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IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL (Page 4)
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 2009-05-27 6:29 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
Expert  657    Portland |  Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFLI don't really see this thing going anywhere. I mean, if conditions were so unsafe, how did the other 2000+ participants manage to get out of the water alive? I am sure that NAS et al will be able to demonstrate that there were plenty of lifeguards, divers, kayakers, IOW emergency response hands on site. I think the issue of mass starts is a moot point because as others have said already, you can place yourself away from the fracas if you want to avoid the beating. Also, the physical contact can be constant for the whole swim, not just the start actually. Plus, as was also mentioned earlier, didnt the accidental drowing happen about 350yards from the end of the swim? Of course, having said this, there is no guarantee that the jury wont be comprised of a bunch of numb-skulls. |
 2009-05-27 6:41 PM in reply to: #2176931 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-05-27 7:01 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Expert 936 Salisbury | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Regarding the Mass starts: First, I personally think that's part of an IM. I'm not a great swimmer and that was the most "scary" part of my IM but it was also something I wanted to do. Part of the challenge. Second, is a wave start THAT much safer? If you're in the water with 2000 people how many are right next to you? If there is 2000 on 10 different waves would that be easier to regulate? Third, is the logistics of having separate waves obviously means the course is open for a longer period of time. Closing a city down for 17 hrs is hard enough. And yes, I know there are wave start IMs now. |
| 2009-05-27 7:33 PM in reply to: #2176815 |
Sneaky Slow 8694   Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 6:03 PM bachorb - 2009-05-27 2:54 PM . I personally think they should have some sort of qualifying system in place for people to do their first open water swim. I did an open water swim last week with the Manhattan Island Foundation, and in order to register I had to show proof that I had done at least one 1/2 mile open water swim previously. If you had never done an open water swim, you had to obtain a pool certification that you could swim a certain distance continiously. It's not much but a simple system like that could help save lives. At this point I am surprised they will just let anyone who can click a mouse to register do a tri. Maybe this lawsuit will change that, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing. And yet, whenever anyone brings up the idea of a certification swim being necessary, people literally go off the deep end, talk about personal rights, legislation of leisure activity, etc. As a long time fish, I am astonished and somewhat horrified when I watch the BOP area of a triathlon Oly distance or greater. As an example, at the Tempe International triathlon this month, it was NON wetsuit legal for the first time. I mean we are talking about a man made basin, rectangular, flat, about as tame an OWS as you can get. There were a few dozen people that elected NOT TO START because it wasn't wetsuit legal. A few took the "no time" and swam in their wetsuit anyway. Of those that did start, there were many bailouts, one of which was within 100m of the start. 100m. But dare suggest to any of those people that there should be a qualification standard in place, and stand back away from the eruption. John I read through the lawsuit, and I don't see anything in it that suggests having a qualification standard in place would have saved this guy. Not sure what that has to do with this situation, really. That said, I think people who do an IM swim as their first race OWS, are out of their mind. |
| 2009-05-27 8:24 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL They could blame peer pressure, excitement, any number of things to keep this case going. If a patient can sue for a complication after being told--and signing agreement--that it may happen as a result of a procedure, a good lawyer should have no trouble getting around the waiver. Just because an athlete signs on the dotted line doesn't mean that the organizer is free of any responsibility. Fatal events are rare, but here's one that happened and wasn't stopped by the people responsible for making a safe event. |
| 2009-05-27 8:26 PM in reply to: #2177131 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by PennState 2009-05-27 8:26 PM |
| 2009-05-27 8:33 PM in reply to: #2177134 |
| Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL PennState - 2009-05-27 9:26 PM DrPete - 2009-05-27 9:24 PM They could blame peer pressure, excitement, any number of things to keep this case going. If a patient can sue for a complication after being told--and signing agreement--that it may happen as a result of a procedure, a good lawyer should have no trouble getting around the waiver. Just because an athlete signs on the dotted line doesn't mean that the organizer is free of any responsibility. Fatal events are rare, but here's one that happened and wasn't stopped by the people responsible for making a safe event. Was it stoppable? How safe can you make an ironman? I don't know, but until these things are investigated and not written off as "part of the game" neither will anyone else. In a hospital, if there's a "sentinel event," it mandates a thorough evaluation of all of the circumstances around the event, all the people involved, etc. It's a voluntary process in any hospital that's nationally accredited. Maybe something will come of it that will make for a little bit safer race. Maybe not. If there is something that could have been done better that may have saved an athlete, then I don't think it's such a frivolous lawsuit. Having raced in USAC, where you need to perform at a certain level for a certain number of races in your category before racing with the fast kids, the concept of a minimum experience requirement for an IM, for instance, doesn't seem like a bad idea. Of course I'm a total newbie here in tri-land, so I could be missing something. |
| 2009-05-27 8:37 PM in reply to: #2176815 |
| Champion 9060 Charlottesville, Virginia | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 6:03 PM bachorb - 2009-05-27 2:54 PM . I personally think they should have some sort of qualifying system in place for people to do their first open water swim. I did an open water swim last week with the Manhattan Island Foundation, and in order to register I had to show proof that I had done at least one 1/2 mile open water swim previously. If you had never done an open water swim, you had to obtain a pool certification that you could swim a certain distance continiously. It's not much but a simple system like that could help save lives. At this point I am surprised they will just let anyone who can click a mouse to register do a tri. Maybe this lawsuit will change that, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing. And yet, whenever anyone brings up the idea of a certification swim being necessary, people literally go off the deep end, talk about personal rights, legislation of leisure activity, etc. As a long time fish, I am astonished and somewhat horrified when I watch the BOP area of a triathlon Oly distance or greater. As an example, at the Tempe International triathlon this month, it was NON wetsuit legal for the first time. I mean we are talking about a man made basin, rectangular, flat, about as tame an OWS as you can get. There were a few dozen people that elected NOT TO START because it wasn't wetsuit legal. A few took the "no time" and swam in their wetsuit anyway. Of those that did start, there were many bailouts, one of which was within 100m of the start. 100m. But dare suggest to any of those people that there should be a qualification standard in place, and stand back away from the eruption. John Just to clarify, has anyone drowned in a triathlon from being a sucky swimmer? Every report of anyone that died I have seen had some kind of complication that caused them to drown, heart attack, or something similar like what happened to this fellow. Sounds more like we need Dr's notes in order to compete with a clean bill of health and no family history of heart issues more than swim certifications. |
| 2009-05-27 8:48 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Champion 6503 NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL All I'm gonna offer is that.... If I die in a race and my family sues, I'm gonna haunt their arses forever. My wife and I both race. Every time I jump in the water, get on my bike, or strap on my running shoes, I am aware that I could die. Let me repeat that. Every time I jump in the water, get on my bike, or strap on my running shoes, I am aware that I could die. I'm not morbid, and the the thought only lasts a moment. I'd much rather die in a race than sitting on the couch eating bon-bons. "This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time." Fight Club |
| 2009-05-27 8:59 PM in reply to: #2177156 |
| Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL dalessit - 2009-05-27 8:37 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 6:03 PM bachorb - 2009-05-27 2:54 PM . I personally think they should have some sort of qualifying system in place for people to do their first open water swim. I did an open water swim last week with the Manhattan Island Foundation, and in order to register I had to show proof that I had done at least one 1/2 mile open water swim previously. If you had never done an open water swim, you had to obtain a pool certification that you could swim a certain distance continiously. It's not much but a simple system like that could help save lives. At this point I am surprised they will just let anyone who can click a mouse to register do a tri. Maybe this lawsuit will change that, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing. And yet, whenever anyone brings up the idea of a certification swim being necessary, people literally go off the deep end, talk about personal rights, legislation of leisure activity, etc. As a long time fish, I am astonished and somewhat horrified when I watch the BOP area of a triathlon Oly distance or greater. As an example, at the Tempe International triathlon this month, it was NON wetsuit legal for the first time. I mean we are talking about a man made basin, rectangular, flat, about as tame an OWS as you can get. There were a few dozen people that elected NOT TO START because it wasn't wetsuit legal. A few took the "no time" and swam in their wetsuit anyway. Of those that did start, there were many bailouts, one of which was within 100m of the start. 100m. But dare suggest to any of those people that there should be a qualification standard in place, and stand back away from the eruption. John Just to clarify, has anyone drowned in a triathlon from being a sucky swimmer? Every report of anyone that died I have seen had some kind of complication that caused them to drown, heart attack, or something similar like what happened to this fellow. Sounds more like we need Dr's notes in order to compete with a clean bill of health and no family history of heart issues more than swim certifications. Yes people die from being a sucky swimmers all the time. The stress of the initial event causes heart attacks all the time. Stress becomes anxiety, anxiety becomes panic and whamo. How many marathon runners die in the first 20 minutes? They die late in the race. As an added bonus, the lifeguards are flooded with requests for help at the back of the pack and others who can swim are not taken care of. I run a swim clinic before a sprint race here and I am constantly amazed at what I see. Without fail I get a handful of swimmers who bail less than 50 yards into the practice swim because they can't go any further. Just like Hawaii requires that you have done a half, I think it would be great to vet the swim in some way. |
| 2009-05-27 9:05 PM in reply to: #2177178 |
| Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL pga_mike - 2009-05-27 9:48 PM All I'm gonna offer is that.... If I die in a race and my family sues, I'm gonna haunt their arses forever. My wife and I both race. Every time I jump in the water, get on my bike, or strap on my running shoes, I am aware that I could die. Let me repeat that. Every time I jump in the water, get on my bike, or strap on my running shoes, I am aware that I could die. I'm not morbid, and the the thought only lasts a moment. I'd much rather die in a race than sitting on the couch eating bon-bons. "This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time." Fight Club What if it were something the race organizers had control over? How about if everyone watching you drown on the swim were untrained and didn't do anything? |
| 2009-05-27 9:07 PM in reply to: #2177201 |
| Champion 9060 Charlottesville, Virginia | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL Could have sworn that all the ones I saw in Tri's over the last year people had pre-existing conditions that caused their problem not the fact that they couldn't swim. But I could be wrong. TBH I don't see a problem with having to be certified to swim, not sure it would make that much of a difference in deaths but maybe would as you say have more lifeguards available when someone does have a problem if the people can at least swim the distance. I believe this gentelman had his problem in the last 350M so he could obviously swim the distance. Edited by dalessit 2009-05-27 9:08 PM |
| 2009-05-27 9:12 PM in reply to: #2177201 |
| Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL tjfry - 2009-05-27 9:59 PM dalessit - 2009-05-27 8:37 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 6:03 PM bachorb - 2009-05-27 2:54 PM . I personally think they should have some sort of qualifying system in place for people to do their first open water swim. I did an open water swim last week with the Manhattan Island Foundation, and in order to register I had to show proof that I had done at least one 1/2 mile open water swim previously. If you had never done an open water swim, you had to obtain a pool certification that you could swim a certain distance continiously. It's not much but a simple system like that could help save lives. At this point I am surprised they will just let anyone who can click a mouse to register do a tri. Maybe this lawsuit will change that, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing. And yet, whenever anyone brings up the idea of a certification swim being necessary, people literally go off the deep end, talk about personal rights, legislation of leisure activity, etc. As a long time fish, I am astonished and somewhat horrified when I watch the BOP area of a triathlon Oly distance or greater. As an example, at the Tempe International triathlon this month, it was NON wetsuit legal for the first time. I mean we are talking about a man made basin, rectangular, flat, about as tame an OWS as you can get. There were a few dozen people that elected NOT TO START because it wasn't wetsuit legal. A few took the "no time" and swam in their wetsuit anyway. Of those that did start, there were many bailouts, one of which was within 100m of the start. 100m. But dare suggest to any of those people that there should be a qualification standard in place, and stand back away from the eruption. John Just to clarify, has anyone drowned in a triathlon from being a sucky swimmer? Every report of anyone that died I have seen had some kind of complication that caused them to drown, heart attack, or something similar like what happened to this fellow. Sounds more like we need Dr's notes in order to compete with a clean bill of health and no family history of heart issues more than swim certifications. Yes people die from being a sucky swimmers all the time. The stress of the initial event causes heart attacks all the time. Stress becomes anxiety, anxiety becomes panic and whamo. How many marathon runners die in the first 20 minutes? They die late in the race. As an added bonus, the lifeguards are flooded with requests for help at the back of the pack and others who can swim are not taken care of. I run a swim clinic before a sprint race here and I am constantly amazed at what I see. Without fail I get a handful of swimmers who bail less than 50 yards into the practice swim because they can't go any further. Just like Hawaii requires that you have done a half, I think it would be great to vet the swim in some way. Really? All the time? It causes heart attacks all the time? Where are the sources to back this up? I don't disagree that requiring a half to do an IM would be a good idea, but saying that swimmers die "all the time" in triathlon, from being bad swimmers, from heart attacks, seems, well, incorrect. |
| 2009-05-27 9:15 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Champion 6503 NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL I always have the choice to plant my arse in front of the TV with a bucket of KFC and die the American way. I also have the choice to not get in the water if I am not comfortable or feeling like I can finish. I also have the choice to stick with pool swims. I also have the choice to wear this. I hope that someone would make an effort to save me if I was struggling in the water. I also hope that the same would happen if I were having a heart attack in a marathon. I also know that there is a chance that there will be no one there to save me at the exact moment that I need it. |
| 2009-05-27 10:03 PM in reply to: #2176931 |
| Champion 10471 Dallas, TX | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL trishie - 2009-05-27 6:19 PM bel83 - 2009-05-27 7:05 PM I just had a thought. And I have not had time to read all the responses here or the original posting, but does it say the family is sueing for money and how much? Could it be that they are sueing in order to get stricter regulations and requirements at Iron Man events to keep this from happening to someone else? IF I was doing an IM and I died due to some form of preventable negligence (again I don't even know if this case falls into that category) I might want my family to make a stink to get it changed so it never happened to someone again. But for Money though...I would not want them to sue for that. They are suing for $15K, if I remember correctly. It struck me as a low amount. You can't really sue for an "injunction" unless there is no other remedy .. I think... ... I need a civil attorney to jump in here. Plus, the courts do not have the authority, I don't think, to order a governing body to make changes to its laws. (Courts aren't supposed to legislate - just interpret law and apply) Per the article I read via the link posted... it's $75,000.... not $15,000. |
| 2009-05-27 10:34 PM in reply to: #2177229 |
| Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL newleaf - 2009-05-27 9:12 PM tjfry - 2009-05-27 9:59 PM dalessit - 2009-05-27 8:37 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 6:03 PM bachorb - 2009-05-27 2:54 PM . I personally think they should have some sort of qualifying system in place for ......click a mouse to register do a tri. Maybe this lawsuit will change that, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing. And yet, whenever anyone brings up the idea of a certification swim being necessary, people literally go off the deep end, talk about personal rights, legislation of leisure activity, etc. As a long time.......that there should be a qualification standard in place, and stand back away from the eruption. John Just to clarify, has anyone drowned in a triathlon from being a sucky swimmer? Every report of anyone that died I have seen had some kind of complication that caused them to drown, heart attack, or something similar like what happened to this fellow. Sounds more like we need Dr's notes in order to compete with a clean bill of health and no family history of heart issues more than swim certifications. Yes people die from being a sucky swimmers all the time. The stress of the initial event causes heart attacks all the time. Stress becomes anxiety, anxiety becomes panic and whamo. How many marathon runners die in the first 20 minutes? They die late in the race. As an added bonus, the lifeguards are flooded with requests for help at the back of the pack and others who can swim are not taken care of. I run a swim clinic before a sprint race here and I am constantly amazed at what I see. Without fail I get a handful of swimmers who bail less than 50 yards into the practice swim because they can't go any further. Just like Hawaii requires that you have done a half, I think it would be great to vet the swim in some way. Really? All the time? It causes heart attacks all the time? Where are the sources to back this up? I don't disagree that requiring a half to do an IM would be a good idea, but saying that swimmers die "all the time" in triathlon, from being bad swimmers, from heart attacks, seems, well, incorrect. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2009/03/triathlons-and-marathons-are-amazing-fitness-feats-of-fitness-but-neither-one-is-without-risks-dehydration-exhaustion-bro.html ..."but sudden deaths in triathlon were found to be about twice as high as in marathons"... That led study authors to theorize that during the swim — almost always in open water — competitors may have little opportunity to rest or signal for help. They also could be difficult to see by rescue workers, unlike in the biking or running legs."
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| 2009-05-27 10:45 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Expert 608 St. Louis | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL In mass starts you always have the options to wait 3-5 mins before you start. At an Endura Camps Ben Schoegel(?) said that is what his friend did and still qualified for Kona. |
| 2009-05-27 11:32 PM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Master 2665 The Whites, New Hampshire | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL I'm gonna bring up a perspective I haven't seen mentioned here - as a lifeguard. Scenario: You send your kid to summer camp. Every day, the kids are allowed to go swim in the lake owned by the camp at an established waterfront. Your kid drowns. Investigation happens. Turns out there was one lifeguard on duty for 100 kids in the water. You are seriously telling me you wouldn't sue? You absolutely SHOULD sue! Let's even change this scenario to sending your 18-yo to work at camp between college semesters. Remove the minor issue. You STILL should sue! But wait, it was purely voluntary to send the kid to camp! It was purely voluntary for the kid to get in the water! Does that make it okay? No way. Camps have insanely strict requirements not only for lifeguards but for additional trained "water watchers" per kid. If we didn't meet our established quotas, kids didn't get in the water. As in, we would not allow them to enter the waterfront area. As in, it's 98 degrees out and we tell kids they can't swim. The point is, what are the lifeguard-to-swimmer ratios, are they reasonable, and were they met. If they've got "a ton" of rescuers around, let's say that means there are 50 kayakers, divers, and people on shore. For 2000+ people. That is a ratio of 40 swimmers per lifeguard. You show me ANY guarded facility that is allowed to get away with those numbers. In addition, what are the requirements for being able to access individual swimmers? If you have a 100' solid undulating mass of bodies, it is not reasonable to expect a rescuer to be able to get into the middle of them in time. To summarize, the questions I ask when I read this is how many rescuers were on scene and how accessible were the swimmers. If you don't care about those questions, then please don't swim. You are only going to put the rescuers through a LOT of grief. I hope this brings about good change, in the form of staggered starts, channels, and more guards. |
| 2009-05-27 11:42 PM in reply to: #2176563 |
| Master 2665 The Whites, New Hampshire | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL tkd.teacher - 2009-05-27 4:38 PM The governing principle is called the Good Samaritan act. It's designed to protect medical people from lawsuits as long as they act (and this is a quote) "as a reasonable and prudent person would with similar training in similar circumstances". The medical staff on site can relinquish control to a higher medical authority, in this case it was probably paramedics on site, who heard her say "I'm a doctor, etc etc". They had the patient, were probably starting care, when the bystander MD arrived. (Although I don't know why the doc would be doing mouth to mouth, they should be directing the care, not necessarily performing it.) Intubation (putting a tube in the throat to breathe, for those unfamiliar) is considered an advanced, invasive technique. Basic EMT's are not taught this, paramedics are. (There was an EMT-I, intermediate EMT that could do it, but last I knew that cert was being phased out). Paramedics still cannot do these techniques without communication with their governing medical staff, usually an MD at an ER, since there are certain requirements for life support once some of these techniques are used (Such as intubation). They include a certain amount of time away from a hospital, other things like that. So, even if a paramedic in his civilian car has all the stuff to do an IV, he can't stop at a car accident and hang an IV bag, because he doesn't have contact with his governing body, and he can be hung out to dry in a bad way if something goes wrong. The visiting MD, while certified to do the technique, may or may not be authorized to do it, or licensed in the state. (Intubation is an advanced lifesaving skill {ALS}, and all doctors are not necessarily currently certified in it. It's a good bet your average doc in a family clinic is probably not ALS certified) I'm not saying the doctor was wrong in any way, nor am I implying anything that the paramedics did was wrong. Generally in a lawsuit, they name everybody that they can. If I was the executor/lawyer that brought the suit, and I knew that a bystander MD was the one that put the tube in, I'd be damned sure to name them just in case. (Although IIRC from reading, I think the last section was a blanket kind of thing naming "unknown persons"). John John, you've got some stuff right and some stuff wrong in here. First, most paramedics get doctors away from the scene asap. Standard joke is that if someone runs up to a scene and says, "I'm a doctor!" you say, "Great, go direct traffic." Paramedics have a higher level of training in the field - they trump doctors. As in, if a doc runs up and tries to take over for advanced care, the medic MUST say no. As an EMT-B, *I* trump doctors in the field! Now, if the MD was also an EMT-I or medic, that'd be different. Second, a paramedic sure as shootin' could get out of their car with an IV bag and start a line, as long as they do everything right. They do not need to contact medical control. I think what you are saying is they have to be part of an organization under the control of medical direction, but that is where Good Sam comes in. They can work outside their area as long as they follow protocol and act in good faith. They can't be licensed without being under the purvue of an organization, though, and if they aren't licensed, they could get into muddy (and hot) waters, though it does not necessarily rule out being able to perform the procedure. As an aside, whether or not EMT-Is can intubate is a state-by-state reg. EMT-Bs can do a form of intubation. "Intubation," in this case, is a little vague and could mean a couple different things. Sorry, just wanted to clear some of that up. Totally agree that they should have named the doc. Heck yeah. And I would imagine she thought about that as she responded. |
| 2009-05-28 2:02 AM in reply to: #2175921 |
| Expert 697 Northern CA | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL KSH - 2009-05-27 8:03 PM Per the article I read via the link posted... it's $75,000.... not $15,000. The filing document says 15,000. |
| 2009-05-28 4:50 AM in reply to: #2177426 |
| Expert 1170 Southern Pines, NC | Subject: RE: IM NA is being sued for death at IMFL John, you've got some stuff right and some stuff wrong in here. First, most paramedics get doctors away from the scene asap. Standard joke is that if someone runs up to a scene and says, "I'm a doctor!" you say, "Great, go direct traffic." Paramedics have a higher level of training in the field - they trump doctors. As in, if a doc runs up and tries to take over for advanced care, the medic MUST say no. As an EMT-B, *I* trump doctors in the field! Now, if the MD was also an EMT-I or medic, that'd be different. Hmmm.... I love when people bring up the "rules." I'm not an EMT, but I'm a surgeon with 6 years of experience--a large amount of that dedicated to trauma that most people will never see-- good thing roadside bombs, mortars, and RPGs aren't very common here in the US... I'm ACLS and PALS certified, an Advanced Trauma Life Support instructor, and graduated the US Army Combat Casualty Care Course. Sorry, I'll go back to directing traffic. I have nothing to offer in an emergency. My bad. Edited by DrPete 2009-05-28 4:52 AM |
| 2009-05-28 5:40 AM in reply to: #2177426 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by PennState 2009-05-28 5:49 AM |
| 2009-05-28 5:41 AM in reply to: #2177465 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-05-28 5:50 AM in reply to: #2177477 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-05-28 5:58 AM in reply to: #2177426 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by PennState 2009-05-28 5:58 AM |
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