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2010-04-26 9:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Hahaha, my puppy ran over to my laptop when he heard someone screaming "c'mon baby!" or to that effect!


phxphotog - 2010-04-26 4:13 PM
WittyCityGirl - 2010-04-26 12:25 PM How do we make it a requirement that all races end with a slip in slide?!


Mine this weekend did. Check out the video here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JevFgbf6vQM

I was so slow, everyone was drunk when I finished. I had fun though.


2010-04-26 9:23 PM
in reply to: #2818222

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
phxphotog - 2010-04-26 6:23 PM Could you guys look at my data from my Garmin from the bike and run for last weekends Olympic? My HR seems high for the 15 weeks I trained. Here's the data:


At first I was going to say it didn't look that high to me.  But then I looked at some of your logs from last week and was blown away with how low your average HR is during some of your runs. 

April 17th:
3.61 miles21m 52s/Mi
Min HR: 85
Avg HR: 125
Max HR: 160

April 18th:
3.75 miles19m 08s/Mi
Min HR: 96
Avg HR: 140
Max HR: 164


that's an amazingly low HR for those kinds of times, at least in my eyes.  I average 165-168 just to do a 20minute 5k, you're around 5:06minute/miles averaging 140bpm and 6:03min/miles at 125bpm!!!! WOW!

So based on those kinds of data it does look like you were way higher than what I would expect.  That's if I'm reading your data correctly.  You were around the 13-14min/mile pace during the run with a 155bpm heart rate?  Either you burned yourself out on the bike (based on your pace it doesn't look like that), you didn't hydrate/eat enough during the bike and it showed in the run, or you could be fighting a cold that hasn't shown itself yet.

For me, a high HR shows 1 of 2 things... cumulative fatigue or that I'm about to get sick.
2010-04-26 9:27 PM
in reply to: #2818459

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
zionvier - 2010-04-26 8:23 PM
phxphotog - 2010-04-26 6:23 PM Could you guys look at my data from my Garmin from the bike and run for last weekends Olympic? My HR seems high for the 15 weeks I trained. Here's the data:


At first I was going to say it didn't look that high to me.  But then I looked at some of your logs from last week and was blown away with how low your average HR is during some of your runs. 

April 17th:
3.61 miles21m 52s/Mi
Min HR: 85
Avg HR: 125
Max HR: 160

April 18th:
3.75 miles19m 08s/Mi
Min HR: 96
Avg HR: 140
Max HR: 164


that's an amazingly low HR for those kinds of times, at least in my eyes.  I average 165-168 just to do a 20minute 5k, you're around 5:06minute/miles averaging 140bpm and 6:03min/miles at 125bpm!!!! WOW!

So based on those kinds of data it does look like you were way higher than what I would expect.  That's if I'm reading your data correctly.  You were around the 13-14min/mile pace during the run with a 155bpm heart rate?  Either you burned yourself out on the bike (based on your pace it doesn't look like that), you didn't hydrate/eat enough during the bike and it showed in the run, or you could be fighting a cold that hasn't shown itself yet.

For me, a high HR shows 1 of 2 things... cumulative fatigue or that I'm about to get sick.


I think you're looking at it wrong. I actually think that those days may have been hiking and the time is PER mile not total. My HR at most bike and run training is between 150 and 160.
2010-04-26 9:32 PM
in reply to: #2818007

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Kath2163 - 2010-04-26 3:16 PM I took my bike out for a quick spin and already I can tell that I will probably need a new saddle.

The one that is on there now has a lot of cushion at the nose (up front) and I am not sure that is going to work for me. I have a Specialized Jet (pic below) on my road bike which seems ok.
Anybody have any suggestions?  It would be nice if the front was just cut out.


I use a Specialized Toupe, which is more of a road bike saddle than a tri saddle.  However i love it and when I do get a tri bike may just use it. 
2010-04-26 9:38 PM
in reply to: #2769226

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
phxphotog,

I don't think your HR is that bad, its a little high but its an olympic distance and it should be a tad high.  Also, everyones' HR is different and its hard to judge each individual unless you are looking at their logs for a few weeks.
2010-04-26 9:41 PM
in reply to: #2769226

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Penn State,

Here is the elevation profile for the bike of IMSG, I think it adds up to about 6500 of gain:



2010-04-26 9:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
phxphotog - 2010-04-26 8:27 PM
I think you're looking at it wrong. I actually think that those days may have been hiking and the time is PER mile not total. My HR at most bike and run training is between 150 and 160.


oh yeah, you're right.  Geez, here I thought you were superman!   You could have just let me believe it

Then looking back at things, your heartrate doesn't seem that high to me.
2010-04-26 11:13 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
furiousferret - 2010-04-26 8:41 PM Penn State,

Here is the elevation profile for the bike of IMSG, I think it adds up to about 6500 of gain:



That's some serious climage. I think I just created a new word.
2010-04-27 4:54 AM
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2010-04-27 4:56 AM
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2010-04-27 5:00 AM
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2010-04-27 8:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!

PennState - 2010-04-27 6:00 AM
furiousferret - 2010-04-26 10:38 PM phxphotog,

I don't think your HR is that bad, its a little high but its an olympic distance and it should be a tad high.  Also, everyones' HR is different and its hard to judge each individual unless you are looking at their logs for a few weeks.
Yes, everyone's HR is different. There are many variables that affect even within the individual. For me, 160 bpm is a very string run effort, for another person it is Z1 and easy as pie. HR training can be fun, but its also easily misunderstood.

I think switching from HR to training with power and pace has helped me improve more so far this year than if I was still training by HR.  I still monitor HR as it can indicate, over time, that it is time to test again.

I still think HR is a good way to train, especially during the first few years of trainig, but it is very individualized.

2010-04-27 8:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!

Speaking of bike saddles, I am probably going to replace mine soon too.  It is the stock one that came with my Trek, I believe it is a Bontrager.  I have heard good things about Cobb saddles that advertise here.  Has anyone tried them?

During my swim this morning I was thinking that this is the first time that I have been a part of a mentor group that most of the posts weren't about swimming! 

2010-04-27 10:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
kenj - 2010-04-27 7:49 AM

Speaking of bike saddles, I am probably going to replace mine soon too.  It is the stock one that came with my Trek, I believe it is a Bontrager.  I have heard good things about Cobb saddles that advertise here.  Has anyone tried them?

During my swim this morning I was thinking that this is the first time that I have been a part of a mentor group that most of the posts weren't about swimming! 



I know a lot of people around here sell their old saddles that they don't like on craigslist for pretty cheap.  It can be a good way to try different ones out without spending $100 each time.

I'm not very swim focused because the time required to gain a few minutes is better spent on my running and biking this year.  I also come from a pretty decent swim background (grew up with a lagoon in my backyard and was 10 miles from the ocean so I grew up surfing too (which by the way is a great alternative to just swim training because it takes a lot of muscle to paddle yourself out into those waves), plus I was on the swim team back in high school.  I'm looking to just maintain my MOP swimming ability this year and then next winter I'll focus more on swimming for the 2011 season.
2010-04-27 10:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
kenj - 2010-04-27 7:47 AM

PennState - 2010-04-27 6:00 AM
furiousferret - 2010-04-26 10:38 PM phxphotog,

I don't think your HR is that bad, its a little high but its an olympic distance and it should be a tad high.  Also, everyones' HR is different and its hard to judge each individual unless you are looking at their logs for a few weeks.
Yes, everyone's HR is different. There are many variables that affect even within the individual. For me, 160 bpm is a very string run effort, for another person it is Z1 and easy as pie. HR training can be fun, but its also easily misunderstood.

I think switching from HR to training with power and pace has helped me improve more so far this year than if I was still training by HR.  I still monitor HR as it can indicate, over time, that it is time to test again.

I still think HR is a good way to train, especially during the first few years of trainig, but it is very individualized.



Training with HR is good to start with since most people are not familiar with what a pace feels like.  But over time you learn what paces you can go at for each workout.  Then HR becomes a great indicator of your progress over time as you see your average HR get lower for any given pace. I use it as an indicator of progress, but more importantly I use it as an indicator of if I'm overtraining or undertraining. If my HR begins to get higher for a given pace over the last week or two I know it's time to back off a little and let my body recover.  If my HR begins to be lower for a given pace, I know I can start doing that workout harder next time, or that I can go real hard the following day.  Plus, in addition it can be an early indicator that I might be fighting a cold, which takes the form of a higher HR, which in return makes me take it a bit easier and lets my body fight the cold before it really effects my training.
2010-04-27 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!

Good Morning All,

I have 700 X 21 tires on my tri bike.  My road bike has 700 X 23 and had 700 X 25 (I think) on them when I purchased that bike.  Is there anything I need to know about the 700 X 21?  They have zero tread on them.  Here is the link to the tire http://www.specialized.com/au/en/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=42279

Do smaller tires have less traction?



2010-04-27 10:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
phxphotog - 2010-04-26 10:13 PM
furiousferret - 2010-04-26 8:41 PM Penn State,

Here is the elevation profile for the bike of IMSG, I think it adds up to about 6500 of gain:



That's some serious climage. I think I just created a new word.


I like how they felt the need to send you over that same mountain twice.  I'll be interested to see your Garmin data from the ride after the race.  It's hard to compare graphs to others because of the different X/Y axis sometimes.  I'm really interested in knowing how long and what % grade that nearly vertical line around mile 45 and 90 is.
2010-04-27 10:51 AM
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2010-04-27 10:57 AM
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2010-04-27 11:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!

PennState - 2010-04-27 11:51 AM Training with HR, power, pace, RPE all have pros and cons. Recognizing the limits of each system is key. I know very accomplished triathletes who use different systems to train with. My personal experience is that I used HR training for the first 3 years and now use RPE, pace. I have a computrainer and have trained with power before as well. The only thing that really bothers me is when a person says one technique is FAR superior to another. Depends on the person imho.

But it can be entertaining to watch the threads on this subject. 

2010-04-27 11:09 AM
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2010-04-27 11:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Kath2163 - 2010-04-27 9:47 AM

Good Morning All,

I have 700 X 21 tires on my tri bike.  My road bike has 700 X 23 and had 700 X 25 (I think) on them when I purchased that bike.  Is there anything I need to know about the 700 X 21?  They have zero tread on them.  Here is the link to the tire http://www.specialized.com/au/en/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=42279

Do smaller tires have less traction?



It depends on what pressure you're running the tires at.  But in general, I'd say yes, smaller tires will have a smaller contact patch with the ground and therefore less traction.  Often, a smaller tire will be run at a higher PSI. 

This of it like this, if someone weighs 100lbs and was supported by only one tire at 100psi (pounds per square inch), then that one tire would deform under it to make one square inch of it be in contact with the ground to hold that persons 100lbs of weight.  Now if you made that tire 120psi, that tire would not need as much surface area to hold that weight.  It would now only need a 0.83 square inch in contact with the ground to hold that 100lbs.  Less rubber on the ground = less traction.  It also = less rolling resistance, but ONLY on a perfectly smooth road.  Once you get on a surface that's not perfectly smooth which is probably most streets we all ride on (not many get a freshly paved pure blacktop road to ride on), that extra pressure actually begins to make that tire bounce slightly, which takes away traction.  I'm not saying bounce like an inch off the ground, but very small amounts... it adds up and takes away traction.  That is why if you read information on it you'll find that running a really high psi is actually NOT faster than running a moderate one.  Too much traction slows you down with friction, too little traction doesn't transfer your power to the pavement and slows you down.

We use two tires obviously, in an equally distributed weight situation with 2 tires at 100psi, you'd have 0.5 square inches in contact with the ground on each tire, but technically we put something more weight on our rear tire than our front (at least cyclists do on road bikes, not sure about triathletes in aero on a tri bike), I think it's around 60/40 split in weight distribution? (someone correct me if I'm wrong).  So I actually run a slightly higher PSI on the rear tire compared to the front tire.  I weight ~155lbs, I run 95-100psi on the front and 105-110psi in the rear on 700x23s.  I actually used to run some 700x19s at 120-130psi, but found once I moved to the 23s it was a more comfortable ride and just as fast.  The difference in speed was probably unmeasurable for me if there was a change in speed, but the comfort level was noticeable.
2010-04-27 11:37 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
PennState - 2010-04-27 11:51 AM Training with HR, power, pace, RPE all have pros and cons. Recognizing the limits of each system is key. QUOTE]

Well said Fred!
2010-04-27 11:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
zionvier - 2010-04-27 12:12 PM
Kath2163 - 2010-04-27 9:47 AM

It depends on what pressure you're running the tires at.  But in general, I'd say yes, smaller tires will have a smaller contact patch with the ground and therefore less traction.  Often, a smaller tire will be run at a higher PSI. 

This of it like this, if someone weighs 100lbs and was supported by only one tire at 100psi (pounds per square inch), then that one tire would deform under it to make one square inch of it be in contact with the ground to hold that persons 100lbs of weight.  Now if you made that tire 120psi, that tire would not need as much surface area to hold that weight.  It would now only need a 0.83 square inch in contact with the ground to hold that 100lbs.  Less rubber on the ground = less traction.  It also = less rolling resistance, but ONLY on a perfectly smooth road.  Once you get on a surface that's not perfectly smooth which is probably most streets we all ride on (not many get a freshly paved pure blacktop road to ride on), that extra pressure actually begins to make that tire bounce slightly, which takes away traction.  I'm not saying bounce like an inch off the ground, but very small amounts... it adds up and takes away traction.  That is why if you read information on it you'll find that running a really high psi is actually NOT faster than running a moderate one.  Too much traction slows you down with friction, too little traction doesn't transfer your power to the pavement and slows you down.

We use two tires obviously, in an equally distributed weight situation with 2 tires at 100psi, you'd have 0.5 square inches in contact with the ground on each tire, but technically we put something more weight on our rear tire than our front (at least cyclists do on road bikes, not sure about triathletes in aero on a tri bike), I think it's around 60/40 split in weight distribution? (someone correct me if I'm wrong).  So I actually run a slightly higher PSI on the rear tire compared to the front tire.  I weight ~155lbs, I run 95-100psi on the front and 105-110psi in the rear on 700x23s.  I actually used to run some 700x19s at 120-130psi, but found once I moved to the 23s it was a more comfortable ride and just as fast.  The difference in speed was probably unmeasurable for me if there was a change in speed, but the comfort level was noticeable.


Great post! Thanks for the info...i really never understood this
2010-04-27 11:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
PennState - 2010-04-27 11:57 AM Yeah I know we haven't talked much about swimming. How are you folks feeling about your swim? Swimming is my weakest event. I'm not a bad swimmer, just not super strong. I do try to swim a fair amount as I think poor swim fitness leads to a bad bike and run split. My thinking is that we come out of the water having spent too much energy and it affects the bikw leg the most. What are the groups thoughts on swimming?


Swimming is by far my weakest....but then again i can usually find my bike really easily so i guess it has its benefit
I think i have a lot more to gain from biking and running than i do from swimming, and my knowledge base is larger for those two...so i tend to talk about those more.
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