Experior and Slornow's Winter Mentor Group-CLOSED (Page 4)

A lot of us have that very same issue.  I regularly combine workouts for the sake of time and convenience.  One of my favorites is to run to the pool, swim, then run back home.  (Yesterday I did a pool run followed by swimming.  I swam just to make Stu happy...)

The short answer to your question is that you should do whichever is harder first.  

So if you are planning on a hard run, do that, and then swim.  If the run will be easy, then do a hard swim first, followed by run.  Same goes for bike/swim.  In general, it is not a great idea to try to do two very hard workouts back to back.

The reason is that you get the intended benefit of a hard workout only if you actually do it hard, which will be difficult or impossible if you are already tired.  You want to feel fresh and rested going into the harder efforts.

While we're at it, let's dispel the notion that you get specific physiological benefits from combining workouts (aka 'bricks').  Biking after you swim, or running after you bike, do not generate specific physiological adaptations that allow you to do those things better.  This is not to say that you shouldn't do those types of workout -- they can be valuable for other reasons (pacing, learning what it feels like to bike after a long swim, building confidence, practicing nutrition, etc.).  But ideally, apart from the few bricks that we might do to work on pacing or nutrition, all of our workouts would stand alone, for the reason mentioned above -- they will be better quality.

But we live in the real world, and in the real world, combining sessions is sometimes the only way to get it done.  It is far better than simply skipping one session.

Welcome Bennet (again)!  San Diego -- birthplace of tri!  I'd say it's destiny for you...

Excellent list, Stu.  I actually do like the fact that the swim is there.  I've never actually done a duathlon, and even though I think I'd be pretty good at it, it doesn't have nearly the attraction for me as triathlon.

Now, I think I should say that although I've never been chased by a dog while swimming, I did once come eye to eye with a dolphin, and that experience scared the ... out of this Wisconsin boy.  And don't get me started on jellyfish.

But so as not to go negative here in the face of your excellent positivity, let me add that I will swim today again, for the THIRD time in 5 days.  That might be some sort of record for me.

I will add that my whole swim strategy has really changed in the 3 years that I've been really training for triathlons.  In my first year, I thought that since it was my strength, I should take advantage of it as much as possible.  That led me to some going out too fast and dying swims (HR spike) as well as some swims where I was relatively high up in the rankings.  But, especially in this last year, I found that by lowering my pace by about 5 secs/100, I came out of the water relaxed and, while lower in the rankings, that minute or so lost on the swim was easily gained back in the other disciplines by conservation of energy.  I really think the key to the swim for most of us is being relaxed as possible (not sure if that holds for podium types).  And I think that stems primarily from good technique and secondarily from training. 

I'm not sure if it is b/c I was a swimmer or if this applies more generally, but I also find that I can slack on swimming more easily than the other disciplines and that putting more time into biking and running relative to swimming pays dividends for me.  For those of you who are runners, does this apply as well?  Or is it essential to maintain running?  I find that within 2 or 3 weeks of starting up swim training, I'm at 90% or so of my capacity.  If I play that game in biking or running, it's like starting over and it ain't pretty. 

Dennis-a guy I know here locally did his first IM at IMFL in November and used "Be Iron Fit".  I picked up a copy of the book and it has some good information and plans for IM.  He ended up having a great day with consistent and solid times in S/B/R.  I think he finished right around 12 hours with a 4:15-20 run.......and he is not a runner.  Might be worth a look.

Randy 

I'm not a swimmer and this applies to me as well. Swimming is 90% technique so as long as you don't lose strength by slacking on swimming, you really won't lose any speed.  I haven't swam in 3 weeks but I bet I swim within 2 seconds/100 of my fully trained swim speed.

x2.  Swimming does have an important fitness component, but those with good technique especially will keep that aspect, which is huge.  

This is a good one.  (Don't take my word for it -- several people who are actually good at swimming and understand swim technique have told me that this guy gives a good demonstration.)

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D37Ye_ADQ30

Just a general question for the group.  How many of you train with a power meter?  I have been using one for a little over 1.5 years now and love it. 

I only ask the question because I want to know if there are many others that want to discuss power based training, goals, workouts, etc. 

Yep, for last 2+ years.  Have you tried the TrainerRoad workouts/program......very cool.  I need to do a FTP test before the first of the year but I dread those things.

Randy

Wow...I just briefly browsed about TrainerRoad and it looks like something right up my alley.  I'll have to do more research on that.  It could definately make trainer workouts more bearable...LOL.

I'm also dreading my first FTP test.  I probably won't do my first one till mid to late January though.

Stu, love the swim list!  Very timely since I'm back to trying to convince myself that I like swimming

Jason, no power for me, but I'm betting Dennis would love to discuss.  He recently got a power meter, and a new bike to go with it.

Blanda and Ceril, asthma must be really tough to deal with in the swim.  Can you carry a rescue inhaler during an open water swim?

Matthew, wow, that's a long way to the pool!

Michael & Randy, thanks so much for organizing us into one list!

Me - I have had a PT for a couple of years, and had an iBike before that (but didn't really like it).

I think the Trainer Road program offers some really cool options, but I've got a Tacx trainer (similar to CompuTrainer), so I'm geeked out enough in this regard.

As to discussing power, goals, FTP, etc, I'm all for it when the opportunities present themselves.  I have a straighforward (but difficult) goal - I'd like to get to 4watts/kg.  Last year I topped out at 3.6watts/kg and would love to get myself just a bit higher.  I need to get by behind back in the saddle and learn to suffer again, doing workouts at 80-85% just isn't going to add up to whole lot of improvement.  I'm planning on getting back into Jorge's winter plan, and restart where I had fallen off.

Neil - I'm still learning about power...but IME, the biggest benefits seemed to come from focusing my shorter rides on intervals in the 95-150% range.  I got my FTP up around 3.9 at the peak of this season.

That's what I'm not looking forward to...

I've had my PT for about 2-3 months.  I've done the Spienrvals 27 test a few times.  My latest test put my FTP at 205 with a power to weight of 2.73.  I've only been riding 8 months total so not too bad for a newbie.

I load all of my data into WKO.  Everything I know came from Training and Racing with a Power Meter.

I use Spinervals for most of my trainer rides but use TrainerRoads(just locked in the $7/mo) in addition to my Garmin.  I haven't done many of the TR workouts.  I like the larger display on my laptop.  I'm mostly focusing on endurance rides currently until I get a couple of century rides in training done over the next 2 months.  TR offers few endurance workouts.

With a low FTP I am having trouble working out my IM power.  The Endurance Nation 280-300 TSS for the bike doesn't hold well for somebody that will probably average 17mph or less on the bike(I averaged 17.5 for my HIM).  I'm prepared to just ride 65-75% ftp which I've done on many training rides and felt pretty good afterwards.

I have a wired PT.  I hope to go wireless some day, but right now I can't justify it.  So no TrainerRoad for me -- looks very cool though.  Instead, I train with Netflix...

At my peak this year I was just over 4W/kg, but I'm sure that I am very far below that now (at least 5lbs heavier, FTP is unknown but can't be good...).

PM is good for short intervals, but I found that it didn't actually change how I did intervals all that much.  It did change, in a big way, my long rides, and specifically, the second half of them.  (I was doing that part too easy.)  It also showed me just how bad I was at keeping relatively even power over the course of a race, and especially at just putting out anything like actual power on descents.  I've been working on that, but have a ways to go.

WOW!  Looks like a great group!  I've still got two pages of posts to catch up on but wanted to throw this out there.

Have a January 22 marathon.  Training is going ok - last couple of weeks have been difficult (logs are current), but I'm hanging in there.

Question is, my friends want me to sign up for a race on February 4th - they have 1/2 mary and 5K options (of course, the 10K isn't an option, which I would have picked).  Is two weeks too soon after the 26.2 to go 13.1?

I'm estimating about a week for recovery (i.e. - NO RUNNING!) then a couple of short runs the second week.  Since this is my first mary, I don't want to underestimate the recovery and certainly don't want to go into the start of tri training with an injury.

I personally wouldn't do it, unless I was planning to just take it very easy.  Even then, I'd think to myself "what am I doing?".  I do think it's a good way to get injured.  The thing is, even though your legs might begin to feel OK two weeks out, other bits are still recovering and vulnerable.  If you had done and recovered well from a dozen marathons in the past, it would be a different story (in large part because the marathon would do less damage), but this being your first, I think you should assume that there will be lots of 'hidden' (and some not so hidden...) damage that will leave you vulnerable for a while.

Hi Di - yep, I have a bunch of reading to do to catch up with this fast moving group as well, but saw your post and I definitely have an opinion having just ran my first marathon in November.  I'll just be blunt.  And if you're like me, you'll probably ignore the advice ;-)  I don't think a 13.1 would be either a good idea or much fun two weeks after the marathon.  Like you, I was thinking about doing a 13.1 on the rebound in early December (I think it was 4 weeks after, or maybe just 3).  Honestly, I'm just now getting back to thinking about running a 12 mile training run this weekend (about 6 weeks later).  And, let the record state that I generally felt pretty good after the marathon.  I'd go for the 5K to have fun and be with your friends, but I wouldn't run that hard either.

All that being said - have a blast with your first marathon - it's really an amazing experience.  I enjoyed mine so much more than I expected.  I hurt alot the last 6 miles, but I had a smile on my face most of the race! (btw, I am not much of a runner, but I keep trying!)

Stu

Di, congrats on nearing the starting line for your first full marathon!

Speaking of running...could you running gurus in the group share some wisdom with me?  All was going well running wise, until mile 9 of a half mary on 12/4, where I fell and sprained an ankle.  Followed that with 1.5 weeks in a boot, RICE, etc., then back to swimming, then walking, and started running a little this week.  Ankle is weak but not painful on short runs on nice flat surfaces.  How quickly is reasonable to plan on ramping back up and what does that look like (X% per week)?  Next half is 1/22 (this was originally going to be my "a" race), and another on 2/26.