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The whole homosexuality debate (Page 4)
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 2015-02-20 9:36 AM in reply to: chirunner134 |
Pro  9391     Omaha, NE |  Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debateOriginally posted by chirunner134 Originally posted by tuwood You communist you. Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya.  It is what they did in Yugoslavia (a communist country). my girl's mom regrets getting the civil part done because once he became a drunk she could dumped him if it was only religious. She would not be able to remarry in the church but she would not have been legally bound to him. If church marriages were not civil binding I would be married right now. My girl does not want to be legally bound. lol, I didn't say there weren't other issues to be discovered with civil unions. There was some story I read several months back where a guy was trying to marry (form a civil union) to his son because he was extremely wealthy and it was a way to avoid the inheritance tax. I thought that was awesome, talk about working the system. |
| 2015-02-20 9:39 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate We already have civil unions and church marriages.....why can't gay people just pick how they want to get married like the rest of us? Why is it even a point of discussion? |
| 2015-02-20 9:44 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by Left Brain We already have civil unions and church marriages.....why can't gay people just pick how they want to get married like the rest of us? Why is it even a point of discussion? I think a lot of states still have restrictions on "man/woman" civil unions only. |
| 2015-02-20 9:51 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by Left Brain We already have civil unions and church marriages.....why can't gay people just pick how they want to get married like the rest of us? Why is it even a point of discussion? I think a lot of states still have restrictions on "man/woman" civil unions only. Boneheads |
| 2015-02-20 10:58 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 15211 Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by Left Brain We already have civil unions and church marriages.....why can't gay people just pick how they want to get married like the rest of us? Why is it even a point of discussion?
because it is icky. |
| 2015-02-20 10:59 AM in reply to: crowny2 |
Champion 15211 Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by crowny2 Originally posted by Left Brain We already have civil unions and church marriages.....why can't gay people just pick how they want to get married like the rest of us? Why is it even a point of discussion?
because it is icky.
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| 2015-02-20 11:36 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. I read the first of those articles and didn't make it through the second. I think they're appalling. They are nothing more than thinly-veiled re-hashings of the same tired, bigoted positions we've always heard, by both the religious and the so-called secular opponents. Fundamentally, the argument is, "We've always done it this way (man+woman) so why should we, the majority, have to change the way we think just because some minorities feel as though their rights aren't being respected?" In fact, the very first argument they pose against SSM is, "Anti-Minoritarianism. The majority has rights, too." Rights to what exactly? The right to opress minorities who choose to live differently than they choose to? He also goes down this path, which I honestly can't believe people are still willing to say out loud: "Once marriage has been redefined to include homosexual pairings, what grounds will there be to oppose futher redefinition — to encompass people who want to marry their ponies, their sisters, or their soccer team?" Right. Because lots of people want to marry their pony or soccer team.... And he goes on to say that "Gay marriage proponents make much of the cruelty and injustices of the past. I must say, though, being old enough to remember some of that past, I am unimpressed. I was in college in the early 1960s. There were homosexual students, and nobody minded them. They seemed perfectly happy. Certainly they were not “beaten and brutalized”; and if they had been, I assume the ordinary laws of assault and battery would have come into play. I can recall even further back, known homosexual couples keeping house together in my provincial English home town in the 1950s. People made jokes about it, but nobody bothered them — though sodomy was illegal in England at the time! I don’t think private consensual acts should be illegal; but that aside, I don’t see much wrong with the mid-20th-century dispensation, based as it was on the great and splendid Anglo-Saxon principle of minding your own business. So, his point is, gay people don't have it so bad and they shouldn't be complaining about wanting "extra" rights? Easy for him to say. Since he can't personally recall any examples of gay people being "beaten and bruatalized" as a result of their orientation, it must not have happened much, if at all? "They seemed perfectly happy." I'm sorry but is he effing kidding? I love that he ends with a reference to "the great and splendid Angelo-Saxon principle of minding your own business". I actually LOL'd at that. If only regressive, backwards morons like him would mind their own business.... |
| 2015-02-20 5:28 PM in reply to: tuwood |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks!Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. |
| 2015-02-20 8:45 PM in reply to: SGirl |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. |
| 2015-02-21 8:49 AM in reply to: tuwood |
| 489 | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin? Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone? It just cannot be right. And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts. |
| 2015-02-21 3:01 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. Appreciate your feedback to it. The main problem I have is when politicians and government officials, try to move faith into government. It doesn't belong there. No country should be swayed by the majority of people following a certain religion. I don't begrudge anyone from having their respective views on homosexuality, but it is wrong to push those ideals on all, and for a while, it was that way in the United States. I think that governments should be secular in how they devise laws, and statutes, with religion not at all coming into play. I'm equally against Creationism being taught in the public school system, for this very reason. Not all religious people believe in Creationism, either, so to push that forward is mainly a Christian ideal. I used the word ''mainly'' this time. lol  Edited by SGirl 2015-02-21 3:02 PM |
| 2015-02-21 4:39 PM in reply to: Dan-L |
Veteran 869 Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by Dan-L Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin? Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone? It just cannot be right. And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts. This is exactly what troubles me most and what caused me to lose any faith that I may have had. I could go into a cry me a river story about growing up but I won't I had it much easier than most people. Sitting there the few times I was in church when the pastor and people condemned being gay. Sitting there feeling awful, because I was feeling those 'unnatural urges'. Unless you lived it you have no idea what kind of damage that can do to a child. Ever wonder why suicide rates are up amongst LGBT+ youth? Then my extremely conservative and religious extended family bashing gays any time they could, yet them committing many sins themselves? If there is a god, and he is 'testing my faith' as some would claim I would want nothing to do with that god. I would view that god as a cruel unloving god, not a compassionate one. Making people grow up hating themselves, confused and angry at the world. Why would any compassionate god do that? |
| 2015-02-21 11:43 PM in reply to: Justin86 |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by Justin86 Agree with a lot of what you have to say, here. I've often wondered...if human beings are capable of showing compassion, why would a god show less compassion than a human being? Originally posted by Dan-L Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin? Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone? It just cannot be right. And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts. This is exactly what troubles me most and what caused me to lose any faith that I may have had. I could go into a cry me a river story about growing up but I won't I had it much easier than most people. Sitting there the few times I was in church when the pastor and people condemned being gay. Sitting there feeling awful, because I was feeling those 'unnatural urges'. Unless you lived it you have no idea what kind of damage that can do to a child. Ever wonder why suicide rates are up amongst LGBT+ youth? Then my extremely conservative and religious extended family bashing gays any time they could, yet them committing many sins themselves? If there is a god, and he is 'testing my faith' as some would claim I would want nothing to do with that god. I would view that god as a cruel unloving god, not a compassionate one. Making people grow up hating themselves, confused and angry at the world. Why would any compassionate god do that? |
| 2015-02-23 2:31 PM in reply to: 0 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by Justin86 Agree with a lot of what you have to say, here. I've often wondered...if human beings are capable of showing compassion, why would a god show less compassion than a human being? Originally posted by Dan-L Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin? Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone? It just cannot be right. And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts. This is exactly what troubles me most and what caused me to lose any faith that I may have had. I could go into a cry me a river story about growing up but I won't I had it much easier than most people. Sitting there the few times I was in church when the pastor and people condemned being gay. Sitting there feeling awful, because I was feeling those 'unnatural urges'. Unless you lived it you have no idea what kind of damage that can do to a child. Ever wonder why suicide rates are up amongst LGBT+ youth? Then my extremely conservative and religious extended family bashing gays any time they could, yet them committing many sins themselves? If there is a god, and he is 'testing my faith' as some would claim I would want nothing to do with that god. I would view that god as a cruel unloving god, not a compassionate one. Making people grow up hating themselves, confused and angry at the world. Why would any compassionate god do that? I think most compassionate people believe in a compassionate god. Hateful, bigoted people believe in whatever version of G-d corresponds to their own nature and justifies their bigotry. The terrorists in ISIS believe they are carrying out the wishes of their god. So does the Westboro Baptist Church. But so did Ghandi and so did Mother Theresa. Edited by jmk-brooklyn 2015-02-23 2:35 PM |
| 2015-02-23 2:45 PM in reply to: Dan-L |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by Dan-L Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin? Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone? It just cannot be right. And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts. Unfortunately it's not that easy because I don't get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible are sin. It's very clear what is sin and what is not when it comes to sexuality so there's really no debate there. I think the only intellectually honest way you can say that homosexuality isn't a sin in Christianity is to say that the Bible is wrong. |
| 2015-02-23 2:54 PM in reply to: SGirl |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood Appreciate your feedback to it. The main problem I have is when politicians and government officials, try to move faith into government. It doesn't belong there. No country should be swayed by the majority of people following a certain religion. I don't begrudge anyone from having their respective views on homosexuality, but it is wrong to push those ideals on all, and for a while, it was that way in the United States. I think that governments should be secular in how they devise laws, and statutes, with religion not at all coming into play. I'm equally against Creationism being taught in the public school system, for this very reason. Not all religious people believe in Creationism, either, so to push that forward is mainly a Christian ideal. I used the word ''mainly'' this time. lol Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. I get what you're saying, and agree with most of it. The unfortunate thing is that even secularism is "religious" in nature when it comes to social laws. Thou shall not kill, tho shall not steal, etc... are both religious and secular ideals. The real issue isn't so much religion or secularism, it's public opinion that causes the problems. With hot button issues such as gay marriage, abortion, entitlements, etc... you have 50% of the population that supports one side and 50% that supports another side. It doesn't matter why they support them because ultimately if it doesn't violate an individuals constitutional rights then the laws will fall in line with public opinion. The gay marriage issue is a perfect example of this because social acceptance has changed drastically over the past several decades and public support went from a small minority to a fairly convincing majority. It changed so fast the past decade that the laws are having a hard time changing fast enough to keep up with public opinion. |
| 2015-02-24 3:03 AM in reply to: tuwood |
| 489 | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by Dan-L Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin? Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone? It just cannot be right. And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts. Unfortunately it's not that easy because I don't get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible are sin. It's very clear what is sin and what is not when it comes to sexuality so there's really no debate there. I think the only intellectually honest way you can say that homosexuality isn't a sin in Christianity is to say that the Bible is wrong. And that sums up the problem will all religions for me. When you really get down to the nitty gritty the only counter argument is 'because my book says so'. A book that was written by several men over hundreds of years and they were able to interpret as they saw fit.
|
| 2015-02-24 9:14 AM in reply to: Dan-L |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by Dan-L Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by Dan-L Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks! Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided. I respectfully disagree. There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them. For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages. Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject. http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/ Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights. Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government. I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual. bam, lets all sing kumbaya. No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people. I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word. I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin. However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad. I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal. I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair. I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever... we have to stop it at all costs... yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married. According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship. This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play. Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!! lol Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period. We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin. That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do. Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them. Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one. Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says. This is not up for debate. If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart. Why does the Bible point out sin? The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life. If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life. Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things. Affairs don't often end well. Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions. Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life. My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college. He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party. Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics. Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin? Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone? It just cannot be right. And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts. Unfortunately it's not that easy because I don't get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible are sin. It's very clear what is sin and what is not when it comes to sexuality so there's really no debate there. I think the only intellectually honest way you can say that homosexuality isn't a sin in Christianity is to say that the Bible is wrong. And that sums up the problem will all religions for me. When you really get down to the nitty gritty the only counter argument is 'because my book says so'. A book that was written by several men over hundreds of years and they were able to interpret as they saw fit.
I agree with this in many ways because it was my very struggle. Whose book of magical wizardry do I pick to follow /eyeroll was what I thought of religion for most of my life. I read the Bible daily and I still struggle trying to understand a lot of things in there, but when it comes to learning how to get your stuff together as a father, husband, and friend it's been perfection in my life. I'm not perfect by any means, but the example shown by Jesus when followed does work. I've seen so many train wrecked individuals, marriages, parents, kids, you name it that have been changed completely. Yes, the book does say so but the real validity to the truth in my opinion is how life works when you apply the book in your life. It's like a Triathlon training program that people swear by. I can say it's the best ever, but until you do it and see the results in your life you won't (and shouldn't) believe that it is true. |
| 2015-02-25 6:31 AM in reply to: tuwood |
| 489 | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate I'm got my faith but I've not been able to associate with one of the organised religions because of their inherent hate for others at some point. I just can't align with that. I live my life by the principles taught in the bible (and probably the Koran too if I ever bothered to look at it) but in both religions (and the others) there's some unacceptable small bits that I just won't get on board with. And when I die if I get stopped at the gates and not allowed in because I fully supported someone's right to live with someone else of the same sex and ensure they had a happy, loving, full life then He can send me downstairs to burn with a smile on my face. |
| 2015-02-25 8:29 AM in reply to: Dan-L |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by Dan-L I'm got my faith but I've not been able to associate with one of the organised religions because of their inherent hate for others at some point. I just can't align with that. I live my life by the principles taught in the bible (and probably the Koran too if I ever bothered to look at it) but in both religions (and the others) there's some unacceptable small bits that I just won't get on board with. And when I die if I get stopped at the gates and not allowed in because I fully supported someone's right to live with someone else of the same sex and ensure they had a happy, loving, full life then He can send me downstairs to burn with a smile on my face. I don't think your struggle is uncommon at all, but I want to caution on one thing. Christianity isn't a religion of hate towards anyone, it's quite the opposite. Just because individuals hate in the name of Jesus, doesn't mean Christianity is a religion of hate. It simply means those people are haters. Even towards same sex relationships anyone who follows the word of the Bible is to do nothing more than love anyone who is involved in any kind of sin. The Bible naming certain activities as sin is not the same as hating on somebody because if it was then God hates all of us including myself. Personally, I hate religion and this video sums it up very well as to why.
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| 2015-02-25 9:16 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by Dan-L I'm got my faith but I've not been able to associate with one of the organised religions because of their inherent hate for others at some point. I just can't align with that. I live my life by the principles taught in the bible (and probably the Koran too if I ever bothered to look at it) but in both religions (and the others) there's some unacceptable small bits that I just won't get on board with. And when I die if I get stopped at the gates and not allowed in because I fully supported someone's right to live with someone else of the same sex and ensure they had a happy, loving, full life then He can send me downstairs to burn with a smile on my face. I don't think your struggle is uncommon at all, but I want to caution on one thing. Christianity isn't a religion of hate towards anyone, it's quite the opposite. Just because individuals hate in the name of Jesus, doesn't mean Christianity is a religion of hate. It simply means those people are haters. Even towards same sex relationships anyone who follows the word of the Bible is to do nothing more than love anyone who is involved in any kind of sin. The Bible naming certain activities as sin is not the same as hating on somebody because if it was then God hates all of us including myself. Personally, I hate religion and this video sums it up very well as to why.
I can't speak for you......but judging from the morning I'm having I don't have any doubt He hates me. |
| 2015-02-25 9:29 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by Dan-L I'm got my faith but I've not been able to associate with one of the organised religions because of their inherent hate for others at some point. I just can't align with that. I live my life by the principles taught in the bible (and probably the Koran too if I ever bothered to look at it) but in both religions (and the others) there's some unacceptable small bits that I just won't get on board with. And when I die if I get stopped at the gates and not allowed in because I fully supported someone's right to live with someone else of the same sex and ensure they had a happy, loving, full life then He can send me downstairs to burn with a smile on my face. I don't think your struggle is uncommon at all, but I want to caution on one thing. Christianity isn't a religion of hate towards anyone, it's quite the opposite. Just because individuals hate in the name of Jesus, doesn't mean Christianity is a religion of hate. It simply means those people are haters. Even towards same sex relationships anyone who follows the word of the Bible is to do nothing more than love anyone who is involved in any kind of sin. The Bible naming certain activities as sin is not the same as hating on somebody because if it was then God hates all of us including myself. Personally, I hate religion and this video sums it up very well as to why.
I can't speak for you......but judging from the morning I'm having I don't have any doubt He hates me. The sad part is we live in a jacked up world. I think both spiritual and secular can agree on that. |
| 2015-02-25 9:00 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate As long as it's consenting adults, and legal...why do people care about other's sexual identities, preferences etc? Guess I never really understood that. |
| 2015-04-15 3:36 PM in reply to: SGirl |
Expert 1544 Alexandria, MN | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate I heard a very interesting viewpoint on the original post of this thread the other day, I'm curious what others think of it. Essentially it was saying that the religious conservatives view homosexuality as a choice, therefore it is not deserving of any legal protection and/or special considerations. However, isn't religion a choice? Don't we all joke about the door to door Mormons trying to convince people to change their religion? To choose to follow a different religion? Or to choose to have a religion at all, for those who don't believe? So why is religion covered, protected and given special consideration legally? |
| 2015-04-15 3:53 PM in reply to: Climbinggonzo |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate Originally posted by Climbinggonzo I heard a very interesting viewpoint on the original post of this thread the other day, I'm curious what others think of it. Essentially it was saying that the religious conservatives view homosexuality as a choice, therefore it is not deserving of any legal protection and/or special considerations. However, isn't religion a choice? Don't we all joke about the door to door Mormons trying to convince people to change their religion? To choose to follow a different religion? Or to choose to have a religion at all, for those who don't believe? So why is religion covered, protected and given special consideration legally? Simple. Because religion is not a choice. If you believe that Jesus is your lord and savoir and he is the ONLY way then do you have a choice? Not really. Just like a lot of people feel called when they convert. |
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