Gearwhore/himself Group - FULL (Page 3)
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2007-01-07 6:00 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Member 62 | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL I made my first log entry today ... what a cool tool! Tomorrow is the official kickoff of my training for 2007. I have definatly loaded my calender for this year and really set some high goals. I have a great training schedule put together, a great support group and I feel confident this will be 'THE YEAR'. Until next time ... R . F. P. ( relentless forward progress) |
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2007-01-07 7:32 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Veteran 269 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Using the logs is really a great tool. It's a good way for Adam and other supporters to monitor progress and offer up advice for what you can do to make things better. It also keeps you in check and you can always look back to see what you did. Way to get on board. Yeah you have a huge schedule and being able to log all your training is going to put you a step ahead. Have a good week training boys, lets all log those minutes in!!! |
2007-01-08 12:53 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Member 20 | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Adam I have a bike question for you. I just bought a Tri bike and while I know it is not the best it is what is within my price range for now. Having not spent a lot of time riding since I was a kid I know that equipment has changed a lot. Because of my age and somewhat lack of flexibility I know that I need to set the handlebars a little higher to be in an aero position. How much time should I spent working on getting comfortable in the position? Likewise I have never ridden with clipless pedals. My thought is that because of my lack of experience that a trainer is the way to go to learn the things I need to and be able to get comfortable on the Bike. To that end I got a Kurt Kenitic trainer. I figured this should allow me to spend time riding and learning to use the pedals and gain some comfort with the aero positon. I am wondering how much time do you think I should spend a week doing this given my conditions and limitations at this point? I know that riding on the road will be different and require some other skills that the trainer cannot provide but that learn time will come soon enough. Any thoughts here will help. Thanks Guys Fred |
2007-01-08 1:14 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Veteran 269 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL I'm sure Adam will offer you some great advice. I took mine tri bike out for the first time this weekend. It felt so much nicer to be outside than on the trainer. It was also my first time with clipping in and out of the speed play pedals and needless to say I took two spills forgetting I cant just take my feet of the pedals when I go to stop. If you can try to get outside and enjoy the bike! |
2007-01-08 1:26 PM in reply to: #646372 |
Veteran 308 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL whoopekats - 2007-01-08 11:53 AM Adam I have a bike question for you. I just bought a Tri bike and while I know it is not the best it is what is within my price range for now. Having not spent a lot of time riding since I was a kid I know that equipment has changed a lot. Because of my age and somewhat lack of flexibility I know that I need to set the handlebars a little higher to be in an aero position. How much time should I spent working on getting comfortable in the position? Likewise I have never ridden with clipless pedals. My thought is that because of my lack of experience that a trainer is the way to go to learn the things I need to and be able to get comfortable on the Bike. To that end I got a Kurt Kenitic trainer. I figured this should allow me to spend time riding and learning to use the pedals and gain some comfort with the aero positon. I am wondering how much time do you think I should spend a week doing this given my conditions and limitations at this point? I know that riding on the road will be different and require some other skills that the trainer cannot provide but that learn time will come soon enough. Any thoughts here will help. Thanks Guys Fred Fred - Your first instincts are correct. You should get the bars up so that you're not too "folded up" in the aero position. I had some problems with my hips early on when I first go my aero bike and tried to ride aero all the time. That angle between your torso and your thigh can cause a little hip impingement and pain until you get used to it, and even after that if you're position is too aggressive. So, what to do? You have a few choices to get that done: (1) assuming the stearer tube (top of the fork that comes through the headtube and headset) is not cut short, you can move the stem up; (2) you can get a new stem with a shorter reach, steeper angle, or both; (3) you can stack spacers under the armpads; and (4) you can tilt the aero bar upwards a bit, which doesn't actually raise the bars, but raises your hands and keeps your upper body more upright. I think some combination of these would be good for you, at least initially. Aside from the actual bike set up, I would recommend sitting up in the saddle a lot at first. When you're on the trainer, this is no problem at all. Just sit up, put your hands on top of the bars or armpads, and ride the bike like a normal road bike. This decreases that hip angle, prevents the impingment, and makes for a comfortable ride. On the trainer, that is no problem, and since you already have one, you're set. Be careful with this on the road though, because on a true time trial (TT) bike, the brakes are on the ends of the basebar and the shifters are on the ends of the aero bars. When you ride on the road, you need to have your hands close to the brakes most of the time, so again, your instinct is correct to learn this on the trainer first. When you do take it out on the road, try switching back and forth between full aero, and a position where you have your hands all the way out to the ends of the basebar right next to the brakes. Either position is pretty safe, allows you to stop quickly, and gives you some relief from the aero position. Now, how do we get to a more comfortable place for racing? You need to be able to stay in the aero position for 90-95% of 15 miles (your chosen race distance this year), or about an hour to an hour and a half. Much like anything else with triathlon, this is just a matter of making progressive improvements, little by little. Given current fitness and experience, I would say that might mean initially getting on the bike for 15-20 minutes on the trainer, and spending 5 minutes warming up, 1 minute aero, 3 minutes sitting up, and alternating like that until you've reached 20 minutes, do a nice light cool down and get off the bike. Gradually increase total ride time, time in aero position, speed, intensity, etc., until you're comfortable going about 30 miles total (or the peak of your training program), with a big chunk of that in the aero position. That project may well take you 6 months or more, even right up until the race in September. Just give it time, this is a whole new sport, and riding a TT bike is a sport unto itself. For the clipless pedals, shifters, brakes, etc. - again, practice on the trainer. Spend 3-5 minutes at the beginning or end of each session clipping in and out of the pedals. At first, look at what you're doing so that your brain and feet make the connection. Once you feel okay with that, start practicing clipping and unclipping without looking. It's really important that you get totally comfortable clipping/unclipping without looking, as you will be required to perform that function repeatedly on the road, while braking, watching traffic, keeping your head and eyes up, maybe negotiating around other cyclists, and maintaining control over the bike. So, figure this out before you take the bike out for a lot of rides. And when you take it out for the first time, start in a parking lot with not too much traffic so that you can get the hang of it all. One last note, then I'll stop rambling. TT bikes handle a little differently than road bikes. Your weight is forward on the bike (intentionally), and this makes a TT bike feel "squirrelly" and hard to control at first. It's a good idea, if you have the time and inclination, to go ride in open and uncongested areas to get used to that feeling. Stear sitting up, shift and brake sitting up, carve some tight turns, hold a straight line (try to find lane lines or whatever to practice this), and then repeat all in the aero position. It doesn't take too much time and it'll make the bike more fun and easier to ride later. All for now, happy training.
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2007-01-08 1:31 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Member 62 | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL To get use to clipping in and out of pedals: set your bike up on your trainer and simply click in and out of the pedals, one foot at a time. You will find that after awhile your pedals will be alot easier to get in and out of ( simple wear and getting use to the proper foot/ankle movement). As far as the aero position goes, I think that would depend on how comfortable you are with your " general " cycling skills. Riding in the aero postion is not the same as riding in the drops on conventional bars. The aero position can make bikes feel almost twitchy in regards to movement. Also I go by the motto that you want to train how you are going to race. If you think that you are going to ride the biggest portion of your "A" race in the aero position than by all means get very comfortable with it. Have you been properly " fitted" to your bike in the aero postion? If so than personally I would train in the aero position as much as possible. One thing that will help is gaining flexability in your back. Start on a good stretching routine daily and you will feel the difference pretty quickly. Remember you want to be as comfortable as you can on the bike while being as efficient as possible so that your run will be a little easier to endure. |
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2007-01-09 5:06 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Veteran 308 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Okay group, here goes, the dreaded lactate threashold test. I stole this from TH3_FRB's group (and edited a bit), but he stole some of it from Mike Ricci, and at this point this is all pretty much common knowledge anyway. So, this is the test to determine heart rate training zones, and will make your heart rate based pacing much more accurate and reliable. Brian is definitely ready for this (probably should have already done it), AJ is itching to get this done, Fred I think has a heart rate monitor but may need some more time on the bike before attempting this test, Keith I think still needs a Heart Rate Monitor (HRM), HKDan is still persona non grata. THIS IS HARD, it HURTS, and I'm not saying you should do it if you're not ready. But if you feel capable, this is the best way to get training intensity figured out. Okay, here goes: Heart Rate Training: As triathletes, we collectively have a problem of being too motivated to push our limits. Chances are even an "easy" run is typically at too high of an intensity to serve the intended purpose (developing base or recovery) unless we have something to guide us. Enter the heart rate monitor... there is no cheating when that display strapped to your wrist is telling you exactly how hard you are really pushing. These tests are very intense, so easy training for a couple of days before and after is a good idea. You want to be relatively fresh and well rested so you can give it your best effort. Once you have estimated your LT heart rate for both bike and run we can establish appropriate HR training zones for each. In fact, BT now has a tool for you to plug in your LT value and it calculates your training zones automatically. Training Zone Descriptions (from Mike Ricci, D3Multisport) Zone 1 – This is considered aerobic and a very easy effort. So easy, that you feel guilty. Zone 4–5a - This training zone is called LT, or lactate threshold. This is where you are pushing HR right up against that LT estimate. Zone 5b - This zone is still LT but it is above LT and it hurts like heck! It could mean five to ten beats above LT. Most athletes will do very little training in this zone. An example would be shorter track intervals with long recoveries. Too much training here RAPIDLY leads to over training according to Joe Friel, author of the Training Bible. When to use Zone 5b: Not often, but if you do, this would be at the end of a long hard set. Zone 5c - In this zone you are going all out for a very short period of time. According to Friel, this zone, in general, has limited benefit for the multisport athlete. The exception is those who are lacking the capacity to develop muscle mass or recruit fast twitch muscle fibers. Good luck with this test everyone, and try to enjoy the suffering (especially knowing that MANY people on BT regularly go through the pain of the LT test). |
2007-01-09 6:06 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Member 62 | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Great timeing on the HR training post. I am planning on doing the LT test for the bike next Tuesday evening( 16) and then will probably recover and do the run LT test the following Friday (26). I might even upgrade my HR monitor by then. I currently have an outdated Polar Target. Well time to go get my bike workout in .... sucks because I have to use my trainer because of the falling temps. It has finally started to get cold here in Indiana. |
2007-01-09 6:19 PM in reply to: #648371 |
Veteran 308 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL westwoodrnr - 2007-01-09 5:06 PM Great timeing on the HR training post. I am planning on doing the LT test for the bike next Tuesday evening( 16) and then will probably recover and do the run LT test the following Friday (26). I might even upgrade my HR monitor by then. I currently have an outdated Polar Target. Well time to go get my bike workout in .... sucks because I have to use my trainer because of the falling temps. It has finally started to get cold here in Indiana. Good call. If you decide to do both, just take it easy and recover well on Wednesday and Thursday. The upper end polars have speed sensors for use on the bike and an optional cadence sensor as well. You can find some pretty good deals on the S520 and 620 right now. If you really want to go nuts (like me, hence the nickname Gearwhore), get the Garmin 305 GPS with HR, pace/distance displays, and speed/cadence sensors for the bike. Now THAT is a training tool for the training dork! |
2007-01-09 6:41 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Member 16 San Clemente, CA | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL So I went for my first bike ride out on the road. Definetly a tough transition from the stationary bike at the gym to the open road. Its been way to long since I have used this thing. I had to fill up the tires and literally wipe off the cob webs. The scenery at the gym usually contains more spandex but I think I may have lost control of the bike if I had to turn my head. I thought they say something about once you learn how to ride a bike you always know how to ride a bike. Who are those people and obviously they havent gotten back on one after about 5 years of not riding. Any suggestions getting out of the gym and onto the bike without having to feel like I could kill myself on one of these downhills? Should I start with a mountain bike on the trails or keep to the side streets in the neighborhood (hoping to not take out the 2 year old on his razor)? Signed Dazed and Confused |
2007-01-09 8:14 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Member 62 | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Dear Dazed & Confused, I've got one word for you ... relax. If this was your first ride in awhile don't I am sure it might have felt abit " woobly' but you will get more comfortable, smoother and dare I say faster with time. By all means if you can get out on the road do it. There is no replacement for actually putting in saddle time while on the road. Are you going to be training to do XTERRA type triathlons or road triathlons. If XTERRA than definatly I would jump back on the single track horse and get use to it again but if you are going to concentrate on road tri's than I would stick to riding the roads. Take it easy and have fun with it, remember how much fun it used to be when you were 12 years old and terrorizing the neighborhool? Capture that feeling agian. ( Remember there is cash return on my 2 cents worth ) R. F. P. |
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2007-01-09 9:54 PM in reply to: #648418 |
Veteran 308 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL keith slattery - 2007-01-09 5:41 PM So I went for my first bike ride out on the road. Definetly a tough transition from the stationary bike at the gym to the open road. Its been way to long since I have used this thing. I had to fill up the tires and literally wipe off the cob webs. The scenery at the gym usually contains more spandex but I think I may have lost control of the bike if I had to turn my head. I thought they say something about once you learn how to ride a bike you always know how to ride a bike. Who are those people and obviously they havent gotten back on one after about 5 years of not riding. Any suggestions getting out of the gym and onto the bike without having to feel like I could kill myself on one of these downhills? Should I start with a mountain bike on the trails or keep to the side streets in the neighborhood (hoping to not take out the 2 year old on his razor)? Signed Dazed and Confused Yep, Brian said it right, there's no replacement for time in the saddle. I know I normally have a suggestion for drills, or practice, or whatever, but in the case of getting used to riding a bike again, there's nothing better than just riding. Have fun with it. |
2007-01-11 10:10 AM in reply to: #631977 |
Member 20 | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL New question for you guys. Swimming has not ever been an issue for me but I have seen this Total Immersion technique and see that there is some difference in the techniques I was taught. What are your thoughts on this. I have read some of the other places on this site where this has been discussed. I have also been on TI's site and am intrigued. I am just curious about how everyone here is approching this and what they feel about this new technique. One of the reasons I ask is that at this point I am covering 25 meters in about 21 strokes give or take 1 or 2. The idea of being able to cover the same distance with less and yet being quicker makes a lot of sense to me in terms of energy saved during a race. I as just wondering what everyone thinks about this. Fred |
2007-01-11 2:10 PM in reply to: #650537 |
Veteran 308 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL whoopekats - 2007-01-11 9:10 AM New question for you guys. Swimming has not ever been an issue for me but I have seen this Total Immersion technique and see that there is some difference in the techniques I was taught. What are your thoughts on this. I have read some of the other places on this site where this has been discussed. I have also been on TI's site and am intrigued. I am just curious about how everyone here is approching this and what they feel about this new technique. One of the reasons I ask is that at this point I am covering 25 meters in about 21 strokes give or take 1 or 2. The idea of being able to cover the same distance with less and yet being quicker makes a lot of sense to me in terms of energy saved during a race. I as just wondering what everyone thinks about this. Fred I have mixed feelings on the TI school of swimming (having browsed the book, not read it thoroughly, take this with a grain of salt). I understand the desire to be more efficient in the water, and I don't disagree with the basic technique aspects, but I do feel that there is a bit of an over-emphasis, and perhaps a false promise, in the idea that you can get a lot faster without getting significantly stronger and fitter. Or to say it a different way, I think there's a point at which technique is no longer the limiter, and strength, fitness and endurance need to be the focuse. I think if you can already swim about 1:40 per 100 meters, then TI methods probably won't make you a lot faster, and in fact the main limiting factor is probably muscle strength and muscular endurance (assuming techique is basically sound). If you're slower than that, chances are that technique is an issue, and should be addressed before working on specific aspects of swimming fitness. For those of us who were coached as kids and feel comfortable with our stroke technique, I am not typically in favor of radical changes unless there is something really weird about the stroke that may cause shoulder injuries. I also somewhat disagree with the swim golf thing where everyone is constantly focusing on stroke count. I can get from one end of the pool to the other with 12 strokes, but so what, I'm gliding half the time. When I increase my turn over rate with the same strong pull but less glide, I go 15-17 strokes/length, and about 15 seconds faster. So I think there is a point of diminishing returns, and you need to experiment to find that point. Personally, I don't think 21 is all that high, but you should try pulling harder with more glide to see if you can maintain the same speed with fewer rotations. Generally, anything that improves technique is good, just don't get caught up in the promise that you can swim effortlessly and save all your strength for the bike and run, it simply isn't true. |
2007-01-11 11:11 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Member 20 | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL ah, the words of experience. Even us old dude's need a bump occasionally. |
2007-01-12 6:08 AM in reply to: #631977 |
Veteran 269 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Probably the most important question here... What is everyones favorite beer? |
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2007-01-12 7:56 AM in reply to: #631977 |
Member 20 | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL I lean toward Microbrews. I also brew my own occasionally and may be bottling a batch this weekend. I have to see if its ready. You can also find a Fat Tire or something similar in the fridge occasionally. "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" to quote Ben Franklin. |
2007-01-12 10:17 AM in reply to: #651870 |
Veteran 308 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL whoopekats - 2007-01-12 6:56 AM I lean toward Microbrews. I also brew my own occasionally and may be bottling a batch this weekend. I have to see if its ready. You can also find a Fat Tire or something similar in the fridge occasionally. "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" to quote Ben Franklin. Now here's a discussion I can get on board with . . . I have situational favorites, and really, who can chose just one. Coors Light (yeah, I like macro-brews, so what) at any sporting event, Guinness in the winter and at the local pub with my wife for dinner, Sunshine Wheat in the summer sitting outside, Imperial in Costa Rica sitting on the beach (coolest beer label on earth, IMO), Pacifico with Mexican food, basically any local brew where I'm travelling, and maybe most importantly, free beer anytime and anywhere. |
2007-01-12 10:46 AM in reply to: #631977 |
Veteran 308 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Not to interrupt the beer thread, which is of critical importance, but I have two quick thoughts: (1) HKDan is not really participating. I sent him a PM on the side, and he hasn't responded. He could always jump back in later, and that would be fine, but I'm thinking of reopening the group to add one more participant. I think we could all benefit from a full group of active BT'ers. Any thoughts/objections? (2) I asked my buddy Ryan (himself) to post on the group thread and basically just be part of the group. He and I train together a lot, he's a training dork like me, he has an excellent coach and has some good ideas/suggestions from that, we basically have opposite strengths (he's a better runner, I'm a better swimmer), and his season focus is a little different than mine with pretty much exclusively long course races (3-4 half iron races this year). Anyway, he always has good suggestions and thoughts, so he would be an asset for everyone here, me included. Cool? If not, tough sh!t (I kid, I kid). Hopefully he'll post to the thread today, and he can start throwing out some suggestions for training (and maybe even answer the most recent question about TI swimming). All for now, as you were. |
2007-01-12 11:09 AM in reply to: #631977 |
Extreme Veteran 643 Connecticut | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Hi Guy's Saw you might have an opening in your group coming up. I must admit I have been following your group and have added into my training link home page. I have been getting great motivation from your site and discussion. You are all people like me... I am 36 years old married with two kids and have a stressful job. I decided in September (Moved from Europe to US) I was going to start training after a nine year break. I was too fat and drunk too much German beer and had an addiction to Chocalate Munchkins from Dunkins. (Now down to 6 a week instead of 6 a day) I am currently with another mentor group but am getting little motivation....Let me know if you have an opening and I will add more details about me. Suggest you check out my home page on BT to see my goals aspirations. If no opening then I will continue to moitor your group if that is OK....(Promise I am not going to track you down if you say no and stab your rabbit ala Glen Close in Fatal Attraction) Good training all... JG |
2007-01-12 12:35 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Expert 683 Denver | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Like Adam had mentioned, he and I train together pretty regularly and are always bouncing different thoughts and ideas off of one another, whether it's something to do with our training, what we've read, or what we've seen as working (or not) in someone else's training (from pros to others on BT). So with that in mind he asked me to join and contribute where I can, so long as that's alright with everyone else. I figured I might as well do the background thing too so here goes: Name: himself / Ryan Story: I'm 30 years old (31 in a month) and have always been active growing up, playing the three main sports of baseball, basketball, football, and then messing around with others like soccer, tennis, etc. I played volleyball for 2.5 years in high school, took a break for about 8 years and then played for another 3 years until I was having a lot of problems with my knees and back so I decided to give it up. That was about the same time that I started thinking about doing a triathlon and ended up doing a sprint in the summer of 2005. I could have done one before then, but basically had to learn how to swim and started from barely being able to go 25 yards and working on building up from there. After that race my only thoughts were about how I could do better next time and I kept training since then. I like the balance of the sports, enjoy the training, and being able to keep seeing improvement along the way. Family Status: Single with no kids, but do have two dogs - Whiskey (5-year old Chesapeake Bay Retriever) and Tacoma (4-year old English Shepherd). Current Training: This is my second year of being coached and I'm coached by AJ Johnson of D3 Multisport. My focus for this year is the 70.3/HIM distance races and all my training is geared towards that. Because swimming is my weakest discipline, I did a swim block in November and am still focusing on that, but have moved through a cycling block and am starting a running block. Last Year's Races: 7 cycling time trials, 5 aquathons (swim/run), 3 sprints, 1 olympic, 1 half ironman. I qualified for US Age Group Nationals but didn't go to race because I was working through a running related injury. This Year's Races: 5 aquathons throughout the summer, Napa Valley Half Ironman - 5/5; Galena Sprint (IL) - 5/19; 5430 Sprint - 6/17; Vineman 70.3 - 7/22; 5430 Long Course (HIM) - 8/12. My goal for the season is to qualify for the 70.3 Championships, which I'd have to do at the Vineman 70.3., thereby making it my A race for the season. If I don't qualify, I'd consider another late season race or a marathon. Weight Loss/Nutrition: I don't have a problem with weight loss, but will readily admit that on a separate yet related topic, nutrition is a definite shortcoming that I'm working on. I'm just lucky enough that I can eat whatever I want and burn through it without any recourse. That said, the twinkie and bacon diet isn't the best fuel for triathlons (who knew?) so I'm continuously working on improving that and upgrading my food choices. It's a definite work in progress, but getting better. Favorite Beer: Really, how could this get left out? I'm about as far from a beer snob as possible and pretty much prefer the macro-brews of Coors Light and Bud Light. |
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2007-01-12 12:54 PM in reply to: #631977 |
Veteran 269 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Before I go off on a tangent about all the "minor" stuff.... Beer: I will drink almost any type of beer and like it. I do have to say I love a darker beer though. Guinness is up there on the chart. I had the privelage of going back to England to see my family over the summer and loved almost every beer they have there. One of my favs was "wife beater" Stella Artois and I even developed a liking to the Strongbow cider (you can even go half and half with Guinness with that). If I am partying I will cut back to coors or miller lite but that isn't often. Micro beer is a plus too, there is a place here call McKenzies and they make a hell of a beer! Adam- My vote is to cut HK loose and if he decides to come back we will all let him in and help him to accomplish his goals. James sounds like a pretty good guy and the fact he has been following the log already kind of puts him on the same page as everyone so there is not need to get up to pace with him. It seems like he will fit in well. As for Ryan I say we vote him out... oh wait you said tough **** we have to take him anyway. I guess I can live with that ;o) In all seriousness, between the advice from you as well as Ryan the two of you will have us turned into machines by the time race time is here. I personally have been thankful to get all the imput both of you have offered. Maybe even let luv2ride in from time to time on the nutritional and biking aspect goes. Just a suggestion. Anyone else have suggestions? James, if Adam gives you the ok welcome to the group bud, it will be nice having 7 people fully dedicated to the team (including Adam and Ryan)! Everyone else, if I don't hear from you have a great weekend. |
2007-01-12 1:43 PM in reply to: #651054 |
Expert 683 Denver | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Gearwhore - 2007-01-11 1:10 PM whoopekats - 2007-01-11 9:10 AM New question for you guys. Swimming has not ever been an issue for me but I have seen this Total Immersion technique and see that there is some difference in the techniques I was taught. What are your thoughts on this. I have read some of the other places on this site where this has been discussed. I have also been on TI's site and am intrigued. I am just curious about how everyone here is approching this and what they feel about this new technique. One of the reasons I ask is that at this point I am covering 25 meters in about 21 strokes give or take 1 or 2. The idea of being able to cover the same distance with less and yet being quicker makes a lot of sense to me in terms of energy saved during a race. I as just wondering what everyone thinks about this. Fred I have mixed feelings on the TI school of swimming (having browsed the book, not read it thoroughly, take this with a grain of salt). I understand the desire to be more efficient in the water, and I don't disagree with the basic technique aspects, but I do feel that there is a bit of an over-emphasis, and perhaps a false promise, in the idea that you can get a lot faster without getting significantly stronger and fitter. Or to say it a different way, I think there's a point at which technique is no longer the limiter, and strength, fitness and endurance need to be the focuse. I think if you can already swim about 1:40 per 100 meters, then TI methods probably won't make you a lot faster, and in fact the main limiting factor is probably muscle strength and muscular endurance (assuming techique is basically sound). If you're slower than that, chances are that technique is an issue, and should be addressed before working on specific aspects of swimming fitness. For those of us who were coached as kids and feel comfortable with our stroke technique, I am not typically in favor of radical changes unless there is something really weird about the stroke that may cause shoulder injuries. I also somewhat disagree with the swim golf thing where everyone is constantly focusing on stroke count. I can get from one end of the pool to the other with 12 strokes, but so what, I'm gliding half the time. When I increase my turn over rate with the same strong pull but less glide, I go 15-17 strokes/length, and about 15 seconds faster. So I think there is a point of diminishing returns, and you need to experiment to find that point. Personally, I don't think 21 is all that high, but you should try pulling harder with more glide to see if you can maintain the same speed with fewer rotations. Generally, anything that improves technique is good, just don't get caught up in the promise that you can swim effortlessly and save all your strength for the bike and run, it simply isn't true. I think most everything Adam said there is right on, but I'll add my perspective. When I was starting swimming, all signs form this site pointed to the TI method so that's essentially what I used and most likely would still use if it weren't for some additional input. I was getting to the point that I was so caught up in the glide that it was at the expense of the speed of my turnover. Watching me swim at one of the aquathons, a comment stating as much was made and (knowing I want to be faster in the water) basically said that if I want to be faster, then I need to swim faster; basically meaning increase my turnover rate and practice that by doing 4x25 yards at the end of your swim set as fast as you can, but with sufficient rest in between each 25. However, doing that to increase the turnover rate doesn't do anything if you're still struggling in the water, in which case drills and efficiency are key. In that regard, the drills that TI offers are very effective in establishing body balance, how to roll/rotate, etc. TI comes across as mainly for lap swimmers in a controlled, pool environment that allows you to glide more easily. However, the start of an open water triathlon is anything but a calm and controlled environment. You're swimming with people on all sides of you and have to contend with waves/chop, current, wind, and a host of other factors. So if you're trying to calmly glide on every stroke, you may end up putting out more effort because the current or chop isn't allowing you to do so. In this case TI loses ground in favor of a higher turnover that is probably more effective and efficient so you can keep pulling forward. At the end of the day, it's what's comfortable and where you are as a swimmer that should determine what technique to use. If I were to do it over again, I'd probably do it the same way: Learn the drills and technique from TI, then adapt to a higher turnover. Regarding swim golf, it's not only about having the lowest stroke count, but whatever stroke count plus time gives you the lowest score. There's currently a discussion about this in the main forum, and one of the posters linked to Rich Strauss's site where he discusses it in pretty good detail: http://www.cruciblefitness.com/etips/swimtechnique1.htm There are plenty of other good links and articles on that site that are worth looking at as well. ETA: Here's another swim related article from Mike Ricci's site. As it pertains to swim golf, pay attention to point #4 at the bottom of the article where he specifically mentions low versus higher stroke count. Lots of other good articles here too. http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/swimvolume.html Edited by himself 2007-01-12 2:13 PM |
2007-01-12 2:37 PM in reply to: #652195 |
Veteran 308 Denver, CO | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL jamesG - 2007-01-12 10:09 AM Hi Guy's Saw you might have an opening in your group coming up. I must admit I have been following your group and have added into my training link home page. I have been getting great motivation from your site and discussion. You are all people like me... I am 36 years old married with two kids and have a stressful job. I decided in September (Moved from Europe to US) I was going to start training after a nine year break. I was too fat and drunk too much German beer and had an addiction to Chocalate Munchkins from Dunkins. (Now down to 6 a week instead of 6 a day) I am currently with another mentor group but am getting little motivation....Let me know if you have an opening and I will add more details about me. Suggest you check out my home page on BT to see my goals aspirations. If no opening then I will continue to moitor your group if that is OK....(Promise I am not going to track you down if you say no and stab your rabbit ala Glen Close in Fatal Attraction) Good training all... JG Alright, Glen Close, you're in. We'd prefer you look and act a lot more like Sharon Stone (in the crazy broad category), but we'll take Glen Close in a pinch. Go ahead and post a bio so that we have the full back story on you and triathlon, and what beer(s) you most enjoy. And I would suggest politely excusing yourself from the other group so that they can add someone else if they want to. Maybe even send a PM on the side to the mentor explaining your reasoning. As far as HKDan, in case he reads this, we're not giving him the boot. We're just adding another active member. HKDan can jump back in if he wants, especially now that we effectively have 2 mentors. Speaking of which, I'm going to edit the group name to Gearwhore/himself Group. Everybody add jamesG to your friends list, and each other if you haven't already. |
2007-01-12 5:23 PM in reply to: #652610 |
Member 20 | Subject: RE: Gearwhore's Group - FULL Ryan and James huh? I think that is way cool. I'm down with it even though the decision is already made but I don't really care, I think it makes us a stronger group and that is what is really important here. This sense of team that is developing here in terms of the support that is coming from here. I love this. Helps keep me focused However, on the beer snob portrait>>> I have developed a taste for this wonderful elixer from many years of testing and sampling. There is some Austrailian beer that we just can not find here that comes from Queensland that is mind blowing. Some of the beers I have made have been extemely satisfiying. Beer Snobbery, on the contrary dear sirs, Beer Conisure. By the way welcome you guys, I look foward to your imput. Good Weekend to all and Good Luck to Adam. |
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