Aaron Davidson's Group -- Closed. (Page 30)

Blue Seventy...I think it is because I'm not used to having *any* material on my shoulders when I swim in the pool...and I need to remember to really take my time putting it on (working it up over my legs, hips and waist), so there isn't any pulling downwards. The first few OWS in the spring remind me of the feeling. We just lost the last of the ice on the local ponds - so I'm thinking I've got a couple of months still of swimming indoors.

Nice job Matt in all three legs.  But that is one heck of an impressive swim.  Are you addicted yet?

Incredible race Matt.  That was your first tri?  Wow.  Great job.

Ray, I gotta hear the story behind that avatar picture.

Matt,

that is a great race! smokin fast times in all legs! great job and congrats! you are well on your way!

X2 on needing the story behind Ray's avatar.

So - after the long (for me) run yesterday inside, I realized why I did the run inside. It was slightly crappy weather outside, but I could have sucked it up and done it, but I was so nervous about not having access to water and nutrition while running that I decided it would be safer to run inside. That being said - I didn't eat anything during the whole run (probably should have, but started about 40 minutes after lunch and the Y doesn't allow food in the workout area) and I grabbed a gulp or two of water every 25 minutes (which is how I broke the time up so I didn't lose my mind).

I don't (currently - could be encouraged to get this if necessary) have a hydration belt so my thought process on running outside is: I could stash a water bottle and some shot blocks/gels/Gu somewhere on the route and take a quick break when I pass them, I could run a loop so I go past the house around halfway through the run and grab water/food or I could suck it up and not stop at all. What is the appropriate distance/time passed that you should focus on? Can I get away with running for 2+ hours with nothing? Most of my runs around 1 hour or less - so I don't think I need to worry for those - it's the long ones that I don't have the experience with. Any guidance would be appreciated!

You are probably going to hear that anything under two hours, you don't need nutrition for.  I personally think this is like finding your LT by subtracting your age from 220.  It's an average, but doesn't always work.  I've found that anything over an hour, I better be eating.  I talked with my doctor about this, concerned I may have some medical issue (diabetes, liver, etc....).  He told me everyone is different in how much glucose they can store, and I would just have to eat sooner.  Once I started eating on rides and runs over one hour my stamina really increased.

Two hours will be a good place to start, but adjust it to fit your individual needs.  Hope this helps.

Two hours with nothing is probably not a good idea. I think 90min is really the cutoff. I have one of those hand held bottle holders. Slightly added weight, which made a difference early on, but now I am used to it, and I can easily swap from hand to hand without losing my stride. Something along these lines:

Ultimate Direction

Amphipod

For me I have done 2hrs, but it sucks. I find that by sipping on a Gatorade like drink every 15min, my runs are of a much highly quality. I can do 90min easy, but feel that my performance drops off. I rarely take anything under an hour. But if I am going for 60+min I will take the bottle. I only drink a very small amount, but it helps... at least in my head.

Edited by aarondavidson 2010-03-29 10:08 AM

I agree with Aaron under an hour I drink almost nothing.  I recently got a hydration belt and have LOVED it for my last three long runs.  I honestly don't even notice it's on.  Before that I would do my long run as a series of out and backs (3-4 miles each loop) with water/hammer waiting in my mailbox.  Not the most elegant solution, but it worked for me.

Thanks for the input on the wetsuits. I'm still undecided...just don't know if the extra $100 is worth it for ME to get a full. I read a few more threads and Aarons links - but...

anyways - thanks again everyone!

Question about IM training.

So far I have been following the 36 week plan on Trifuel.com.  I am on the 11th week and have liked it so far.  I miss a few workouts here and there, but I think the distances and intensities are just what I need right now.  My worries about the plan are towards the end.  The weekly long runs go 11, 13, 18, 13, 17 miles right before the taper.  That seems insane to me, jumping from 13 to 18.  I would prefer a longer and more gradual build.   The long bikes are similar, hovering around 60-70 miles, then jumping to 90 twice before the taper.  This doesn't seem like near enough time in the saddle to me. 

I have some alternative plans for the long weekend rides and runs, but plan on keeping the weekday routine.   I really like what the plan has me doing during the week.  I think it is a good mix of duration, frequency, and intensity.  Any plan I do will need some good intensity workouts, or I am afraid I would lose interest quickly.  Am I just being too intimidated by the 140.6 distance or do the long bike/ runs seem insufficient to you too?

Edited by ray6foot7 2010-03-30 7:48 AM

Hi everyone... sorry I've been out of touch for several days.  It was a crazy weekend with lots of family stuff (birthday parties, sleepovers, etc.).  And I was off yesterday and just trying to keep the kids at bay.

Ray, I agree that a jump from 13 to 18 miles is insane.  I always stick to the 10% rule to avoid injuries.  And if you stick to that, you would only increase from 13 to 14.3.  Seems excessive and risky, considering you'll only be a few weeks out from your race.  An injury that late in the game would really suck.

Regarding wetsuits... I've always used a sleeveless, so I can't compare/contrast vs. a full suit.  However, I love the sleeveless and found that it keeps me warm enough even during my first race of each year, which is an ocean swim in late May where the water temp is 60 or below (57 one year).  Just make sure you get lots of practice swims in with the westuit on before any races... they can feel very restrictive and cause you to panic if you're not used to it.

Regarding hydration on the runs... Last year I got a fuel belt that holds one 16oz drink.  I've gotten very used to it and it's nice to have gatorade to take small sips on during longer (2 hour) runs.  I wouldn't want to go more than an hour without some form of hydration and/or nutrition.

Ray, that run jump does seem extreme.  I'm doing 12-13 ish long runs right now, and I can't imagine attempting an 18.  Can you ask the people who designed the plan?  There's always reasoning behind why they set the plan up the way they do, so maybe they can shed some light on it.

In the end, all plans are general by definition, so as self-coached athletes we have to make changes as required by our lives/schedules/interests/goals/limiters, etc.  But we don't want to change things so much that we screw up the flow of the plan per the plan designers goals, so I'd ask if possible.

I have zero experience in long course training, but the 140.6 distance is intimidating.  At the same time, everyone I talk to and read says if you're going to make a mistake, better to err on the side of undertraining, but of course not by too much!

Now stop stalling on the avatar story...

X2 (Since I have nothing to add to the training questions...)

I'd agree on the jump...seems a bit extreme. Maybe through a 15 in there in between and just back it up one week...usual I'm not a coach caveats apply.

<edit> throw...what was I thinking...sheesh </edit>

Edited by bfoyle 2010-03-31 10:17 AM

I gotta give you all huge props.  Last Friday I REALLY didn't want to run.  But then I thought about the work you've all done this winter, and the inspiring race reports, and remembering Aaron finishing Timberman after that nasty crash.  I put my sneakers on and just told my body to shut up and run.

It might  be a little melodramatic, but thanks for the support you guys have given.

x2 from Warren...knowing someone is going to be looking at my logs gives me the motivation to get it done and knowing that everyone has already worked so hard makes it rewarding!

on another note - Warren - have you washed away yet? A friend of mine lives near Manchester and his kids school has been canceled for the second day in a row due to flooding...we got some rain (about 3 inches in the last 3 days), but you all have been hammered!

Yeah, we are underwater.  A group (gaggle, flock?) of ducks have taken up residence in the pond that used to be my backyard, much to the dismay of my dog.  The kids are loving it though.  Thankfully the house and basement are dry.  Lots of roads are closed, so driving is tricky.

Yesterday's run was actually kind of fun.

itsallrelative_Maine - 2010-03-29 9:20 AM X2 on needing the story behind Ray's avatar.

So - after the long (for me) run yesterday inside, I realized why I did the run inside. It was slightly crappy weather outside, but I could have sucked it up and done it, but I was so nervous about not having access to water and nutrition while running that I decided it would be safer to run inside. That being said - I didn't eat anything during the whole run (probably should have, but started about 40 minutes after lunch and the Y doesn't allow food in the workout area) and I grabbed a gulp or two of water every 25 minutes (which is how I broke the time up so I didn't lose my mind).

I don't (currently - could be encouraged to get this if necessary) have a hydration belt so my thought process on running outside is: I could stash a water bottle and some shot blocks/gels/Gu somewhere on the route and take a quick break when I pass them, I could run a loop so I go past the house around halfway through the run and grab water/food or I could suck it up and not stop at all. What is the appropriate distance/time passed that you should focus on? Can I get away with running for 2+ hours with nothing? Most of my runs around 1 hour or less - so I don't think I need to worry for those - it's the long ones that I don't have the experience with. Any guidance would be appreciated!

One of the things that was suggested to me several times in training for my marathon last year was to know what my sweat rate was. Virginia gets pretty hot and humid in the summer and I thought I had a high sweat rate, but when I tested my sweat rate a couple times, I found it was fairly normal.  The general rule of thumb for fluid consumption during your runs: You should take in 6 to 8 ounces of fluid every 20 minutes during your runs.  During longer workouts (90 minutes or more), some of your fluid intake should include a sports drink to replace lost sodium and other minerals (electrolytes).  When I ran my long runs over 2 hours I had to resort to stashing a bottle along my route, that worked well considering I only did these super long runs every now and then.  Other times I ran a 4 mile trail loop and stashed a bottle that I would grab every loop to drink from.  Today I had a 1.5 hour run and found a gas station that was mid route that I stopped at and got a gatorade and ran with that the second half of my run.  I've made it work so far without a hydration belt or hand bottle, but I am considering the hand bottle that Aaron recommended as he said, it can improve the quality of the workout. 

Know Thy Sweat Rate
The most accurate method for determining your personal fluid needs is to take the sweat-rate test, which will help you develop an individualized strategy for fluid replacement.

The Test
1) Weigh yourself nude right before a run.
2) Run at race pace for one hour, keeping track of how much you drink (in ounces) during the run.
3) After the run, strip down, towel off any sweat, and weigh yourself nude again.
4) Subtract your weight from your prerun weight and convert to ounces. Then add to that number however many ounces of liquid you consumed on your run. (For example, if you lost a pound and drank 16 ounces of fluid, your total fluid loss is 32 ounces.)
5) To determine how much you should be drinking about every 15 minutes, divide your hourly fluid loss by 4 (in the above example it would be 8 ounces).
6) Because the test only determines your sweat losses for the environmental conditions you run in that day, you should retest on another day when conditions are different to see how your sweat rate is affected. You should also redo the test during different seasons, in different environments (such as higher or lower altitudes), and as you become faster, since pace also affects your sweat rate.

It is equally important to make sure you are hydrated pre-run, the few days leading up to the long run and just before your run.  Also, make sure you have carbs before too as well as having a quality recovery meal within the 30-60 window post workout.  I guess this applies to all workouts, especially longer ones.  I like to make a smoothie after my workouts and have a quality recovery meal as well.