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2011-06-09 2:33 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
I don't push off real hard unless I am at masters trying to keep within reach of the faster swimmers.  I seem to have some issues with foot and calf cramps if I push off too hard.

I look at this a lot like flip turns.  To each thier own.  If  you like flip turns or pushing off is 2nd nature, go ahead and do them.  Otherwise get the most out of your pool time by doing the drills, intervals and endurance swims.  Focus on your form, then when weather and situation makes it available, get in the lake or ocean and get your OWS's in.

If you have time and are bored, do a forum search on flip turns and read some of the threads from the past couple of years.  No  middle ground there!  Half the time they get yanked or froze because people get nasty about it!


2011-06-09 2:51 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
marvintpa - 2011-06-09 3:11 PM

If it's not too impolite to ask, what do those things go for these days and how does one actually use a power tap?



Power tap, specifically is built as the hub of the rear wheel to measure power output.  This is another way to measure effort and is thought by most to be the most precise way to measure effort as a lot of the variables are removed.  There is a lot more to it than that and I am still a rookie at training with power, but I am learning and I like what I see.

As far as cost, new you can get a wired PT for about$700 or maybe a little less on sale, all the the way up to several thousand dollars for the upper end, ANT + wirelss version put into a ZIPP or other upper end race wheel.  I am not current on what the used market is doing but the last time I looked good race wheels with PT's were holding their value fairly well.

Ice has probably forgotten more than I know about training with power so I look forward to him weighing in. 
2011-06-09 11:20 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

I've learned there is far more to training than just putting in time.  We have to vary exertion over the range of our aerobic capacity get the best results.  That means slow tempo efforts, harder efforts near that place where our ability to reduce lactic acid is equal to our rate of producing it and then above that in the anaerobic state where we are stressing to the max.  Just putting in hours on the bike, run or swim and the same speed will not cut it. 

There are three ways to measure exertion.  The oldest method of Real Perceived Exertion.  It was simply a subjective guess measured on a scale of 1 to 20 and later reduced to 1 to 10, 1 being the easier.  4-7 or so is tempo (easy to hard),  8 is the Lactate Threshold and 10 is all out.   Not very accurate. 

Heart rate came along.  It is a good measure once you know your maximum HR, you can set the other zones and train in them.  But many things affect the HR, like whether you're tired, not feeling well, etc.

Watt meters take all guess work out.  They do not care how you feel, only what you do.  They measure precisely the amount of watts you produce.  Through testing, the coach can tell what my functional threshold power is.  I do it by riding a time trial for 20 minutes on a computer operated trainer that sets the resistance of the wheel.  Once that LT power is known, then he can set my tempo rangers, my LT range and my anaerobic (VO2 max) range.  Then he can set workouts like tonight's, 90 mins @ 70% (tempo)... Or Tuesday's VO2 workout that was a killer...3 X 4 mins at 115%, 3 X 3 mins at 125% and 3 X 2 mins @ 130% and 3 X 1 min @ 140%.  Doing those intense workouts actually boost my ability to do longer stronger tempo workouts.  

The hub and wheel and handlebar computer came to $1200 new. Is it worth it?  It is to me.  I have a brief window to accomplish my goal of an Ironman before I start to lose muscle mass due to aging.  To cut the curve, the watt meter has been invaluable.  I've increased my LT level by 36% in two years.  That's pretty unheard of.

It makes my workouts more efficient and I know when I'm done that I have done measurable work instead of just pedaling away miles.  We test every 6 to 8 weeks so I can see improvement.  Of course as my LT level goes up, my workouts get harder. 

I just bought a full Power Tap wireless set up on a very nice race wheel with a matching front wheel PLUS a matching rear wheel without the PT for $1800 on ebay.  If new, it would have cost over $4500.  I can sell the extra wheel with another matching front wheel I have if I want and probably make back nearly enough to pay for the racing set with the PT wheel. I'll probably do that after IM.  Until that, I'll keep everything just in case I need spares.

That's probably more than you wanted to know.  But I love training with the watt meter.  I have always felt like I was getting somewhere.

 

 

 



Edited by IceManScott 2011-06-09 11:21 PM
2011-06-10 7:27 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
scraver - 2011-06-09 2:50 PM

Sherri's Stupid Swim Question of the Day:

Swimming = easy.  No sweat.  Not worried.  Swim in the lake.  I have been in the ocean.  (Grew up in a town on the shore.)  Started swim lessons at the age of 10 months.

So.. it occurs to me the other day that the biggest difference for me between the pool and the open water is...

 

 

 

 

wait for it...

 

 

 

 

No wall to push off of every 25 yards.  Duh.  Just straight swimming.  ~hmmphf~  So - when any of you pratice in the pool - do you practice NOT pushing off?

Wish I had a a wall to push off on. I had a strong current today and that might be kind of like a push off the wall effect well in one direction......:-)
2011-06-10 7:56 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

Thanks Ice, I appreciate the time you took on that.

Congratulations on your improvements!!

2011-06-10 11:00 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
IceManScott - 2011-06-10 12:20 AM

I've learned there is far more to training than just putting in time.  We have to vary exertion over the range of our aerobic capacity get the best results.  That means slow tempo efforts, harder efforts near that place where our ability to reduce lactic acid is equal to our rate of producing it and then above that in the anaerobic state where we are stressing to the max.  Just putting in hours on the bike, run or swim and the same speed will not cut it. 

There are three ways to measure exertion.  The oldest method of Real Perceived Exertion.  It was simply a subjective guess measured on a scale of 1 to 20 and later reduced to 1 to 10, 1 being the easier.  4-7 or so is tempo (easy to hard),  8 is the Lactate Threshold and 10 is all out.   Not very accurate. 

Heart rate came along.  It is a good measure once you know your maximum HR, you can set the other zones and train in them.  But many things affect the HR, like whether you're tired, not feeling well, etc.

Watt meters take all guess work out.  They do not care how you feel, only what you do.  They measure precisely the amount of watts you produce.  Through testing, the coach can tell what my functional threshold power is.  I do it by riding a time trial for 20 minutes on a computer operated trainer that sets the resistance of the wheel.  Once that LT power is known, then he can set my tempo rangers, my LT range and my anaerobic (VO2 max) range.  Then he can set workouts like tonight's, 90 mins @ 70% (tempo)... Or Tuesday's VO2 workout that was a killer...3 X 4 mins at 115%, 3 X 3 mins at 125% and 3 X 2 mins @ 130% and 3 X 1 min @ 140%.  Doing those intense workouts actually boost my ability to do longer stronger tempo workouts.  

The hub and wheel and handlebar computer came to $1200 new. Is it worth it?  It is to me.  I have a brief window to accomplish my goal of an Ironman before I start to lose muscle mass due to aging.  To cut the curve, the watt meter has been invaluable.  I've increased my LT level by 36% in two years.  That's pretty unheard of.

It makes my workouts more efficient and I know when I'm done that I have done measurable work instead of just pedaling away miles.  We test every 6 to 8 weeks so I can see improvement.  Of course as my LT level goes up, my workouts get harder. 

I just bought a full Power Tap wireless set up on a very nice race wheel with a matching front wheel PLUS a matching rear wheel without the PT for $1800 on ebay.  If new, it would have cost over $4500.  I can sell the extra wheel with another matching front wheel I have if I want and probably make back nearly enough to pay for the racing set with the PT wheel. I'll probably do that after IM.  Until that, I'll keep everything just in case I need spares.

That's probably more than you wanted to know.  But I love training with the watt meter.  I have always felt like I was getting somewhere.

 

 

 



I knew you would do a better job of explaining this than me, thanks Ice!



2011-06-10 11:02 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
I know we have some folks racing this weekend!  Speak up if you are and good luck!
2011-06-10 5:12 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
Big A race for me on Sunday..Looking forward to trying and killing last years time..However the past two days at work have been physically tough and the heat has sucked the energy from me, my legs feel so dead right now..Hopefully a good night rest and my plan is to take it easy tomorrow.. I guess we will see what happens because my training has been spot on...Good luck to others that are racing...
2011-06-11 1:01 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

shake-n-bake - 2011-06-10 4:12 PM Big A race for me on Sunday..Looking forward to trying and killing last years time..However the past two days at work have been physically tough and the heat has sucked the energy from me, my legs feel so dead right now..Hopefully a good night rest and my plan is to take it easy tomorrow.. I guess we will see what happens because my training has been spot on...Good luck to others that are racing...

 

Good luck on Sunday!

2011-06-11 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

Go get 'em on Sunday!!!

 

2011-06-11 9:29 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
shake-n-bake - 2011-06-10 6:12 PM Big A race for me on Sunday..Looking forward to trying and killing last years time..However the past two days at work have been physically tough and the heat has sucked the energy from me, my legs feel so dead right now..Hopefully a good night rest and my plan is to take it easy tomorrow.. I guess we will see what happens because my training has been spot on...Good luck to others that are racing...


Stay off the legs today other than maybe a little tune up ride.  Hydrate well! 

Have a great race and I hope you beat your goal!!

I look forward to hearing about your results!!


2011-06-11 9:30 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
I went and checked and it looks like we have a few others with races too!

Julie and Kathleen are doing a century tomorrow and Anthony has a 10K!

Good luck and have fun to you 3!!
2011-06-11 9:33 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
I am going to do a little bragging this morning!  Decided to do another local 5K this morning. Not sure since I was on the trainer when I decided and had a pretty heavy run week how I would do.  But I finally beat my previous best 5k by 47 seconds!  All this running is finally paying off!

Funny thing, I came in 29th overall and 6th in my AG!  Tough group of fast old guys!   SmileTongue out
2011-06-11 9:34 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

kenj - 2011-06-11 8:33 AM I am going to do a little bragging this morning!  Decided to do another local 5K this morning. Not sure since I was on the trainer when I decided and had a pretty heavy run week how I would do.  But I finally beat my previous best 5k by 47 seconds!  All this running is finally paying off!

Funny thing, I came in 29th overall and 6th in my AG!  Tough group of fast old guys!   SmileTongue out

 

Congratulations! Way to go!!

2011-06-11 9:35 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

That's a considerable jump for a 5k. Well done!!

Burritos for breakfast?

 

2011-06-11 9:38 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

Question for those (Ken) who use Infinit Smile

For the century tomorrow, how do I do the servings?  I know people have concentrated bottles with three or more servings but then what do you do? take sips of that with water or pour a portion of it into another bottle with water?  Do you carry some extra dry stuff with you for later?  I have to cages on my bike and am also going to use an aero bottle.  Any guidance would be GREATLY appreciated!

 



2011-06-11 10:01 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
Kath2163 - 2011-06-11 10:38 AM

Question for those (Ken) who use Infinit Smile

For the century tomorrow, how do I do the servings?  I know people have concentrated bottles with three or more servings but then what do you do? take sips of that with water or pour a portion of it into another bottle with water?  Do you carry some extra dry stuff with you for later?  I have to cages on my bike and am also going to use an aero bottle.  Any guidance would be GREATLY appreciated!

 



For the century I would take 2 bottles of double (4 scoops) and then water to chase it.  That should take you to about 4 hours give or take depending on effort and temperature.  Then I would have powder in baggies for 2 more double doses to mix up at the aid stations.  I know some people can take it stronger than that, but that is about it for me.  Have fun!  Since it is supported so you will have options, it may be a good time to experiment with different nutrition options.

No Tom, no burritos, but if I have trouble getting through the next level I will give that some thought! Embarassed
2011-06-11 1:57 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

shake-n-bake - 2011-06-10 6:12 PM Big A race for me on Sunday..Looking forward to trying and killing last years time..However the past two days at work have been physically tough and the heat has sucked the energy from me, my legs feel so dead right now..Hopefully a good night rest and my plan is to take it easy tomorrow.. I guess we will see what happens because my training has been spot on...Good luck to others that are racing...

Good luck and have fun tomorrow. Your training has been great, so now all you need to do is rest, hydrate, and then go out and kick some butt!

2011-06-11 2:05 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

kenj - 2011-06-11 10:30 AM I went and checked and it looks like we have a few others with races too!

Julie and Kathleen are doing a century tomorrow and Anthony has a 10K!

Good luck and have fun to you 3!!

Best of luck to Kathleen and Julie! A century is an awfully long way to go. I am impressed!!

My 10K is actually a pretty big deal for me. It is a big local event, and it is the race that got me started. 8 or 9 years ago I had lost about 40 pounds and a guy I know told me I should run the "Classic 10K". I figured I would be one and done just so I could say I did it, but I had so much fun I kept it up and here I am today. My wife is going to walk the 5K, and it's the first time she has done an event like this, so maybe she will get the bug also.

2011-06-11 2:07 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

Best of luck for a PR and a bug

 

2011-06-11 4:57 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
GREAT job Ken!!!!


2011-06-12 9:09 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
Thanks all!

Looking forward to hearing everyones race results!!
2011-06-12 1:37 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

I messed up. I'd wanted to get into a Woodstock race Saturday that was 500m/20k/4k, but the weather was forecast to be bad, so delayed to what I thought was the same race Sunday. It wasn't. Today's was 750m/30k/7k, all distances I've never done in a race. C'est la vie, this is how we learn, right?

Had three goals: finish without the use of a defibrilator, bike leg at avg. 30k/h, and not walk on the run. Didn't get the middle one (only managed 29.6), but I'll take two outta three. And being firs time at those distances ... they're now all PR's. Time was 2:22 with a decent swim, ride I was happy with and run that was all about pacing and learning (sure as hell wasn't about speed as I got centu-chicked -> chicked a hundred times). No idea what the splits were.

Just wanted to say a BIG thanks for all those with suggestions about my previous swim, you were bang on. MUCH better this time by just doing my own pace from stroke one.

2011-06-12 3:29 PM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!
Hello guys...sorry for the delay just finally got to a computer..well all I know right now is I set a PR today not as low as I wanted but it is a PR..time was 2:41 I killed last years time which was 2:53...I had a great race on the bike and run,I felt like I had a good swim going but when exiting the water I was five minutes off pace...as soon as I get all details I will post a rr and let y'all know...Thanks for all the support and inspires...FYI my swim was five minutes slower than last year and I felt so much better this year go figure.
2011-06-13 7:34 AM
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Subject: RE: kenj's group closed, training hard and having fun!!

kenj - 2011-06-11 10:33 AM I am going to do a little bragging this morning!  Decided to do another local 5K this morning. Not sure since I was on the trainer when I decided and had a pretty heavy run week how I would do.  But I finally beat my previous best 5k by 47 seconds!  All this running is finally paying off!

Funny thing, I came in 29th overall and 6th in my AG!  Tough group of fast old guys!   SmileTongue out

Great job on the PR, Ken!

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