Experior and Slornow's Spring/Summer Mentor Group-CLOSED (Page 4)

Mark -- I'll throw some ideas out there about pacing later tonight.  Right now, I'm off to try out a bike ride on my sore backside (followed by an 'easy' run, lol -- yeah, Jamie, we're all in different places wrt speed; I prefer to think in terms of easy and hard rather than fast or slow because 'easy' and 'hard' are concepts we can all relate to).

Thanks!!

I cannot relate to 'easy' 

I LOVE rock skipping.  I don't think I'm able to pass up an opportunity like that.  My boys and I used to do it for hours when we lived by the water.

I managed a short trainer ride this afternoon.  Lots of interruptions but nonetheless got it done.  Hope to get in a run tonight.  Looking over my logs I really have beefed up my run mileage this year.  With IM TX just around the corner, I want to focus heavier on the bike and swim this month.  I've heard many a triathlete say the way to get a stronger run is to get stronger on the bike.  Would like to hear others' thoughts on this....

Well, honestly I love to eat junk food and when training volume is high, so is my appetite.  I do regret eating this snack before the training. 

I believe the opposite holds true as well ... I can't really pinpoint if running helped me get faster on the bike or if biking helped me get faster on the run. 

The thing I do always hear people say or I read somewhere is that in order to get stronger on the bike you need to spend more time on the bike. In order to become a stronger runner you need to run more. I believe Hal Higdon had that in one of his marathon training plans somewhere ... 

Jimmy, since you have done a bunch of IMs, I imagine you already have a much better idea about the answer than I do!  But as I often struggle on the run, I'm of the opinion that along with the fact that I'm not a great runner, it is compounded by not really being in strong bike shape, even though relative to the other disciplines, my bike leg is reasonably "fast".  I think I train to be able to do the bike leg reasonably well, but not enough to have plenty left for the run.  I seem to be much farther off my 5 or 10K standalone running pace than others.  I'm hoping the trainer will help me get in a few more bike miles each week in the evenings and we'll see if that improves.  What's been your experience?

Michele, glad to have another early in life swimmer.  I wish I could swim as fast as I did in high school :-)  The running will come.  I now "enjoy" that as much as the other two disciplines, but it took awhile before I felt that way.

Had a pathetic short and slow run at the end of a long day today (but got in just as the sun set - beautiful evening here).  Probably wouldn't have done it except I knew I'd have to answer to the group! 

Have a great evening everyone!

Stu

On Pacing

Ways of Measuring Effort

Swim

By far the most common way of measuring effort in swimming is pace.  Especially in a pool, conditions tend to be more or less the same from one workout to the next (sometimes temperature is a factor though), so comparing paces from one workout to the next tends to make sense, with swimming.  I've heard of people measuring effort in the swim with a heart rate monitor, but frankly that sounds like a hassle to me.

Bike

In biking, our options are:  speed, RPE (rate of perceived exertion), heart rate, and power.  IMO, speed is the worst of these options, because bike speed varies enormously based on many conditions, some not under our control.  But on the same course, under the same conditions, it can make sense.  As a day-to-day measure, though, it isn't very useful.  (Biking on the trainer is a different kettle of fish -- keep temperature, cooling apparatus (fans), tires, tire pressure, and tension on the flywheel the same, and speed comparisons from one trainer ride to another do make sense.)  RPE is OK on the bike (more on RPE below).  Heart rate is a good and cheap option, but does require some self-education, especially about how conditions affect heart rate.  ($30 or so will buy you a cheap heart rate monitor.  Investing a bit more to get one that will keep track of average heart rate is not a bad idea. -- more on HRMs below.)  A power meter is considered by many to be the 'gold standard' for measuring effort on the bike.  I agree that they are probably the best measure, but I also think that what they will do for your training is a bit over-hyped.  They are also expensive.  A workable power meter will run you hundreds of dollars pretty much no matter how you slice it.  So make sure you are committed (or have lots of disposable income) before you go that route.

Run

In running, our options are:   speed, RPE, heart rate.  I'm more of a fan of speed in running than in biking, basically because conditions are somewhat less important, and easier to account for (the main factors being terrain and temperature).  With a little experience and attention to details, one can learn to factor in these conditions on the run.  I'm an even bigger fan of RPE on the run, because paying attention to RPE has some very helpful side-benefits (more below).  Heart rate is also pretty good, especially for longer runs.  Here too, even more so than on the bike, one has to learn how to factor in conditions (see below).

How to Use the Measures

Speed:

For the swim, knowing what pace is very challenging for you at each distance you normally swim (typically, 50, 100, 200, 400 and maybe longer intervals as well) will get you a long ways.  If you want to take it to the next level, do a threshold pace test:  swim 1000m (or 1000 yards) at a steady pace that leaves you exhausted at the end, and your 'threshold pace' is your average pace per hundred (meters or yards as the case may be).  What do we do with this knowledge?  See below!  (There are other t-pace tests, but they aren't as accurate, and if you can do them, you can do the 1K test so there's no reason not to.)

For the bike: Don't use speed as your day to day measure.  As I said above, it can be a useful metric on a fixed course where traffic is not a factor and conditions are the same in both of the trials.

For the run:  Use a recent race result and go here:  http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.php/site/calculator.  It will give you predicted race times (assuming you put in the training for the distance!) as well as suggested training paces.  My rule of thumb is to add 5-10s/mile for every 10 degrees above 70.  McMillan's run paces correspond to zones more or less like this:

Zone 1:'recovery jogs'

Zone 2:'easy runs'

Zone 3:'steady state runs'

Zone 4:'tempo runs'

Zone 5:1 mile cruise intervals

Zone 6:800m cruise intervals

RPE:

This is pretty much the same for all disciplines.  There are many RPE scales out there.  The Borg scale is probably the most commonly used among researchers, and has some decent science backing it up.  But I find it to be far too fine-grained for practical use.  The effective range (for training) is 6-20, and I'm not able to make such fine distinctions in how I feel.  (Was that run today a 12 or a 13?  I have no idea...)  I prefer a pretty simple scale of 1-6, which roughly corresponds to zones as determined by heart rate (or power on the bike).  (I try to keep all of my zones 1-6.)  Here is my scale:

1. A recovery effort.  I feel like I could do this all day
2. An easy effort which could be held for a long time.  Conversation (complete sentences!) is no problem.  I do not have to focus my attention to maintain this effort.  Swimming I am breathing every 3rd or 4th stroke.  Biking I am breathing every 3rd pedal stroke.  (I.e., right foot down breathe in, left foot down, right foot down, left foot down breathe out.)  Running I am breathing every 3rd or 4th foot-strike.  (The breathing thing is going to be different for different people.)
3. A moderate effort, but one that I could hold for more than an hour.  I sometimes have to refocus my attention to maintain this effort, but it isn't so hard that I can't also have my mind on other things.  I can talk, but complete sentences take a bit of preparation and stringing several of them together is probably not happening, at least not easily.  Swimming I am breathing every 2nd or 3rd stroke.  Biking I am breathing every 2nd or 3rd pedal stroke.  Running I am breathing every 3rd foot-strike, or every 2nd if I'm in high zone 3.
4. A hard effort that will leave me tapped out after an hour (i.e., I cannot maintain it for longer than that).  This is what people call a 'threshold effort'.  Swimming, I am breathing every stroke cycle.  Biking every 2nd pedal stroke.  Running every 2nd footstrike.  For the first while I might be able to hold this effort without much thought, but getting on past 20-25 minutes I have to focus on it.  Complete sentences are not in the game plan.
5. A very hard effort.  With each stroke or stride I can feel my muscles contracting sharply.  I cannot hold this effort for longer than 20 minutes or so. I no longer pay attention to breathing at this level -- it happens as necessary.
6. All out.  Every stroke or stride is a concentrated effort.  This is what people generally call 'VO2max'.  I can hold this effort for about 3-5 minutes max on a good day. Breathing -- I am gasping for air by the end.

Heart Rate

Do a lactate threshold test on both the bike and the run to determine your lactate threshold heart rate (LTHR -- it will be different on the bike and run).  One could do it on the swim as well, but as I said, I'd recommend using pace (or maybe RPE) on the swim, not heart rate.  The test goes like this (for both bike and run -- there are other scientifically tested protocols out there, but this one is fine).  Warm up at an easy pace for about 10-15 minutes.  Then go as hard as you can for 30 minutes.   The goal here is to go at a steady effort the whole way, and to finish feeling pretty sure that you could not continue at the same level of effort.  Your average heart rate over the last 20 minutes of that 30 minutes is in the ballpark of your LTHR.  If you haven't done this test before, be prepared to fail at it a few times before you get it right.  It is not easy.

Once you have your LTHR, you can determine zones based on LTHR.  I use the following (which, for me, correlates pretty well to the RPE zones above):

Run Zones

Zone 1 Less than 85% of LTHR
Zone 2 85% to 89% of LTHR
Zone 3 90% to 94% of LTHR
Zone 4 95% to 99% of LTHR
Zone 5 100% to 106% of LTHR
Zone 6 More than 106% of LTHR

Bike Zones

Zone 1 Less than 81% of LTHR
Zone 2 81% to 89% of LTHR
Zone 3 90% to 93% of LTHR
Zone 4 94% to 99% of LTHR
Zone 5 100% to 106% of LTHR
Zone 6 More than 106% of LTHR

Power

I'm going to skip this part.  If you have a power meter, you should read up on testing, zones, etc.  I can give people some references if they want. but probably if you've invested in a PM you've already done that research.

Pacing your Workouts

So how do we use the information to stick to appropriate efforts in our workouts?  Let's take them one by one.

Swim

Most if not all swim workouts should consist of a lot of pretty hard efforts.  Most triathlons -- even sprints -- are 'long distance' events in the world of swimming, so we should be working on improving our threshold pace.  This means doing a lot of sets where we swim at or faster than threshold pace (zones 4 and 5 by RPE), on just enough rest to continue without breaking form too badly.  So, for example, if your threshold pace is 2:00/100, then try a set where you swim 100s at 1:55, leaving on 2:05 to 2:15.  That will be a challenging, but doable, set.  Occasionally swim harder.  Rarely swim easier.  Swimming rarely leads to injury, so you can afford to go pretty hard in your swims.

Bike

Like swimming, biking does not generally cause injuries, though there is some potential for it.  Unless you are biking huge volume, you do not need recovery rides.  And long easy (zone 2) rides are generally not very valuable.  On long rides, try to stick to zone 3, even with bouts of zone 4.  On shorter rides, stick to zones 3-6 -- zone 3 for a 'steady state' ride greater than an hour, zone 4 for for a steady state ride of less than an hour; or do some intervals or hill repeats in zones 5-6.  (Longer intervals, like 10-20 minute intervals, are better done in zone 4.)  If you're feeling particularly sluggish, go ahead and do zone 2 and you'll probably feel better the next day.

Run

This is the one most commonly messed up (including by yours truly).  In general, people go much too hard far too often.  Most running should be zone 2.  (You shouldn't need to do much if any zone 1 running unless you are running very high mileage.  Reserve zone 1 for warm-up and cool-down.)  Running in zone 2 means running at a pace that feels comically slow -- this is true no matter how fast you run.  You might even have to walk to maintain zone 2.  That's OK!  So why run in zone 2?  Because it is running, and running more is almost always better than running less.  Our bodies just cannot handle a whole lot of running above zone 2 -- it leads to injury pretty quickly.  So we get the volume we need by keeping it easy.  On days when you are feeling particularly good, allow yourself to sip into zone 3.  Don't make it a habit, though!

You've probably all heard of the 10% rule ("more of a guideline than a rule") -- don't increase mileage more than 10% per week.  I think there's a much more important rule, which I call the 5% rule:  don't let more than 5% of your running per week be above zone 4.  For many many people, this 'speedwork' (I call it that because lots of people like to call it that) is best accomplished by simply doing 5-10 strides of around 30s (with plenty of easy running between) a few times per week.  These are done at around 5K pace.  For many people, this amount of faster running will already amount to 5% of total running (by distance) per week.  Job done.  Don't do more!

It is important to remember that the primary benefit of 'speedwork' for most people is neuro-muscular, not cardio-vascular.  You aren't primarily improving fitness -- you are teaching your body how to run fast.  So we need to get it out of our heads that we aren't learning to run fast unless we arrive home about to collapse.  My rule of thumb is that for the vast majority of runs, I should arrive home feeling like I could go out and do the same thing again.

OK, so much for my missive on pacing.  Sometimes somebody asks a question that strikes a nerve and I get motivated to write some long boring thing.  Maybe it is helpful to some.  (I'm a professional academic -- I have this tendency...)

I could write another about how to get better at running in long course events, but I'll restrain myself.  The short version is that I think both bike and run are crucial.  You need the bike fitness to get through the bike fresh enough to run.  You need the run fitness to be able to take advantage of that freshness and do something with it.  Case in point:  going in to ITU worlds last year I had great run fitness.  My bike fitness was questionable (OK, it was bad).  The bike course was extremely difficult.  I arrived at the end of the bike toasted, and eventually fell apart on the run despite great run fitness.

On the other side:  I have decent bike fitness right now and had a pretty good ride in my most recent tri.  But my run fitness is lacking (coming back from injury) and ran almost 30s/mile slower on the course than I did last year.

Michael-currently the early leader for longest BT post of 2012   Just kidding.  Tons of great information. Very informative. Thanks for taking the time to lay all of that out. 

Randy

I like that. Already feeling that I need two though: One for competing, one for lazy bike rides with the family.  

Long, long day ... crazy weather today in Dallas ... a few tornadoes touched down. I was able to get a 3.2 mile run done in between a hectic day. I have a running related question, especially running with a foot pod. I invested in the Garmin 910XT a few weeks back and decided to buy the foot pod and the bike speed/cadence sensor. 

On my run today (inside on the treadmill) I jogged for 5 minutes to warm up. I then restarted the treadmill to start from scratch. Hit start on the treadmill and on the Garmin. After 25 minutes and 7 seconds my Garmin showed 3.2 miles (according to the foot pod) but my treadmill was about 0.2 miles behind. So I stopped the Garmin and continued running until the treadmill showed 3.2 miles which was at 27 minutes and 9 seconds. 

Here is my question ... what result do i take? The foot pod? The treadmill? An average? Just wondering if anyone got any advise on this. 

Thanks and good night ... need to sleep for a 4am 60 bike trainer ride. 

Well, you're using two different measurements both of which can be off by a bit.  the good news is:  you got in a good workout.  Focus on that.  Split the difference between the two different measurements and record it as such.  But don't lose track o the important fact:  You got in a good run!

Wow!  Thanks Michael for taking the time to explain pacing.  I have to admit that I'm fairly simple in how I do things, and I use RPE as my main gauge.  I have a HRM and have used it quite a bit, but I feel as though RPE works best.  I've thought about a power meter, but then have come to accept that I'm really not too tech savvy, and don't believe I would use it correctly.  Besides, (for me) getting too technical would detract from the pure fun I have just getting out there and training.

Just finished a 10 mile run and am going to bed. 

I always forget about how simple it can be ... yes I got an awesome workout in ... I'll try not to focus too much on the numbers ... its hard because that's what I am used. 

Also good morning! Just got done with a 45 minute bike trainer ride ... now off to work.

Good morning! Early treadmill workout for me with some short hard intervals.

Lots of great discussion so far....looks like a top notch group!

Randy 

Morning all.  Busy day for me today.  I was able to ride yesterday, but it sort of hurt.  Actually, running was worse, but I got in an easy three miles.  We're headed for the mountains this weekend, which means great riding but no swimming (the lake is still WAY too cold!), so another day at the pool for me, once I get free from this thing called work.

Have a great one everyone.

One thing we didn't mention:   Occasionally (we try not to let this happen, but we're not perfect) a question will slip through the cracks.  We aren't ignoring you!  Please don't hesitate to re-ask if your question goes unanswered on the first ask.

Thanks Michael! That is an awesome post.  It put the issue of pacing into perspective for me.

It will be much easier to move from my current binary RPE scale to yours which I find to be very understandable (and practical to boot).

Looks like I have some tough baseline sessions to plan - soon!

Good luck with it Jason!  Tapering always makes me antsy too (which is why I rarely do it...).  Just keep telling yourself it's for the best.

Pacing/measurements-Michael really did a great job laying out all the options.  Whatever method you use in measuring yourself be consistent.  Thats the best way to get a true measure of your progress.  We can't always duplicate the conditions but try to use the same protocal so you are comparing apples to apples.

Everyone has races of varying distances planned.  Curious as to how each person is preparing.  Do you follow a plan like available here on BT, go it alone, book/canned plan or use a coach?

I started with a coach in January and am committed through June.  Pleased with results so far.  I am doing a good bit less volume than when I was on my own last year but my workouts tend to be much more focused with more intensity.  Primarily went the coached route as it includes 2 train with the coaches sessions each month and one of the coaches is a top notch swim instructor.  Problem is they are 1.5 hours away and I'm not taking full advantage of my 2 sessions each month.  I do like the workouts they plan and particularly with running and swimming they have me pushing myself more than I would be doing on my own.

Randy    

So I started with Triathlons last year (two events). This year is going to be my first full triathlon season. I don't have  what most athletes call the "A race". I am trying to accomplish a PR for every race I enter.
With that said I really do need a plan that I can follow but I just don't think I have found the one yet that fits my needs.
I used to think that I should work out as hard as I can every time I work out; run as fast(hard) as I can every time I run; bike as fast(hard) as I can every time I ride the bike.
The more I read about triathlon training I realize I might be training wrong and I am not training to my full potential.
Most of the issues that I have are due to inexperience and I hope that through this mentor group I can alleviate some of them. Zone training is a new way of training for me and is something I will have to get used to. Up to this point there is just one zone! Full on pace!

A coach will be something I look into the future ... maybe next season but as long as I see progress myself I don't know If I want to spend the resources.