kenj mentor group - back for another great season! CLOSED (Page 39)

I saw a guy doing what I suspect was a similar swim/crossfit type workout to what Brian did last week.  You can try that sometime and kill 2 birds with one stone!  Great work so far Becky!!

I enjoyed your post again, and you will definitely appreciate your rest days more as time goes by in the plan, but you will also have moments of concern that you are not doing enough.  Stick with the love of rest day concept and don't give into the negative thoughts! 

Not to bad on volume, more of a long day starting early and ending late. 

Off to anywhere nice Bill?  The running in new places is one thing that helps me enjoy the travel a little more than I would ordinarily.  Have a great week of travel and running!

Volume will probably stay fairly consistent for a few weeks. Will start to bump in up more once I'm outside more because long trainer rides suck, esp on a crappy bike (plus I need to finish this book to see what it says).

I'm trying to speed up my cadence as well. Apparently I work more efficiently at a higher cadence. I'm going back for more testing in another month and a half or so to see if this is true.

Oops, I should have been more clear.  I'm staying in lovely midtown NYC, where there are exactly two places for me to run; Central Park and a path along the West Side Highway.  It's like the movie Groundhog day. Work 14-16hrs, sleep a little, run a little, shower, repeat...

I've got no real complaints, there will be time to travel after April.

I am working to increase my comfort at a higher cadence too, for me it isn't easy.  But, I am told that it is a slow twitch/ fast twitch muscle deal and for endurance athletes doing longer races the higher the cadence that you can hold (within reason) at a given power level, the longer you will be able to hold that power level?  I am still not sure I understand it, but since my coach says I will benefit from it, I will take him at his word and try and improve. 

I do know this much, if you watch the pro cyclist and triathletes on the bike, they all seem to have pretty quick cadences on the bike and for the triathletes it carries over to foot turnover on the run. 

ETA: I seem to have a much higher HR at the higher cadence, regardless of the power level, but it seems to be improving.

I'm not sure of exactly how it works, or the correct terminology or it, but that's essentially what I was told by the tester/coach/nutritionist (not sure how to refer to him), so that's what I'm working on. 

As for the HR, that's just something that will improve with time of course. It is frustrating, but I'm already seeing huge gains (minus my last run) when in comes to speed in zone 2.

I guess for you that would be old hat, but for me that would be interesting to run there!  Although I can appreciate the redundancy of limited run routes!

CyborgQueen - 2013-02-12 4:28 PM Speaking of cadences/power - I'm not. ure if I have asked/discussed before, so pardon me if I did. I don't know if I am really doing it right. My normal comfort cadence is at 85ish. When I run, it stays at 90. My little issue I have is I would be at an easier gear and my power (I'm assuming that this is right) drops and my HR rises and speed drops. Although it feels easier on my legs, it doesn't feel easy on higher HR and breathing. Why is this a problem? It kind of causes issues for long rides, especially in a pace line. Lower cadence + higher power (harder gear) = Lower HR + higher muscular fatique after a longer ride to the point where my quads is sore and seizing up. Higher cadence + lower power (easier gear in order to get higher cadence) = Higher HR + lower muscular fatique. Hope that kind of shows my dilemma. I would like to work on lowering my muscular fatique because they do get tired after a while, and I hate to slow down in a paceline because I can't keep up. Its worse when I'm climbing. I feel like have a hard time turning the cranks (when climbing), while everyone else just fly by. Is it weak quads?what workout can I do to strengthen them? when youre climbing, are you supposed to feel the pain in your quads, like locking/tightness type of pain. I back off and just slowly turn the cranks because of this. I have 11-27 cassette for that matter. HR gets extremely high and breathing hard. Hence why i dont know if i'm actually climbing "right" lol! Is spinning the crank faster on the hills better than slower? My concern with this is my breathing bothers me more than anything, i tried slowing down the breathing, but that just makes it harder and i end up going slower. I'm much slower than many people I know, and it does get frustrating. Same thing for a pace line. I can keep up to a certain point, but then my legs get tired quicker because I'm in a harder gear. If I go easier, my speed drops and hr goes higher. Sorry if its a bit confusing...

I think I understand what you are asking or saying.  I think where you are having an issue is the power at a particular For example, at 90 RPM your power might be 160 where at 75 RPM it is 190.  From what I am being taught and trained to do is to get the power at 90 up to the same 190.  The speed would be equal or close, but you should get less fatigue as it is using different muscle fibers to accomplish this.  I think the challenge is getting the body used to the higher RPM's at a higher power level and nothing but time will help that.  So far, the higher the cadence the higher my HR soars, but it is coming down some.

One thing that I have found with myself, and from what I read it is similar with some a lot of riders, is that this type of training is easier to manage on the trainer.  Not easier to do, but easier to manage.  By that, I mean you can control a lot more of the variables to make sure you hit the power numbers with the cadence you desire. 

I would do the masters workouts.  I have seen this posted many times in the tri forums and by people in the coaching section and the coaches on here, both the D3 that write the plans and the other coaches all agree that doing the masters workouts is more beneficial than just swimming on your own.  The only other advice I have seen that varies on this is to do the masters workouts for the intervals and intensity a couple of days a week, but save one for swimming the longer sets or straight sets on your own. 

CyborgQueen - 2013-02-12 8:15 PM So f*cking upset today. My friend, Mike Klute, passed away cycling yesterday. He had a heart attack. He was on the BLV crew for a long time and a great rider. He pulled me on a large hill between mile 70-75 when I was ready to give up, and he kept saying, "you can do it. You're strong. Just keep on turning the cranks.". I last saw him on Sunday just chatting and laughing. We all are sadden by the sudden loss. He was 66 years old and can beat the crap out of the youngsters. He hung out with us every Tues and Thursday night rides. Although there have been other cyclist deaths, I didn't know them. This was the first cyclist that I knew passed away.

Sorry for the loss of your friend DJ!  Sad to lose someone that way that obviously cared about his health.

CyborgQueen - 2013-02-13 12:35 AM

kenj - 2013-02-12 7:20 PM

CyborgQueen - 2013-02-12 4:28 PM Speaking of cadences/power - I'm not. ure if I have asked/discussed before, so pardon me if I did. I don't know if I am really doing it right. My normal comfort cadence is at 85ish. When I run, it stays at 90. My little issue I have is I would be at an easier gear and my power (I'm assuming that this is right) drops and my HR rises and speed drops. Although it feels easier on my legs, it doesn't feel easy on higher HR and breathing. Why is this a problem? It kind of causes issues for long rides, especially in a pace line. Lower cadence + higher power (harder gear) = Lower HR + higher muscular fatique after a longer ride to the point where my quads is sore and seizing up. Higher cadence + lower power (easier gear in order to get higher cadence) = Higher HR + lower muscular fatique. Hope that kind of shows my dilemma. I would like to work on lowering my muscular fatique because they do get tired after a while, and I hate to slow down in a paceline because I can't keep up. Its worse when I'm climbing. I feel like have a hard time turning the cranks (when climbing), while everyone else just fly by. Is it weak quads?what workout can I do to strengthen them? when youre climbing, are you supposed to feel the pain in your quads, like locking/tightness type of pain. I back off and just slowly turn the cranks because of this. I have 11-27 cassette for that matter. HR gets extremely high and breathing hard. Hence why i dont know if i'm actually climbing "right" lol! Is spinning the crank faster on the hills better than slower? My concern with this is my breathing bothers me more than anything, i tried slowing down the breathing, but that just makes it harder and i end up going slower. I'm much slower than many people I know, and it does get frustrating. Same thing for a pace line. I can keep up to a certain point, but then my legs get tired quicker because I'm in a harder gear. If I go easier, my speed drops and hr goes higher. Sorry if its a bit confusing...

I think I understand what you are asking or saying.  I think where you are having an issue is the power at a particular For example, at 90 RPM your power might be 160 where at 75 RPM it is 190.  From what I am being taught and trained to do is to get the power at 90 up to the same 190.  The speed would be equal or close, but you should get less fatigue as it is using different muscle fibers to accomplish this.  I think the challenge is getting the body used to the higher RPM's at a higher power level and nothing but time will help that.  So far, the higher the cadence the higher my HR soars, but it is coming down some.

One thing that I have found with myself, and from what I read it is similar with some a lot of riders, is that this type of training is easier to manage on the trainer.  Not easier to do, but easier to manage.  By that, I mean you can control a lot more of the variables to make sure you hit the power numbers with the cadence you desire. 

. I do hope you understood! Okay, that's something I can really work on. The night rides and weekend rides are starting up again, so any trainer time is limited and this certainly gives me something to focus on twice weekly (or is that too little?). So, for trainer rides I should focus on higher rpm while maintaining a higher power, and over time my HR and effort should decrease, thus making it easier on the road. Is that right?

Yes, I believe that is right.  You can do this on the road too, but I find it difficult to focus on cadence, power and HR while not driving into the ditch where as on the trainer that isn't an issue. Get it into muscle memory and when you are outside it becomes more natural.  Plus overall, just building your power over time, today's hard effort is next months easy effort.

Great work Jennifer getting back on track, like said consistency is the key!

The hill could be your max to set your zones, unless you thought it was out of the ordinary.  Naturally the HR will spike some on a hill.  If you ride that hill regularly it could become your bench mark to measure your progress as you improve.

DJ, very sorry to hear about your friend!

I think you guys maybe overthinking this cadence thing a bit.  From what I was always told, if you are naturally between 85-100 you are completely normal.  Personally, I sit around 90 naturally.  Adrenaline of races and anticipation of intervals on the trainer sometimes gets me around 92-93 and when I'm tired I sit around 88.  A few things to think about:

1.  Optimal climbing cadence is usually around 60-70.  This is where you use more muscle.  If you cease up working at this cadence it usually means you should do more climbing.  Your body is like a book of matches.  You burn too many matches in one ride and you cease up!  You need to train your body to handle these burns!

2.  Normal cadence around 90 in the flats is optimal and up to 100 for bigger surges.  Again......match sticks.  If your not practicing burning more match sticks in training your not going to be able to burn more on rides and in races. 

Here's a tip to get your legs used to a 90ish cadence.  When you warm up do 5 minutes easy spin.  On the 1:30 spin 100+ for a 30" with little to no load/pwr.  Then on the 3:00 spin 100+ for 1:00.  On the 5:00 do 5'@60%FTP, on the 10:00 do 5' more @ 70% FTP both at 90RPM.  On the 15:00 do the following:

20" at FTP/40"rest

4x30 @FTP/30" rest

Then rest 5' before starting your workout.

3.  Do some climbing in training.  On the trainer you can do 6-8 minute intervals builing from 70 to 100+% FTP with 4 or 2 minutes rest.  If I'm short on time I'll do 4 of these, but sometimes on the weekends I'll these for an entire hour of my ride.  All of these are at 60-70 cadence and rest cadence is at 90 with little to no load.  This will add more matches to your book on the road!

All of this together will probably do exactly what you guys need to normalize cadence at given power levels and get you used to certain types of efforts and the optimal cadences you should use. 

You are right to some degree on the over thinking, it should be natural to spin between 85 and 100.  Unfortunately in my case, my comfort level and average ride was somewhere between 60 & 65.  So, I do need to spend some time fixing it, per my coaches direction. When he looked back on my ride files for the few months prior to starting with him that was the first thing he noticed and commented on needing to work on.  Not necessarily because it was something that everyone should work on, but because in my case it was abnormally low.

I think some of it is just that I have shorter strong legs that were never quick (probably part of the reason my hockey career never went anywhere).  The part is that I could crank out higher power numbers a little easier at the lower cadence using strength instead of endurance. 

I will try some of what you suggest.  I am also working on single leg drills to straighten out the other issue this caused.  If you could picture each leg doing single leg presses that was what my pedal stroke had a tendency to do.  I have come a long way in the last 6 weeks, but still have room for improvement. If I get brave, some time on the rollers will help this too.  Can't be to jerky on that death trap without riding into the wall.

Thanks Brian.

On the good news front, according to UPS my Quarq is out for delivery and the wife has an appointment after work so I should have plenty of time to have some fun setting it up!!

ETA: Another sign that spring is coming, for the first time in a while I got bored on the treadmill this morning! 

65 cadence!!!!! damn! you are strange! lol