but can rarely explain well....

OK, gotcha. Sorry I snapped at you.

You know, I got that sort of answer as well, just have faith. They didn't satisfy me and contributed to my falling away from the Church.

I think it was because growing up in a working class ethnic parish and community, the good sisters and priests were simply not prepared for how to teach more educated children. They were formed in how to teach the children of factory workers who would themselves become factory workers.  So the only answer they had was, just have faith.

In the end, that answer is true.  There are better ones just as true though. 

When I use to fly I knew what an Immelmann was, but could never pull one off... 

That's sort of what I thought, but leads to a follow up: If the Pope (the office) is infallible, why does it matter who they select?

I can see that Don's been playing whack-a-mole with the questions today and doing an exceptional job at it. 

I'll say that the use of the Spanish Cross (Jesus on the Cross, bloody, with the nails, blood, etc.) is a very effective lesson to Catholics on the crucifixion.  Even historians would agree that Jesus was tortured, hung on a cross, and died with great suffering.  It was done early in church history when people couldn't read (as were the stations of the cross) to show a cartoon essentially of the most significant parts of the faith.

As a former Catholic who now is pretty active in an Evangelical setting, I find it interesting to see just how little communion, the last supper, the passion, the crucifixion, etc are understood by the Evangelicals as compared with the Catholics.  Catholics have constant reminders of that and it's very effective at reminding you that Christ died in a horribly painful way to take away your sin.  It's something to rejoice about.

Moses made a Nehushtan symbol that cured people of their snake bites.  Likewise, the Cross is a symbol of curing the people of their sins (snakes being connected to Satan from the book of Genesis). Hezekiah ordered the Nehushtan destroyed because people were praying to it. Which means if you start praying to something instead of to God, then your worship is misguided.

What I will say is that the last two churches I've made my church home did not have crosses and I was ok with that after a lot of deliberation.   Bottom line, if you worship it, then you're making a graven image.  If it's treated as a symbol and a reminder, then it's not something you worship, then you wouldn't be breaking the commandments.

The pope isn't infallible.  He can speak with infallibility in certain instances.  The only two that have ever occured and been concurred as infallible are:

1) That Christ was born through immaculate conception and that Mary was free from Original Sin at the time of her conception.  If she wasn't, then Christ couldn't have been free from sin.

2) That Mary was "assumed" into heaven.  Basically that she didn't die like the rest of us, God pulled her into heaven in bodily form at her death which is why there are none of Mary's remains but Peter's remains were kept.

If Pope Francis ever declares infallibility, it'll be something that is already believed and that he's just reiterating. 

If you look at all the days of Genesis,

Day 1 was a Sunday, he made light and it was good.
Day 2 was a Monday, he separated water and the heavens.
Day 3 was a Tuesday, he made land and plants and it was good.
Day 4 was a Wednesday, he made the Sun and Moon and it was good.
Day 5 was a Thursday, he made Water animals and Birds (so he made some dinos on day 5) and it was good.
Day 6 was a Friday, he made land animals and land dinos and Man and it was good.
Day 7 he rested (sabbath falling on Saturday) "Very Good".
So even God doesn't like Mondays... he never said it was good...

Interesting thing about this order is that it doesn't go against the scientific timeline of earth's earliest years (except for dinos if Day 6 isn't one really long day). i.e. The earth was void and without form.  The atmosphere was a gassy mess until the waters and heavens separated.  The earth was covered with water initially.  The sun and moon did not show-through to the earth during all this because of the density of the atmosphere.  Then came plants, then came animals of the sea, then animals of the land.  Then Man.  It really does follow pretty accurately with what science says the order was.  Unless the movie Pandorum is true...

Number 2-Genesis, Jesus in Matthew, and Paul in both Corinthians and Ephesians all say the same thing: "a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife to become one flesh." (if those three say exactly the same thing, it's important).

Flesh dies.  But the soul does not.  Christ didn't die on the cross to save our flesh, he died to save our souls.  Therefore, once you or your spouse die, the living flesh is allowed to remarry. Actually, Genesis says "it is not well for man to be alone."  Matthew 22:23 talks to this specific question actually.  What Christ tells the Sadducees is that when he raises us from the dead, it will not be to the exact same life again.  It will be to an immortal life. No need for procreation when we're already created, no need for marriage there.

Number 3- You might be referring to a few times when Paul is telling women to subject themselves to their husbands.  Note he does not say to all men.  But to their husbands. 

The marriage is defined in Ephesians as one of the woman submitting as the church submitted to Christ and the man taking care of the woman and loving her as Christ loved the church.  Christ died for the church right?  He took care of the church at every point in his life and even after his life.  That's actually a pretty strong requirement to the husband to do everything in your power and more and be willing to die for your wife. 

Women, all you have to do is help the man (Eve was created as a helper) to be the head of the family.  You don't have to die for him.  But he has to be willing to die for you.

This video is pretty great on this concept of the husband/wife relationship. http://www.austinridge.org/videos/series-ephesians

If you were instead referring to 1 Corinthians 14, Paul was telling the Corinthians that their worship services are a mess.  He chews-out the men and women alike that they need to be quiet in the service and stop trying to prophesy to everything.  At the time, you must remember women were not educated on the scriptures or even literate.  So every time someone would say something in-reference to something from the scriptures, someone (maybe a woman, maybe a man) would chime-in with "What do you mean? I don't understand what you're talking about!"  He's telling the women of the congregation in Corinth "If you have questions, don't stop the worship service, ask your husband when you get home. Husbands, make sure you explain these things to them before they come to church." 

I don't think I've ever seen a nun question a priest in church... Actually, Catholics never say anything in church that isn't in one of the prayers or songs.  Evangelicals on the other hand have to throw-in "AMEN!" or "Hallelujah" every time they agree with something or the pastor gets nervous...

I believe it was a pope who changed this.  Why?

I have to say that I agree with your concern LB about the organization, but I also view it from this perspective as well.

My issue with the Catholic Church is the root cause of the coverup and the systematic coverup. 

It is "too big to fail".  Just like the Penn State Football Program, just like the Boy Scouts a few years back, just like schools and summer camps and little leagues and hockey leagues, and all the other ways where kids are being molested and then the powers decided to cover it up.  The cover-upper decided it was more important to protect the organization than to protect the children.  In most countries, it's been swept under the rug for hundreds of years, but that's because it was accepted in an array of organizations. 

Catholics in the American church and the Irish church led the way to reveal these incidents and to reveal the coverup. 

Matthew 18:6 Christ says that "whoso shall offend (scandalize in the greek) one of these little ones, it is better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck and be drowned in the depth of the sea."  I think God is going to get his vengeance on people who "scandalize" children.  In the meantime, the law should have them. 

I really think Pope Francis is a tremendous step in the right direction.  The man has turned-down all the trappings of his office, he turned down the luxuries.  He's a true Jesuit.  I think some heads are going to roll among the cardinals, bishops, etc.  But unfortunately, I worry that it won't be enough to completely rid the clergy of all of the nonsense because there aren't enough people who want to become priests and the 1.whatever Billion Catholics need a priest at the altar on Sunday or they won't show up for church.

The church is told by Christ to Forgive seven times seventy times.  And they should, but they do have a responsibility to protect children too.  Forgive, but that doesn't mean the offender should not be held accountable for his actions during his earthly life.

No, Saturday's still the Sabbath (day of rest) but Sunday is a day of rejoicing and worship for Christians because that's the day Christ was raised from the Dead.

Man! You guys got a lot done while I was sleeping! 

Thanks to everyone who contributed so far! Keep 'em coming!

Ryan, now that you're awake...

What's the state of the Catholic Church in China?

Don, it's a pretty amazing time to be a Catholic in China. For our first year here, we were attending mass at Nan Tang (The South Cathedral) in Beijing.  It's a building that has been around (in one form or another) since the 1400's.  It's been knocked over and burned down twice during that time, as a result of political turmoil and/or natural disasters.   This is a Catholic Church with mass in Chinese every day, 2 weekend Chinese masses and 2 weekend English masses, with Chinese priests presiding.  It is a strong and vibrant international community.  It's very interesting that there are basically 2 parishes using the same building!  There is a Chinese parish and an International Parish, serving the needs of each community.

Recently, we started attending mass at the Canadian Embassy, which is much closer to our home.  Because the Mass is held inside the embassy, only foreign passport-holders are allowed to attend.  (this is a rule from the Chinese Government.  It prevents people from entering the embassy and requesting asylum. It applies to almost every "unofficial" Christian Church here in  China as well. )

A few weeks ago, Father Joseph dropped a bomb on us after mass:  The Bishop of Beijing is now in official communication with Rome!! This is very cool, as I believe he is a CPA-Appointed Bishop.  So, it seems that we might be entering into a period where the Government is "loosening up a little" and ceding more religious authority to Rome.

Our daughter (who we adopted from China in 2007) is preparing for her First Communion on June 1st.  We feel lucky and blessed that she will have this opportunity here... very special for her!

There is also a large network of nuns here... doing the very same thing they do everywhere in the world:  Being the loving hands of The Church to those most in need.  Over the winter we travelled to HeBei province to visit "The House of Dawn" which was a large care facility for special needs children (and adults)  What was so cool about this facility is that it was growing and thriving... very openly.  In the past, facilities like this would not be allowed to operate openly.  It was seen as a loss of face for the local government... that they had to rely on outside help to care for their citizens.  So, very slowly, and on a very grassroots level, the Church is expanding and making a difference. It is an amazing thing to experience.

Well, that's about it.  If you've got any specific questions, fire away!

Thanks.  But, if the authority rests with the office, and not the man, why does it matter who the man is?  Apologies if I'm misunderstanding Don.

Great stuff!

Great stuff for sure!

Can you talk some about the experience of native born Chinese Catholics?

Are they mostly cradle Catholics, or are they converts. If converts, are there problems within the family over their conversion?

At the risk of putting words in people's mouths, you can tell from some of the posts on this thread that Catholicism in the West is often viewed as repressive, and the Church as an authoritarian and corrupt throw back.  Is the Church viewed this way in China by Chinese Catholics?

What was the reaction to Pope Francis' election as a non European Pope?

What is the Marian tradition within Chinese Catholicism? Is there a particular Chinese devotion to Mary?

The CPA appointed bishop in communion with Rome is huge. Is there also an underground bishop? If so, is there a conflict regarding authority in the diocese?  Do diocese as we understand it here even exist in China?