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Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED (Page 30)
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 2014-07-12 4:53 PM in reply to: GoldenSprocket |
Extreme Veteran  1190    Silicon Valley |  Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSEDOriginally posted by GoldenSprocket I have a swim question for the group(Stuart  ). I had my first lesson last Monday and we worked on EVF or high elbow catch. Tuesday and Wednesday my shoulders were pretty sore. I expected it, I don't think I've every swam that hard, but it did get me thinking. Recently a friend of mine who is a very good swimmer was complaining after a recent mile swim race that his Lats were sore. Am I pulling with the wrong muscles? I feel like I am pushing water back with my shoulder muscles. Should I be pulling my elbows in to my body with my Lats. In other words should I have the feeling like I would in my Lats as if I was doing a wide grip pull up? I hope I described that correctly. Any thoughts? Kevin hard to answer specifically without seeing your stroke but generally speaking, I seldom to never have sore Lats. I can understand with the drills you are doing the sore shoulders. When I am really pushing it my soreness comes from my biceps and triceps. While I understand the value in the high elbow catch as a teaching tool be careful to not go overboard. Too high an elbow can be inefficient as well as cause the hand to dive to deep, causing the head to drop, etc etc. Bottom line, NO I don't think you are doing anything wrong. But as you gain experience and better form expect the soreness to move down from the shoulder to the upper arm. What you really want to achieve is generating power from the whole arm. The tennis ball drill is good for this but it may be premature for you to try that just yet. The idea is to swim with a tennis ball in each hand. This does three things. First you lose the pull from the hand. This will really help you feel the water with the rest of the arm. Second, it forces you to generate power from the rest of the arm not only because you don't have your hands to use but also because you have to force the ball down against it's natural buoyancy. Third it will speed up the recovery because that same buoyance once you clear the stroke forces the hand to the surface more quickly. I really only recommend this for experienced swimmers with good form. Should you ever try it be prepared for some very strange looks/comments from the other swimmers. BTW - I tend to do a bit more upper body work on the weight machines than a lot of triathletes, around here at least. I find it helps both in the swimming and the cycling. Here are my favorites which, not coincidentally, are ones very common among swimmers. Incline Chest Press Cable Machine Overhead Triceps Extension Cable Machine Biceps Curl Seated Overhead Shoulder Press Standing lat pulldowns Straight-Arm Pulldown Keep at it and you will be fine. |
| 2014-07-12 4:58 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Kevin BTW - a little trick to keeping the elbow up (but don't tell your instructor because he/she won't approve). Try to have the hand enter the water thumbs first with your palms facing out. When you turn your hand that way the elbow automatically turns up. Just remember to flatten out the hand immediately as you begin your pull. Edited by Stuartap 2014-07-12 4:59 PM |
| 2014-07-12 5:17 PM in reply to: Stuartap |
Champion 7163  Verona WI--Ironman Bike Country! | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Originally posted by Stuartap Originally posted by SSMinnow Suzy let me see if I can be of some help here. Generally people who drop their head to low not only over rotate when breathing but they also mess up their body alignment at the same time. At a minimum it forces the hips to drop when you lift your head to breathe which also drops the legs. Not good…but fixable. It would be unusual for someone who is carrying their head too low to be doing just that with the rest of the mechanics working fine. The most common cause is short arming your stroke. Putting the hands in the water too close, thereby diving the hands too deep. Your hands spear the water, dive deep and the head follows. First thing you need to do is reach a little farther on your stroke. Get your hands out in front of you and flatten them out quickly for a longer pull. This should help a lot with the head position. When you breathe it should be a slight roll above the hips and not a rotation of the body. Practice with a pull buoy high up on the thighs. It will minimize the roll as you get used to a longer stroke. Fins might accomplish the same thing, keeping your legs up, body in better alignment. Also watch where your hand placement is with respect to the centerline of your body. If you are crossing that imaginary line that runs straight up your spine and bisects your head, or even close to that, the position of the arm will force the head over and down. Concentrating on stretching the stroke out a bit will help with this as well. Do you breathe on both sides or just one? This issue is far more common with people who only breathe on one side. If that’s the case, now is the time to work on bilateral breathing. The advice to look a yard in front of you is a good suggestion. If it is feeling odd it may be you are carrying too much tension in the shoulders and neck. Don’t worry about turn over. Try to relax and DO NOT try to muscle it. As you know, form and rhythm are far more important than strength. Fortunately in the laundry list of things that could go wrong with a swimming stroke, this is one of the easier ones to fix. Try lengthening out your stroke and watch your hand placement and let me know if that helps. Originally posted by Stuartap Happy to field any questions and help any way I can. Anyway, thanks for taking this wayward soul back into the fold. Looking forward to getting back to where I was and better. Welcome back Stuart. You've been missed!!! Ok, you offered. Head position in the water is way too low, like inches below the water level. It causes me to over rotate to breathe. big issue. I was told to simply look about 1 yard ahead as opposed to straight down, but it feels so awkward. Advice? Thanks for all the great feedback. I was actually told a while ago that my hand entry was too long and as a result, my elbow would hit the water before my hand. I worked on shortening it a bit and that problem went away. I do know that I tend to have a slight cross over when I breathe, although much less than before. I don't bilateral breathe much at all. One last thing, I did increase my stroke rate quite a bit to eliminate a dead spot in my stroke. Had the head position before that though. I'll work on crossover the next time I am in the pool (which won't be for two weeks). We leave for Alaska in the morning! |
| 2014-07-12 5:26 PM in reply to: SSMinnow |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Suzy as I told Kevin above, turn your palms outward with your thumb entering the water first and it should eliminate the elbow hitting the water first, even if you extend your reach a bit. Then concentrate on NOT having the had cross over the mid-line. Unless you are actively pushing your hear down those two things should help the problem quite a bit. Have a great time in Alaska! |
| 2014-07-12 5:59 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Well, I picked up a 70.3 world championship slot. Did not think that was going to happen. Now we have to do some major life juggling to try to make the logistics work. I hope I haven't just thrown away a big chunk of $. Race was good. I felt great in the water. I was surprised that I came out in 35 minutes. It felt faster than that. Bike was interesting. I worked harder on the bike than I think I ever have in the past. It was strange however because there was a significant group riding dynamic going on. There were about six of us all riding at very similar speeds. I think that everyone (except one guy who was obviously drafting on purpose) was trying to stay legal distances and ride according to the rules. It was difficult because we were so evenly matched. A lot of leap frogging, getting passed, then soft pedaling so I wouldn't drift up in to the draft zone. Very mentally as well as physically taxing. The draft Marshall was in our vicinity for significant amounts of the day. I must have seen the same motorcycle with us ten to twelve times. Obviously the group dynamic was noticed. Three of the people eventually ended up getting drafting penalties and that spaced us out a bit. I am comfortable saying that I obeyed the rules as well as possible given the density of the course. Run was hard. I had burned my legs up a lot more than usual on the bike. I actually felt great from a cardiovascular stand point. My pace was slow enough that I never felt really taxed. However, every time my brain would tell my legs to go faster, nothing was happening. This was a very unusual thing for me..... I was hoping to run 1:27-1:28 and smoke the final segment but I had to reset my priorities. I ran the whole way. I did not let the pace slow on the second half. Overall, I think it was a much more evenly paced triathlon across all three events. Yes, my run was a bit slower. But my bike and swim were a bit faster. I'm going to call it progress. Edited by wannabefaster 2014-07-12 6:08 PM |
| 2014-07-12 6:10 PM in reply to: wannabefaster |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Nice job, Randy. Thanks to everyone who followed along and gave me moral support. It sure makes it harder to quit (or easier to continue) when you know 'people' are watching. |
| 2014-07-12 8:03 PM in reply to: wannabefaster |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Congrats Jason! Another epic adventure on the horizon. |
| 2014-07-13 11:56 AM in reply to: slornow |
504 | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Awesome job Randy and Jason. You guys are seriously fast. Did a Midnight Moonlight in Vermont 4 mile race last night. It was the coolest race ever. I brought a headlamp but decided to use it sparingly. A mix of dirt and paved roads, some BIG elevation losses and gains, and some beautiful moonlit VT scenery. I smoked a bunch of guys on the final few climbs to get 1st AG and 7th OA. It was hard to see who or what was in front to know when to attack. On the final hill I came across a number of racers spread out and I just picked them off one by one. Definitely doing this one again. |
| 2014-07-13 3:15 PM in reply to: skibummer |
Master 3205 ann arbor, michigan | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Originally posted by skibummer Awesome job Randy and Jason. You guys are seriously fast. Did a Midnight Moonlight in Vermont 4 mile race last night. It was the coolest race ever. I brought a headlamp but decided to use it sparingly. A mix of dirt and paved roads, some BIG elevation losses and gains, and some beautiful moonlit VT scenery. I smoked a bunch of guys on the final few climbs to get 1st AG and 7th OA. It was hard to see who or what was in front to know when to attack. On the final hill I came across a number of racers spread out and I just picked them off one by one. Definitely doing this one again. Congratulations. Excellent work. Again, there are some seriously fast folks in this group. Proud to be associated with all of you  That sounds like an incredibly cool race. One that I would love to do, given the opportunity. |
| 2014-07-13 3:24 PM in reply to: wannabefaster |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Question for the group. Anyone familiar with a race in Aurora, CO called My Way or the Tri Way? It is a three event race where you can do a tri in just about any order: S/B/R, S/R/B, R/B/S, R/S/B, B/R/S. B/S/R or a two event options - S/B/S, B/S/B, B/R/B, S/R/S, R/B/R or R/S/R. Since I am not really running much the S/B/S or B/S/B options are perfect for me. I posted in the CO state forum but thought I would check with you guys. Thanks, |
| 2014-07-13 6:19 PM in reply to: #4996375 |
Member 836 North Augusta, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED 45 miles on the bike today. Friend of mine doing IMChoo, so she had to ride 100. Since she had company the first 55 miles, I joined her for miles 55-100. Good grief was it hot! Car said 100+ degrees when we got in. Jumping in the 70 degree Savannah River afterwards was a joy. |
| 2014-07-13 6:25 PM in reply to: #5025115 |
Member 836 North Augusta, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED |
| 2014-07-13 7:10 PM in reply to: skibummer |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Originally posted by skibummer Awesome job Randy and Jason. You guys are seriously fast. Did a Midnight Moonlight in Vermont 4 mile race last night. It was the coolest race ever. I brought a headlamp but decided to use it sparingly. A mix of dirt and paved roads, some BIG elevation losses and gains, and some beautiful moonlit VT scenery. I smoked a bunch of guys on the final few climbs to get 1st AG and 7th OA. It was hard to see who or what was in front to know when to attack. On the final hill I came across a number of racers spread out and I just picked them off one by one. Definitely doing this one again. Nice job! Sounds like a really cool race. Stuart-have not heard of the race but it sounds like you can "customize: the race to your strengths. Nancy-good work.....much hotter than last weekend. I'm home from a whirlwind weekend of traveling to/from my race on Saturday then the beach. Was able to get in a nice 25 mile ride on the road bike this morning just riding...always fun to do that. Heavy week of training ahead.......need to get to bed early tonight. |
| 2014-07-13 8:22 PM in reply to: slornow |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Randy this does sound like an interesting event. I am struggling with my two options with no run B/S/B or S/B/S. At first blush S/B/S seems like the obvious choice...except! Most start with the swim because they can wear a wetsuit. Anyone doing leg two or three in the water is not. In looking at the race results from past years a large majority of the participants will be doing S/B as their first two events. So would I be better off going B/S/B and staying clear of the crowds? Any and all thoughts are welcome! |
| 2014-07-14 8:21 AM in reply to: skibummer |
Member 2098 Simsbury, Connecticut | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Originally posted by skibummer Awesome job Randy and Jason. You guys are seriously fast. Did a Midnight Moonlight in Vermont 4 mile race last night. It was the coolest race ever. I brought a headlamp but decided to use it sparingly. A mix of dirt and paved roads, some BIG elevation losses and gains, and some beautiful moonlit VT scenery. I smoked a bunch of guys on the final few climbs to get 1st AG and 7th OA. It was hard to see who or what was in front to know when to attack. On the final hill I came across a number of racers spread out and I just picked them off one by one. Definitely doing this one again. Such an awesome group! Where in VT was this race? Sounds like something I might put on the calendar for next year!! |
| 2014-07-14 8:22 AM in reply to: Stuartap |
Veteran 976 New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Great racing everyone. Sounds like everyone kicked some serious butt. I'm back in the real world after vacation for 4 days (that's about as long as I get with work being busy). Not sure where I am right now. I relaxed on my race schedule this year to spend more time with the kid who turns 3 this Friday. I passed on a race this last weekend to take a few days off with the fam and now we have a commitment on the next race I wanted to do on 8/10. It makes it hard to train with no foreseeable races in the future and I've had a couple little injuries pop up with my knee and foot so it just derails things even more. I have one race already signed up for in September which I've done twice before and I love but if that's my only other race this year that makes a whopping 2 races this whole year. I know people say "triathlon will always be there" but man is it hard to accept that fact. We'll see. Have to get the knee treated and but at least I'm kind of enjoying hitting the gym as of late at lunch even if the SBR slacks off a bit. Sorry for the pity party there, hope everyone has a good start to the week! |
| 2014-07-14 8:37 AM in reply to: jonD81 |
Expert 4924 Middle River, Maryland Silver member | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Wow...I've been gone a week and lots has happened here! Re: RoadID...well, I have one and religiously wore to make the body identification easier ("if found on the side of the road, please return to:"...). I lost it to Poseidon about 10 strokes into my Oly back in May. In the market for a new one. Re: TdF: those guys are unbelievable...just absolute monsters. During yesterday's stage they were hitting over 55 mph on the descents. @Randy: A belated Happy Birthday!!! @Stuart: great to have you, and I hope your return to running goes well. Slow and steady. I have about a thousand swim questions. @Randee: you SO need to get that saddle!! @Jason: congrats on qualifying for WCs...that is just awesome. I was traveling last week (in Austin...cool place) but was swamped with work and life so I only got in three days of any training: a horrible swim session on Monday, an easy 5 AM run on Thursday, and a great 42 mile bike ride yesterday morning. I haven't taken four days off in a week when not injured in probably ten years. I'm starting a new job next week and my wife got a big promotion, so there's lots of excitement around here. I thought summer was for relaxing...sheesh!!!! |
| 2014-07-14 9:01 AM in reply to: jmhpsu93 |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Mike-congrats on all the excitement....NICE! One of my buddies had some bad luck at the race I was doing on Saturday. He got in the lake a few minutes before the start to get a practice swim in. Got kicked in the arm and lost his Garmin 310XT........no chance for recovery given depth and water clarity. So, he was bummed. Then after the race he tells me that his bike computer wouldn't work during the bike leg......raced totally blind. I know I would have the most difficult time guaging my pace on the run. At that point it hurts regardless of pace and my Garmin basically keeps me pushing it even though I feel like I'm at or over the edge. Crappy start to the week here. Our case management software/data has been corrupted and we are not able to access our schedules or files currently. Computer guy is working on it but dang its frustrating. Fortunately, internet is fine. What a pain! |
| 2014-07-14 12:53 PM in reply to: slornow |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED It's one of those days....made it 15 laps in the pool before a thunderstorm shut it down. Doesn't happen for well over a year (and we get alot of thunderstorms) then twice in one week! |
| 2014-07-14 2:25 PM in reply to: skibummer |
Extreme Veteran 990 Collierville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Originally posted by skibummer Awesome job Randy and Jason. You guys are seriously fast. Did a Midnight Moonlight in Vermont 4 mile race last night. It was the coolest race ever. I brought a headlamp but decided to use it sparingly. A mix of dirt and paved roads, some BIG elevation losses and gains, and some beautiful moonlit VT scenery. I smoked a bunch of guys on the final few climbs to get 1st AG and 7th OA. It was hard to see who or what was in front to know when to attack. On the final hill I came across a number of racers spread out and I just picked them off one by one. Definitely doing this one again. Sounds like an awesome race, good job! I'd definitely do something like that. It has been a well-deserved rest day for me! After last week, I'm feeling a little trashed and worn out, so I'll go to the gym for a little while later, but nothing serious. This is a recovery week for me, woohoo! Next weekend, the GF and I are headed to Chattanooga for a IM-race preview; we plan on riding the bike course and at least one loop of the run, so I'm glad I'm resting up some this week! |
| 2014-07-14 2:26 PM in reply to: WoodrowCall |
Extreme Veteran 990 Collierville, Tennessee | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Oh, and did anyone else notice the 20% grade at the end of today's stage of the TdF? That's madness... |
| 2014-07-14 2:30 PM in reply to: WoodrowCall |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Race report is up from the weekend. http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=519987&posts=1#M5025561 Jamie-I'll watch it tonight...looking forward to it. |
| 2014-07-14 8:38 PM in reply to: Stuartap |
New user 234 New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Originally posted by Stuartap Originally posted by GoldenSprocket I have a swim question for the group(Stuart ). I had my first lesson last Monday and we worked on EVF or high elbow catch. Tuesday and Wednesday my shoulders were pretty sore. I expected it, I don't think I've every swam that hard, but it did get me thinking. Recently a friend of mine who is a very good swimmer was complaining after a recent mile swim race that his Lats were sore. Am I pulling with the wrong muscles? I feel like I am pushing water back with my shoulder muscles. Should I be pulling my elbows in to my body with my Lats. In other words should I have the feeling like I would in my Lats as if I was doing a wide grip pull up? I hope I described that correctly. Any thoughts? Kevin hard to answer specifically without seeing your stroke but generally speaking, I seldom to never have sore Lats. I can understand with the drills you are doing the sore shoulders. When I am really pushing it my soreness comes from my biceps and triceps. While I understand the value in the high elbow catch as a teaching tool be careful to not go overboard. Too high an elbow can be inefficient as well as cause the hand to dive to deep, causing the head to drop, etc etc. Bottom line, NO I don't think you are doing anything wrong. But as you gain experience and better form expect the soreness to move down from the shoulder to the upper arm. What you really want to achieve is generating power from the whole arm. The tennis ball drill is good for this but it may be premature for you to try that just yet. The idea is to swim with a tennis ball in each hand. This does three things. First you lose the pull from the hand. This will really help you feel the water with the rest of the arm. Second, it forces you to generate power from the rest of the arm not only because you don't have your hands to use but also because you have to force the ball down against it's natural buoyancy. Third it will speed up the recovery because that same buoyance once you clear the stroke forces the hand to the surface more quickly. I really only recommend this for experienced swimmers with good form. Should you ever try it be prepared for some very strange looks/comments from the other swimmers. BTW - I tend to do a bit more upper body work on the weight machines than a lot of triathletes, around here at least. I find it helps both in the swimming and the cycling. Here are my favorites which, not coincidentally, are ones very common among swimmers. Incline Chest Press Cable Machine Overhead Triceps Extension Cable Machine Biceps Curl Seated Overhead Shoulder Press Standing lat pulldowns Straight-Arm Pulldown Keep at it and you will be fine. Stuart- Thanks for the excellent advice, makes a lot of sense. I have a small in ground pool which works pretty well for the tennis ball drill. I don't need to breath to reach the other end so I can really concentrate on my form. Tough drill. No funny looks from other swimmers in my back yard, however, Chipper the Golden Retriever would like to have a word with you about some missing tennis balls. Thanks again. |
| 2014-07-15 9:56 AM in reply to: GoldenSprocket |
Extreme Veteran 1190 Silicon Valley | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Kevin just tell Chipper that once he learns to ride a bike you would be happy to let him use yours but until then he needs to share the tennis balls. Yes the drill can be tough but a good one. Randy when reviewing your race report and the only important thing you can find to do differently is move up to the elite swimmers, sounds like an awesome race to me. Great job. Jamie I too saw the 20% grade at the TDF. Uh…no thanks. Mike I am happy to answer any questions. Fire away. As for the return to running… I got ‘permission’ to move my running to twice a week. Right now I am doing a two minute fast walk at 4 mph and then a one minute jog at 5 mph. 30 minutes each session. Other than sweating like a pig I am not having any issues with it. No hip pain which is what Doc is looking for. All on the treadmill right now. So he said go ahead and go 2x/week and I can add a little to each. He gave me a few choices. So for all you runners out there, I have a these choices: • Go longer, doing the same 2 min/1 min but for 45 minutes. Extend time further as my body allows. • Increase the jog portion, 1:45 walk/1:15 jog but stay at 30 min. Continue shift to more jog as my body allows. • Increase my speed on the jog 2 min/1 min still at 30 minutes but the jog/run at 6 mph. Increase speed as my body allows. Over time he wants me to do incorporate all of these but for now, one at a time. Which will get me up and running (pun intended) the fastest? From what you guy have taught me going longer time is the best way to start increasing the workouts. Is that right? |
| 2014-07-15 10:38 AM in reply to: Stuartap |
Master 3058 South Alabama | Subject: RE: Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED Stuart-you are smart to slowly and gradually build back into running. Sounds like you have a good plan. Stick with it and your body/hip will slowly adjust as you increase the time and frequency. Tennis ball drill......I swear this is something Stuart dreamed up to torture all of us trying to become better swimmers. Hoping to make up yesterday's swim today....if the weather allows. |
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